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  • Follower1977
    replied
    Re: understanding the revelation....

    So back to the revelation, and it's connection from other prophecies.

    we know like with the beast with seven heads , time has passed because in revelation 5 kings have already fallen when John sees the vision. Where's Daniels vision came before those kings rose up. Another good indicator at least for me is this Daniel sees

    “And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.”
    **Daniel‬ *12:7‬ *KJV‬‬


    and then John sees the heavenly and we see that at this point that time has passed

    “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:”
    **Revelation‬ *10:5-6‬ *KJV‬‬

    I've thought a lot in the line of things on heaven, and things on earth. So often we see in prophecy 2 relatively obvious accounts when dealing with revelation such as the above example , or when regarding the beast with seven heads. Time has passed for certain , but also in revelation John is brought into the open door in heaven giving him a different perspective of things.

    what I mean by two accounts one on earth and one in heaven, or from or regarding heaven is this for example in the prophet Ezekeils vision regarding Israel


    “And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.

    And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

    And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:”
    **Ezekiel‬ *9:2-5‬ *KJV‬‬


    and in revelation

    “And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
    **Revelation‬ *7:2-4‬ *KJV‬‬


    then of course we later see them on mount sion which the lamb.

    or another example not tomshare my understanding just to show the same theme , so it shouldn't be considered conflation or coincidence


    “I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand. Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof.”
    **Zechariah‬ *2:1-2‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.”
    **Revelation‬ *11:1‬ *KJV‬‬


    again , this is just to show there is connections within prophecy when regarding the revelation , a lot of context is there in those chapters , that will convince a student of scripture and provides a really interesting line of thinking that makes a lot of sens when dealing within the understanding of other scriptures.

    another would be

    In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south. And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.

    And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *40:2-4‬ *KJV‬‬

    so then in revelation

    “And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,”
    **Revelation‬ *21:9-10‬ *KJV‬‬


    of course we know by now John is told to prophecy not only to Israel as Ezekeils son of man, but to all nations and tribes and peoples...again, I've just quoted a piece to show the reletivity , but if one reads into ezekeil there you find a specific measurement of the temple and city which then is revealed in revelation to be the new Jerusalem that is in heaven.


    Zechariah, Daniel, ezekeil, Isaiah , Amos , Joel, Micah...ect there are so many things that actually lead to revelation....into the book of revelation found in the prophets. They aren't repeated visions, but they concern the same things, both things I. The heavens, and things on the earth and the relation between heaven and earth. Just for consideration to show its not just one verse or one instance when other prophecies see some of the same imagery , slight differences and the time the visions were given in many ways show us Gods plan unfolding through time in scripture, slowly revealing the Lords salvation who is Jesus Christ our Lord.

    check out the four beasts in revelation around the throne , and the cherubs in Ezekeils vision chapter 1 and ten , they reappear also , watch in ezekeil as Gods glory exits the earthly temple in Jerusalem , and carries his glory up into the heavenly places, into the gates on the true Jerusalem above that is to,be revealed in due time. What has the gate to the east is sealed until the son of man has the glory of God abiding upon him , and note that he is the only allowed to enter.

    think back to where the " sun of righteousness " was to rise, think back to the tribe of Judah and thier position in the camp....

    really this is just meant to inspire someone to look into the things you may notice, there is truly understanding for revelation found in the scriptures

    So back to the revelation, and it's connection from other prophecies.

    we know like with the beast with seven heads , time has passed because in revelation 5 kings have already fallen when John sees the vision. Where's Daniels vision came before those kings rose up. Another good indicator at least for me is this Daniel sees

    “And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.”
    **Daniel‬ *12:7‬ *KJV‬‬


    and then John sees the heavenly and we see that at this point that time has passed

    “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:”
    **Revelation‬ *10:5-6‬ *KJV‬‬

    I've thought a lot in the line of things on heaven, and things on earth. So often we see in prophecy 2 relatively obvious accounts when dealing with revelation such as the above example , or when regarding the beast with seven heads. Time has passed for certain , but also in revelation John is brought into the open door in heaven giving him a different perspective of things.

    what I mean by two accounts one on earth and one in heaven, or from or regarding heaven is this for example in the prophet Ezekeils vision regarding Israel


    “And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.

