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Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

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  • #16
    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Some versions do say dragon, others say I ,or he stood. Some omit the verse altogether.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%2013:1
    The way I look at it is like this. Take the following for example.

    Revelation 10:8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
    9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
    10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
    11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

    What this seems to show is that John is literally interacting with his surrounding at the time. The text has him seeing these angels then going up to one of these angels and taking the little book out of the angel's hand. If that is all meaning in a literal sense of some kind, why would it be so unreasonable to see him interacting with his surrounding in Rev 13:1, where he literally might be standing on a shore somewhere at the time?

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    • #17
      Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

      Originally posted by divaD View Post
      The way I look at it is like this. Take the following for example.

      Revelation 10:8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
      9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
      10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
      11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

      What this seems to show is that John is literally interacting with his surrounding at the time. The text has him seeing these angels then going up to one of these angels and taking the little book out of the angel's hand. If that is all meaning in a literal sense of some kind, why would it be so unreasonable to see him interacting with his surrounding in Rev 13:1, where he literally might be standing on a shore somewhere at the time?
      Because it is the dragon who is doing something, and John then reporting what John saw.
      The simple point is that in the Greek the word for stood is the THIRD person singular, which should therefore mean "he" and NOT "I".

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      • #18
        Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

        Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
        The oldest translation KJV says John. So how did they think it John and some 300+ years later now some think it is a completely different person?
        The KJV is NOT the oldest translation.
        Have you not heard of Tyndale or Wycliffe?

        More importantly we don;t rely on a translation, but on what is in the actual Greek.

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        • #19
          Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

          Originally posted by divaD View Post
          I do at least admit what you submit here makes sense. Whether you are correct or not, I haven't fully made my mind up about yet.
          The question would be what sort of interaction is there between John and the beast, and is there any between the dragon and the beast?
          For me it is the dragon calling forth the beast and then giving the beast his power, whilst John simply observes this.

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          • #20
            Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

            Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
            Because it is the dragon who is doing something, and John then reporting what John saw.
            The simple point is that in the Greek the word for stood is the THIRD person singular, which should therefore mean "he" and NOT "I".


            Are you meaning histemi? My Strong's has stood in Rev 13:1 as histemi

            histemi
            his'-tay-mee
            a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively):--abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare tiqhmi - tithemi 5087.

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            • #21
              Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

              Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
              The question would be what sort of interaction is there between John and the beast, and is there any between the dragon and the beast?
              For me it is the dragon calling forth the beast and then giving the beast his power, whilst John simply observes this.
              Exactly. We agree again, That's twice I one hr A new record.
              And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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              • #22
                Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

                Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                For me it is the dragon calling forth the beast and then giving the beast his power, whilst John simply observes this.
                I definitely see the logic in what you are concluding. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Still have to make up my mind eventually as to whether I agree you are correct or not though.

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                • #23
                  Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

                  Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                  The KJV is NOT the oldest translation.
                  Have you not heard of Tyndale or Wycliffe?

                  More importantly we don;t rely on a translation, but on what is in the actual Greek.
                  Well I am doing some research on the matter. One thing for sure is the following...

                  "It should be noted that in neither the Latin nor any Greek manuscript does the word "dragon" appear in the text numbered as verse 12:18. The NASB and other NA-based versions sometimes insert it so that the verse makes more sense on its own."

                  The KJV does not have a verse 18 as they include it in 13:1. The greek word for stand has been found in both versions first and third person. It does appear the newer translations insert dragon and the third person. More investigation to come.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

                    Where is the dragon located at the beginning of the 42 months?

                    Is he in the pit? And if in the pit how can he be also standing on the seashore??

                    Rev 12
                    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

                    Evidence that the dragon is in the pit at the start of the 42 months it that an entity come up from the pit after the 42 months.

                    Rev 11
                    7 And when they shall have finished their testimony (42 months), the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

                    This has to be the dragon coming up no one else. Thus the dragon cannot be also standing on the shore at the start of the 42 months he is in the pit!!!!

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                    • #25
                      Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

                      Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                      Well I am doing some research on the matter. One thing for sure is the following...

                      "It should be noted that in neither the Latin nor any Greek manuscript does the word "dragon" appear in the text numbered as verse 12:18. The NASB and other NA-based versions sometimes insert it so that the verse makes more sense on its own."

                      The KJV does not have a verse 18 as they include it in 13:1. The greek word for stand has been found in both versions first and third person. It does appear the newer translations insert dragon and the third person. More investigation to come.
                      If the dragon is meant in Rev 13:1, it's not like it would be far-fetched or something. So it at least appears to be logical. That doesn't prove the dragon is meant though.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

                        Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                        Where is the dragon located at the beginning of the 42 months?

                        Is he in the pit? And if in the pit how can he be also standing on the seashore??

                        Rev 12
                        9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

                        Evidence that the dragon is in the pit at the start of the 42 months it that an entity come up from the pit after the 42 months.

                        Rev 11
                        7 And when they shall have finished their testimony (42 months), the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

                        This has to be the dragon coming up no one else. Thus the dragon cannot be also standing on the shore at the start of the 42 months he is in the pit!!!!

                        You saved me a bit of typing. The above just crossed my mind before I saw your post here, thus I was thinking about submitting a similar point.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

                          Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                          For me it is the dragon calling forth the beast and then giving the beast his power, whilst John simply observes this.
                          Does the dragon really call out forth the beast from Hell to join him on earth?

                          3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

                          Notice the dragon HAS 7 heads and 10 horns. So how can both a beast come up from the sea and one standing on the shore have 7 heads and horns?

                          Thus the beast coming up from the sea with 7 heads and horns has to be the dragon!!!!

                          How can both beasts have 7 heads and 7 horns!!!!!

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                          • #28
                            Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

                            Originally posted by divaD View Post
                            You saved me a bit of typing. The above just crossed my mind before I saw your post here, thus I was thinking about submitting a similar point.
                            See my above. How can both beasts one standing and the one coming up have 7 heads and 7 horns.


                            The 7 heads and 7 horns are part of the dragon thus he is not both coming up and standing at the same time!!!

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                            • #29
                              Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

                              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                              See my above. How can both beasts one standing and the one coming up have 7 heads and 7 horns.


                              The 7 heads and 7 horns are part of the dragon thus he is not both coming up and standing at the same time!!!
                              BTW though, I was meaning from an Amil perspective since Amils have satan in the pit during this age, and that many Amils use Rev 13 to try and show when satan is released from the pit. So not meaning from a Premil perspective, in regards to a similar point that just came to mind prior to me initially reading your post I just responded to a little bit ago.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

                                Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                                See my above. How can both beasts one standing and the one coming up have 7 heads and 7 horns.


                                The 7 heads and 7 horns are part of the dragon thus he is not both coming up and standing at the same time!!!
                                I can kinda see what you are getting at here, so not entirely then. We have to keep in mind that we are from two different schools of thought here. I'm Premil and you are not.

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