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  • JohnE
    replied
    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Originally posted by Dayle View Post
    I was taught many years ago it is not wise to base a doctrine on one verse.
    It seems that the coming seven year tribulation period in only based on Daniel 9:27.
    Can anyone give me Scripture, other than Daniel 9:27, that teaches a coming seven year tribulation period?
    You were taught well. Daniel 9 is about Jesus, NOT the AC. Jesus made a covenant with many. Jesus IS God's sacrifice and drink offering who was taken away in the midst of the seven. If you simply add up the times given in Revelation, you will find more than 7 years. Moses actually gave us the length of the tribulation, though it isn't easy to get. It's 50 years, not 7.

    Leave a comment:


  • ForHisglory
    replied
    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Originally posted by Keraz View Post
    We do know the two parties to this future peace treaty:
    Daniel 9:27 says it is the 'prince', the one who will put a stop to the Temple worship and sit in the Temple claiming to be God. 2 Thess 2:4 He will be the leader of the One World Govt, Daniel 7:23
    I know why people claim it is a One World Government, however when we read this:
    Rev 16:12* The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east.*
    Rev 16:13* And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs.*
    Rev 16:14* For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.*

    It highlights that there are other kings, who will assemble, which means that the whole world will not be a One World Government.
    Elsewhere we are told that 10 kings will give him power.
    That is NOT the whole world.
    Rather what Dan 7:23 shows is that his power will be the SOLE superpower. This is a bit different to a OWG.

    The other party are the leaders of the new nation in all of the holy Land, as prophesied in Isaiah 62:1-5 and in many other scriptures. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-27
    Isaiah 28:14-15 refers to them as you arrogant rulers of this people in Jerusalem. They are the leaders of the 'many', the majority of the citizens of Beulah who do agree to this treaty, but the Lord calls it a Treaty of Death, as they no longer trust His for their protection. Those who do maintain their trust in God, described in Daniel 11:32b-35, will be taken to a place of safety when Beulah is conquered after 3 1/2 years. Those faithful people will not experience the Great Tribulation, kept safe in a far away place for that 1260 days, Revelation 12:14, but those Christians the 'many', who did agree to it, must remain. Revelation 12:17, Zechariah 14:1-2
    Nope, the other parties are NOT the leaders of a new nation. Isaiah 62:1 - 5 certainly does NOT support your idea. It has Zion in the SINGULAR and nations, which are NOT part of Zion in the plural.
    Isaiah 28 is NOT speaking of the many of Dan 9:27. The many refers to many nations, not individuals.
    Dan 11:32 - 35 happened a long time ago and they were NOT protected, nor taken to a place of safety.
    Where we do agree is that those who turn to the Lord and heed His words will be taken to a place of safety for 1260 days.

    Leave a comment:


  • Keraz
    replied
    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I think APART from pretrib adherents MOST agree there is NO 7 year GT period. Even amongst those, many would recognise that there is really only a 42 month GT period.
    However there is NO seven year treaty for peace between the leader of a one world government and the leaders of a new nation in the holy land. That is simply speculation.
    What we ARE told is that there will be an AGREEMENT (covenant) of some kind, which will be made for 7 years and that mid way through that 7 years the offerings and sacrifices are taken away.
    No who the agreement is made between is difficult to be precise about. This is based of Dan 9:27 and the one who gets the agreement to be made seems to be the same person who is the desolator.
    However this is made with many and the MOST likely group this refers to is NOT a single nation, but the group of 10 nations who ALL give their power to that person.
    We do know the two parties to this future peace treaty:
    Daniel 9:27 says it is the 'prince', the one who will put a stop to the Temple worship and sit in the Temple claiming to be God. 2 Thess 2:4 He will be the leader of the One World Govt, Daniel 7:23