    And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

    And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:”
    **Ezekiel‬ *9:2-5‬ *KJV‬‬


    and in revelation

    “And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
    **Revelation‬ *7:2-4‬ *KJV‬‬


    then of course we later see them on mount sion which the lamb.

    or another example not tomshare my understanding just to show the same theme , so it shouldn't be considered conflation or coincidence


    “I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand. Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof.”
    **Zechariah‬ *2:1-2‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.”
    **Revelation‬ *11:1‬ *KJV‬‬


    again , this is just to show there is connections within prophecy when regarding the revelation , a lot of context is there in those chapters , that will convince a student of scripture and provides a really interesting line of thinking that makes a lot of sens when dealing within the understanding of other scriptures.

    another would be

    In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south. And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.

    And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *40:2-4‬ *KJV‬‬

    so then in revelation

    “And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,”
    **Revelation‬ *21:9-10‬ *KJV‬‬


    of course we know by now John is told to prophecy not only to Israel as Ezekeils son of man, but to all nations and tribes and peoples...again, I've just quoted a piece to show the reletivity , but if one reads into ezekeil there you find a specific measurement of the temple and city which then is revealed in revelation to be the new Jerusalem that is in heaven.


    Zechariah, Daniel, ezekeil, Isaiah , Amos , Joel, Micah...ect there are so many things that actually lead to revelation....into the book of revelation found in the prophets. They aren't repeated visions, but they concern the same things, both things I. The heavens, and things on the earth and the relation between heaven and earth. Just for consideration to show its not just one verse or one instance when other prophecies see some of the same imagery , slight differences and the time the visions were given in many ways show us Gods plan unfolding through time in scripture, slowly revealing the Lords salvation who is Jesus Christ our Lord.

    check out the four beasts in revelation around the throne , and the cherubs in Ezekeils vision chapter 1 and ten , they reappear also , watch in ezekeil as Gods glory exits the earthly temple in Jerusalem , and carries his glory up into the heavenly places, into the gates on the true Jerusalem above that is to,be revealed in due time. What has the gate to the east is sealed until the son of man has the glory of God abiding upon him , and note that he is the only allowed to enter.

    think back to where the " sun of righteousness " was to rise, think back to the tribe of Judah and thier position in the camp....

    really this is just meant to inspire someone to look into the things you may notice, there is truly understanding for revelation found in the scriptures

    Leave a comment:


  • Follower1977
    replied
    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    I enjoyed that--thanks!

    and you also brother thanks and God bless you in abundancs

    Leave a comment:


  • Follower1977
    replied
    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I view that old law as being a good as man was, and equally as flawed as man was...hence some good things said about it and a lot not-so-good things said about it.
    I agree ,

    the law is meant for these folks

    “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”
    **1 Timothy‬ *1:9-11‬ *KJV‬‬


    To this end

    “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”
    **Romans‬ *3:19‬ *KJV‬‬


    Where's the gospel is meant for these folks born again to be

    That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.”
    **Matthew‬ *5:45‬ *KJV‬‬


    the gospel is as good as Jesus is, the law relies on how good sinners are....

    Leave a comment:


  • Follower1977
    replied
    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law- Galatians 3:13

    the law entangles with the yoke of bondage- Galatians 5:1

    if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law - Galatians 5:18

    the strength of sin is the law- 1 Corinthians 15:56

    the law worketh wrath- Romans 4:15

    we are not under the law- Romans 6:15

    we are delivered from the law- Romans 7:6

    we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter- Romans 7:6
    a few more

    “And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:12‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

    Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

    Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
    **2 Corinthians‬ *3:6-8, 12-18‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
    **Romans‬ *3:20‬ *KJV‬‬

    Leave a comment:


  • Follower1977
    replied
    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It says he has the horns of a lamb not that he looks like a lamb.

    Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

    The word lamb there also means a small lamb, not an adult or mature lamb.

    It reminds me of the little horn, but here we have someone who has two little horns. I'm sure this is an intentional.

    yes , like I was saying it was just a thought that occurred in a different study. I'm not sure honestly where I am on that. I just found it interesting like you say there it seems intentional sort of , given the rest of the book of Daniel. And certain scriptures in ezekeil also.

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It says he has the horns of a lamb not that he looks like a lamb.

    Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

    The word lamb there also means a small lamb, not an adult or mature lamb.

    It reminds me of the little horn, but here we have someone who has two little horns. I'm sure this is an intentional.

    yes , like I was saying it was just a thought that occurred in a different study. I'm not sure honestly where I am on that. I just found it interesting like you say there it seems intentional sort of , given the rest of the book of Daniel. And certain scriptures in ezekeil also.