    The other party are the leaders of the new nation in all of the holy Land, as prophesied in Isaiah 62:1-5 and in many other scriptures. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-27
    Isaiah 28:14-15 refers to them as you arrogant rulers of this people in Jerusalem. They are the leaders of the 'many', the majority of the citizens of Beulah who do agree to this treaty, but the Lord calls it a Treaty of Death, as they no longer trust His for their protection. Those who do maintain their trust in God, described in Daniel 11:32b-35, will be taken to a place of safety when Beulah is conquered after 3 1/2 years. Those faithful people will not experience the Great Tribulation, kept safe in a far away place for that 1260 days, Revelation 12:14, but those Christians the 'many', who did agree to it, must remain. Revelation 12:17, Zechariah 14:1-2

    Leave a comment:


  • ForHisglory
    replied
    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Originally posted by Keraz View Post
    Continuing on from #247:

    The thread diversion I referred to is; off the OP subject.
    I will state again that there is no 'seven year Tribulation period'. There will be a 'seven year treaty for peace' between the leader of the One World Govt and the leaders of the new nation in the holy Land. This treaty will be broken at the halfway point, by the armies of the OWG taking over Jerusalem and bringing the Christians into subjection. Daniel 11:31-35
    However half of the Christians, those who refused to agree with that treaty, will be taken to a place of safety on earth for the final 1260 days of this age. Which will be the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, culminating in the Battle of Armageddon, won by Jesus, by the Sword of His Word.
    I think APART from pretrib adherents MOST agree there is NO 7 year GT period. Even amongst those, many would recognise that there is really only a 42 month GT period.
    However there is NO seven year treaty for peace between the leader of a one world government and the leaders of a new nation in the holy land. That is simply speculation.
    What we ARE told is that there will be an AGREEMENT (covenant) of some kind, which will be made for 7 years and that mid way through that 7 years the offerings and sacrifices are taken away.
    No who the agreement is made between is difficult to be precise about. This is based of Dan 9:27 and the one who gets the agreement to be made seems to be the same person who is the desolator.
    However this is made with many and the MOST likely group this refers to is NOT a single nation, but the group of 10 nations who ALL give their power to that person.

    Leave a comment:


  • Keraz
    replied
    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Continuing on from #247:

    The thread diversion I referred to is; off the OP subject.
    I will state again that there is no 'seven year Tribulation period'. There will be a 'seven year treaty for peace' between the leader of the One World Govt and the leaders of the new nation in the holy Land. This treaty will be broken at the halfway point, by the armies of the OWG taking over Jerusalem and bringing the Christians into subjection. Daniel 11:31-35
    However half of the Christians, those who refused to agree with that treaty, will be taken to a place of safety on earth for the final 1260 days of this age. Which will be the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, culminating in the Battle of Armageddon, won by Jesus, by the Sword of His Word.

    Leave a comment:


  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post

    Is God the Father immortal? Absolutely not. He is eternal not immortal.
    The Father is both. Immortal means one cannot die and that applies to the Father and all of the Trinity.

    Leave a comment:


  • Keraz
    replied
    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Keraz said,
    "The question being discussed, [the usual thread diversion!] is when is immortality conferred?*"

    So, now you choose to deflect to a diversionary tactic, (let's go back to the usual thread), NOW that scripture refutes your claim to deferred immortality, even though you never brought in that defense tactic when you felt that you had the upper hand with FHG (even though you didn't)? If diversionary dialog was acceptable then, pleading it now, is just a (xxx) out on your part.

    Be Blessed,
    The PuP
    This is so confused and misread of what I posted, I just shake my head in wonder.

    Your scriptures in #245 do not prove that immortality is given at the Return or even glorification of our bodies; whatever that means.
    The few scriptures that we do have about the Millennium period, inform us that life will go on much the same as now. People will live longer, as they did before Noah's time. No one will be immortal excepting Jesus, our King.
    Only at the end of the Millennium will the Judgment take place and everyone who has ever lived will stand before God and it will be a simple exercise; if your name is Written in the Book of Life, living with God for Eternity will be yours, if not - its into the Lake of Fire and annihilation.

    Pretty straightforward really. Any other ideas are a delusion and unscriptural nonsense.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pesachpup
    replied
    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Keraz said,
    "The question being discussed, [the usual thread diversion!] is when is immortality conferred?*"

    So, now you choose to deflect to a diversionary tactic, (let's go back to the usual thread), NOW that scripture refutes your claim to deferred immortality, even though you never brought in that defense tactic when you felt that you had the upper hand with FHG (even though you didn't)? If diversionary dialog was acceptable then, pleading it now, is just a (xxx) out on your part.

    Be Blessed,
    The PuP

    Leave a comment:


  • Pesachpup
    replied
    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Originally posted by Keraz View Post
    No: we find the final Judgment in Revelation 20:11-15.

    The question being discussed, [the usual thread diversion!] is when is immortality conferred?
    2 Timothy 4, 1 Cor 15, or anywhere else do not specify when that happens.
    I contend, and no one can deny it; that it cannot be given before the Book of Life is opened. Which will be at the GWT, after the Millennium.

    This truth is vehemently opposed by those who want God to take them to heaven, who knows when, but most 'rapture to heaven' believers want it before anything nasty occurs.
    Going to heaven necessitates a change from an earthly body to a spiritual being, which must be an eternal one. Therefore the 'rapture' believers must have their immortality before the GWT. I see this as an extremely pretentious and unbelievable idea and is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

    When Jesus Returns, He will bring our rewards with Him, Matthew 16:27, these do not include immortality.
    Sorry, but our bodies will be changed into the likeness of his glorified body at his appearing.

    *[[Phi 3:21]] KJV* Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    *[[1Ti 6:16]] KJV* Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    *[[2Th 2:8]] KJV* And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness(epiphaneia) of his coming:

    Is God the Father immortal? Absolutely not. He is eternal not immortal. When 1 Tim 6:16 says that ONLY Christ is immortal, who dwells in the unapproachable light of the eternal God, his BODY odds the kind of body that we will receive at his appearing when he comes to destroy the man of sin BY his appearance... His epiphaneia!
    DO YOU LOVE THE THOUGHT OF HIS APPEARING?

    Be Blessed,
    The PuP

    Leave a comment:


  • Keraz
    replied
    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    There is no allusion or reference to "the final judgment, after the millennium..." in 2 Tim 4:1. He only speaks of his appearing (epiphaneia) and his kingdom. Paul goes on to say that "IN THAT DAY" in verse 8, that he will give to ALL THAT LOVE HIS APPEARING (epiphaneia) a crown of righteousness.
    No: we find the final Judgment in Revelation 20:11-15.

    The question being discussed, [the usual thread diversion!] is when is immortality conferred?
    2 Timothy 4, 1 Cor 15, or anywhere else do not specify when that happens.
    I contend, and no one can deny it; that it cannot be given before the Book of Life is opened. Which will be at the GWT, after the Millennium.

    This truth is vehemently opposed by those who want God to take them to heaven, who knows when, but most 'rapture to heaven' believers want it before anything nasty occurs.
    Going to heaven necessitates a change from an earthly body to a spiritual being, which must be an eternal one. Therefore the 'rapture' believers must have their immortality before the GWT. I see this as an extremely pretentious and unbelievable idea and is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

    When Jesus Returns, He will bring our rewards with Him, Matthew 16:27, these do not include immortality.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pesachpup
    replied
    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Originally posted by Keraz View Post
    2 Timothy 4:1-2 Before God and before Christ Jesus, who is to Judge the living and the dead; I charge you solemnly by His coming appearance and His reign, to proclaim the Message...…..
    This instruction to us, is to do the work of spreading the Gospel. Paul reinforces the necessity and the urgency of doing that by referring to the coming Return, His future reign and the final Judgment, after the Millennium as Revelation 20:11-15 plainly states.