    Leave a comment:


  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    I agree with all those things. As good as the Law was, it could not undo the sentence of death, and the condemnation of sin. Until the sin nature of Man was adequately dealt with, the Law served to highlight our ultimate failure.
    I view that old law as being a good as man was, and equally as flawed as man was...hence some good things said about it and a lot not-so-good things said about it.

    Leave a comment:


  • randyk
    replied
    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law- Galatians 3:13

    the law entangles with the yoke of bondage- Galatians 5:1

    if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law - Galatians 5:18

    the strength of sin is the law- 1 Corinthians 15:56

    the law worketh wrath- Romans 4:15

    we are not under the law- Romans 6:15

    we are delivered from the law- Romans 7:6

    we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter- Romans 7:6
    I agree with all those things. As good as the Law was, it could not undo the sentence of death, and the condemnation of sin. Until the sin nature of Man was adequately dealt with, the Law served to highlight our ultimate failure.

    Leave a comment:


  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    The Law was good.
    Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law- Galatians 3:13

    the law entangles with the yoke of bondage- Galatians 5:1

    if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law - Galatians 5:18

    the strength of sin is the law- 1 Corinthians 15:56

    the law worketh wrath- Romans 4:15

    we are not under the law- Romans 6:15

    we are delivered from the law- Romans 7:6

    we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter- Romans 7:6

    Leave a comment:


  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Originally posted by Follower1977 View Post

    just another thought there I see, you know the beast who looks like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon?
    It says he has the horns of a lamb not that he looks like a lamb.

    Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

    The word lamb there also means a small lamb, not an adult or mature lamb.

    It reminds me of the little horn, but here we have someone who has two little horns. I'm sure this is an intentional.

    Leave a comment:


  • randyk
    replied
    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Originally posted by Follower1977 View Post
    yes indeed bro , I have always , do now and will always believe the bibles teaching of things.

    there is absolutely no offense to me in anything you have said to me in this thread or any other. It seems as if we have both sort of stated our side of the discussion is all I meant there. And also consider you a sincere brother in Christ Jesus . Maybe if the lord is willing, we can sit somewhere in eternity with a bit better grasp of everything and discuss this again and come to agreement , God bless
    I enjoyed that--thanks!

    Leave a comment:


  • Follower1977
    replied
    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    I apologize if we utilize the language of polemics so harshly. I find you a friendly brother, though quite willing to strongly pursue your own biblical beliefs. Nothing wrong with that. I just want you to know I fall short in the matter of producing clear, cogent statements of what I believe on this subject, without it sounding out of sync with what we regularly get on the subject. Since I'm discussing this in Bible Chat, you can certainly look there to see how my view is being better organized. Thanks for the conversation, as well!

    yes indeed bro , I have always , do now and will always believe the bibles teaching of things.

    there is absolutely no offense to me in anything you have said to me in this thread or any other. It seems as if we have both sort of stated our side of the discussion is all I meant there. And also consider you a sincere brother in Christ Jesus . Maybe if the lord is willing, we can sit somewhere in eternity with a bit better grasp of everything and discuss this again and come to agreement , God bless

    Leave a comment:


  • randyk
    replied
    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Originally posted by Follower1977 View Post
    ok thanks for the conversation anyways, I'll let you teach people about this stuff, and I'll keep sharing scripture, maybe someone will understand them better than I do , God bless you sincerely.
    I apologize if we utilize the language of polemics so harshly. I find you a friendly brother, though quite willing to strongly pursue your own biblical beliefs. Nothing wrong with that. I just want you to know I fall short in the matter of producing clear, cogent statements of what I believe on this subject, without it sounding out of sync with what we regularly get on the subject. Since I'm discussing this in Bible Chat, you can certainly look there to see how my view is being better organized. Thanks for the conversation, as well!

    Leave a comment:


  • Follower1977
    replied
    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    This is the typical verbiage I get from those who completely misunderstand Paul, and thus, misunderstand the Law. You are trying to adopt NT biblical doctrines without understanding them. You are utterly unable to put together seemingly opposite statements about the Law, reconciling them logically.

    The Scriptures do say that the Law is good. David and Moses said that keeping the Law is good. Jesus taught the obedience of the Law to all of Israel in the days before he went to the cross. You utterly fail to reconcile that with your doctrine of the total depravity of Man.

    But I wish you well, brother. You're at least trying to teach and follow what Paul teaches. And mind you, I also teach and follow what Paul teaches. I just seem to understand what Paul meant, whereas you're only trying to teach what you believe is orthodox doctrine.