    John 5:24-29 says: the dead will hear His voice and those who are righteous will rise to life [Eternal] and those who have done wrong will rise to Judgment. [the Lake of fire]
    This only happens at the GWT, after the 1000 years of Jesus' Reign. Confirmed by Daniel 12:1-3....everyone whose names are entered in the Book of Life.....will shine like the stars forever.
    There is no allusion or reference to "the final judgment, after the millennium..." in 2 Tim 4:1. He only speaks of his appearing (epiphaneia) and his kingdom. Paul goes on to say that "IN THAT DAY" in verse 8, that he will give to ALL THAT LOVE HIS APPEARING (epiphaneia) a crown of righteousness. He is talking about a glorification to a sinless body of flesh. He is not referring to what happens later, after the kingdom comes, but is referring to THAT DAY when the kingdom comes. The crown of righteousness is one of the three known eternal aspects of the arrival of the kingdom. They are: righteousness, peace, and joy in the holy ghost. The Blessed hope is the reward that Jesus will give to ALL that love his appearing. Luke says that the kingdom of God is the kingdom that the Father has appointed unto the Son, Luke 22:29-30, that the apostles will sit down with Jesus in. Luke also says(in the body of the Olivet Discourse) that the kingdom comes when "all these things takes place". There is no resurrection of the damned in the O.D. But the end of the matter is the coming of our Lord.

    Be Blessed,
    The PuP

    Leave a comment:


  • Keraz
    replied
    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Do you consider the following scripture to NOT pertain to the 2nd coming?

    2 Timothy 4:1*

    BBE*I give you orders, before God and Christ Jesus, who will be the judge of the living and the dead, and by his revelation and his kingdom;

    EasyEnglish*When Christ Jesus comes to rule as king, he will decide about all the people. He will decide about the people who are alive. He will decide also about the people who have died. He will decide what should happen to them. He will decide that because of what each person has done during their life. Because of this, I am speaking very seriously to you. God and Christ know that I am telling you this. So, I tell you to do this, which is your duty.

    ISV*In the presence of God and the Messiah Jesus, who is going to judge those who are living and those who are dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I solemnly appeal to you

    KJVLite*I charge*theetherefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    NET*I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is going to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:

    NHEB*I command you therefore before God and of Christ Jesus,*a*who will judge the living and the dead, and by*b*his appearing and his kingdom:

    SLT*I call to witness before God there fore, and the Lord Jesus Christ, being about to judge the living and the dead according to his appearance and his kingdom;

    WEB*I command you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his Kingdom:

    YLT*I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign--

    Is not the [all] judgment of Christ the resurrection of life and damnation?

    Verse list:
    Joh 5:27-29 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Be Blessed,
    The PuP
    2 Timothy 4:1-2 Before God and before Christ Jesus, who is to Judge the living and the dead; I charge you solemnly by His coming appearance and His reign, to proclaim the Message.....
    This instruction to us, is to do the work of spreading the Gospel. Paul reinforces the necessity and the urgency of doing that by referring to the coming Return, His future reign and the final Judgment, after the Millennium as Revelation 20:11-15 plainly states.

    John 5:24-29 says: the dead will hear His voice and those who are righteous will rise to life [Eternal] and those who have done wrong will rise to Judgment. [the Lake of fire]
    This only happens at the GWT, after the 1000 years of Jesus' Reign. Confirmed by Daniel 12:1-3....everyone whose names are entered in the Book of Life.....will shine like the stars forever.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheDivineWatermark
    replied
    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Pesachpup, the following was too much [volume] for me to quote here, but I read through about the first part (covering up to where he began covering vv.3-4) which was only about "one inch's worth" on the scroll bar (per my screen)... and if I understand him correctly, this is also how I view that verse you speak of and are inquiring about (it takes careful reading though O.O ) :

    https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/2_timothy/4.htm (William Kelly on 2 Timothy 4, especially v.1)

    Leave a comment:


  • Pesachpup
    replied
    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Originally posted by Keraz View Post
    The people Judged at the GWT are every person that has ever been born. Revelation 20:12-13 makes that clear. Even Daniel 12:13, will stand before God then.

    We Christians do have the hope of the Promise of Eternal life. We will receive it when the Book of life is opened, not before.
    Peter and Paul DO NOT say all the dead in Christ will rise at Jesus' Return. You fail to explain how or why every Christian could rise then. Our names may have been Written in the Book of Life at our conversion, but many scriptures say a name can be erased because of sin or backsliding. We have all seen it happen.
    Therefore; there must be a judgment and the ONLY time we see that for individuals, is at the GWT, AFTER the Millennium.

    1 Peter 4:12 also says there will be a time of testing for everyone. A fiery Day that will test everyone for their faith in God. Not happened yet.
    Do you consider the following scripture to NOT pertain to the 2nd coming?

    2 Timothy 4:1*

    BBE*I give you orders, before God and Christ Jesus, who will be the judge of the living and the dead, and by his revelation and his kingdom;

    EasyEnglish*When Christ Jesus comes to rule as king, he will decide about all the people. He will decide about the people who are alive. He will decide also about the people who have died. He will decide what should happen to them. He will decide that because of what each person has done during their life. Because of this, I am speaking very seriously to you. God and Christ know that I am telling you this. So, I tell you to do this, which is your duty.

    ISV*In the presence of God and the Messiah Jesus, who is going to judge those who are living and those who are dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I solemnly appeal to you

    KJVLite*I charge*theetherefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    NET*I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is going to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:

    NHEB*I command you therefore before God and of Christ Jesus,*a*who will judge the living and the dead, and by*b*his appearing and his kingdom:

    SLT*I call to witness before God there fore, and the Lord Jesus Christ, being about to judge the living and the dead according to his appearance and his kingdom;

    WEB*I command you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his Kingdom:

    YLT*I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign--

    Is not the [all] judgment of Christ the resurrection of life and damnation?

    Verse list:
    Joh 5:27-29 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Be Blessed,
    The PuP

    Leave a comment:


  • ForHisglory
    replied
    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Originally posted by Keraz View Post
    You ask: Which Christians do not belong to Christ? Quote FHG.

    Keraz says: Probably about half, maybe more people who call themselves Christian, but are not in truth and Spirit. We know this from our own experience and from Jesus, who said: Many I tell you; will say Lord, Lord; we did good things in Your Name, but I will say to them: I never knew you.
    So your insistence of 'all' Christians, alive and dead, made immortal at Jesus Return, is quite wrong and unscriptural.
    Actually simply because someone says "Lord, Lord" does NOT make them a Christian. A Christian is ONLY one who is IN Christ.
    The others may think they are a Christian but that does NOT make them a Christian.
    EVERY SINGLE person who is IN Christ is a Christian. No one else is.

    You are getting desperate to say Christians are 'glorified at His appearing". Philippians 3:21 says this will happen when He has made all things subject to Himself.
    And when does that happen? 1 Corinthians 15:25 For Jesus is destined to reign until God has put all enemies under His feet. AFTER the Millennium.
    Not desperate. I quoted scripture.
    You however have misquoted scripture:
    Php 3:20* But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,*
    Php 3:21* who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

    This does NOT state that the transformation is AFTER He has made all things subject to Himself. It states tha the SAME power by which He will do this is the power by which He will transform us.
    The timing though stated is when He comes, for this is what we await.

    1 Cor 15:25 occurs AFTER 1 Cor 15:23 and 24, which means that the transformation of US occurs BEFORE the end.

    It is perfectly valid to appeal to logic, even though scripture is proof of my claim that immortality is not conferred upon any human until the GWT and the Book of Life is opened, is clearly Written. Life during the Millennium will be wonderful, but death will still occur, in the natural way and by accidents. Having people who cannot die then, is anomalous and would create a very peculiar situation. Simply not possible and will not be the case.
    Without LOGIC how can you understand the words that are written. I haven't said don;t use LOGIC.
    However you have ZERO scripture saying that NO immortality is conferred UNTIL the GWT.
    Contrary to YOUR position I have an abundance of scriptures which state CLEARLY and UNEQUIVOCALLY that those who are IN Christ receive immortality AT His return, and to which you have NO answer. Instead of engaging any of those scriptures to show that it is not at His return, you deflect and divert to other scriptures. Yet those also do NOT say what you claim.
    I agree with you on this:
    Life during the Millennium will be wonderful, but death will still occur, in the natural way and by accidents.

    However those deaths are of mortals and NOT those who were given immortality AT the FIRST resurrection.

    Leave a comment:

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