    The Law was good. Obedience was good. It did not produce complete depravity in man. Rather, it showed Man his sin so that by faith he would rely on God's word for salvation. The Law pointed the way to God and to His word so that Man might obey the Law.

    The Law, however, was never meant to be the instrument of salvation--only point the way to salvation. In producing faith it showed that salvation would come by faith in what Christ would ultimately do, which was to provide salvation by God Himself.

    You don't understand all these things, and that's fine. Men do get despicably wicked over time, while some maintain their innocence in the eyes of God. The point really is this: no matter how righteous men may become, and they do become that at times--they will never be able to overcome their record of sin, since the sin nature is in them. The only way to cover their record of sin is by what Christ did, and through faith in that.

    As under the Law it is faith in God's word that saves. But it was also necessary to have faith in Christ because he was God's special word in the matter of redemption. We needed God's forgiveness, and God's forgiveness alone. We could not forgive ourselves.

    The Law, as good as it was, could not provide a complete cover for sin, because flawed humanity participated in the Law's atoning process. Only God could fully atone for sin. None of Man's works is part of what brings salvation to Man.

    If you can figure out how we differ, I think you'll see that we both are trying to follow Scriptural teaching. I just think I'm understanding it properly.

    The Law was always designed to provided righteousness. But it was never designed to provide complete atonement. It was only ever a partial atonement.

    Complete atonement had to come by Christ in the same way true righteousness came by the Law only through faith in God's word. Righteousness always has to be rooted in God's word, whether under the Law or in Christ.

    And now that we are in Christ, the Law offers no basis for faith at all, except as a system that falls short of complete atonement. The only system that provides righteousness and atonement today is faith in Christ. There is no longer any capacity for atonement--not even a partial atonement--under the Law. It's time is over.

    ok thanks for the conversation anyways, I'll let you teach people about this stuff, and I'll keep sharing scripture, maybe someone will understand them better than I do , God bless you sincerely.

    Leave a comment:


  • randyk
    replied
    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Originally posted by Follower1977 View Post
    bro it's a bit concerning to me how you seem to doubt the apostle Paul's conclusions. True he quoted old prophecies saying all have sinned. But it wasn't new doctrine at all. Here is who said it and why Paul comes to the conclusion

    The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    **Psalms‬ *14:2-3‬ *KJV‬‬

    Paul remember was a Pharisee, he had studied the law and prophets from his birth , a Hebrew of Hebrews , Paul actually says that according to the law he is faultless. It's not as if we now are going to grasp the understanding of the law better than one raised upon its every ordinance and command as a Pharisee. It's advisable in my own humble opinion to see Paul not as a prophet of old where we're not quite in the light so we need to try to re figure out his words , they are the understanding of all those prophets and what they were foretelling. They are the conclusions , coming from a man specifically chosen as the other apostles to set forth the gospel to the world.

    we're meant to learn from them, we shouldn't doubt did you know by the power of the Holy Ghost , Paul healed, drove out demons, even raised the dead? This is proof to us that he was speaking not of a man trying to figure things out, but of the Holy Ghost with power leaving no doubt. The Old Testament is veiled, Paul is speaking from the revelation of the light of Christ, with no veil upon his words. He's very trustworthy , as are all the scriptures. We need not fear Paul's words, or re think and come to different conclusions, it's his job to speak the things to the church that he spoke, as the others. We're meant to subject our minds to the understanding God has given to the church , regarding things of old which men did not understand until Christ came.

    I used to think a lot like you, somewhere along the way God humbled me explaining this same point to me. Turns out I was trying to figure out things that Paul was ordained to reveal in the light of truth. I don't know a time this happened but God gave me a gift , in that through humbling me intellectually, he showed me " just take it all in and believe what's there.

    that's different from using our intellect and reason to try to piece together what things could mean. I could be very wrong, but it seems as if you may benefit from just this thinking I'm trying to share with you. It's not a weakness for us to become first a fool in our own understanding , so that God can build us up on his foundation. It's the way he has chosen, that all may know that without his spirit, we have no hope. Prayer and study sincere desire to let him change our minds and hearts through the word is a fruitful and satisfying endevour.

    I would imagine there were some in the churches when they heard things in his letters probably argued against them , because of thier knowledge and beliefs about the mosaic laws superiority, but Paul was once a Pharisee of the mosaic law, said he was faultless touching the righteousness in it....then says he counts those things but dung, compared to the knowledge of Christ.


    consider what he's saying here


    “Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews;

    as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

    But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

    That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

    Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.”
    **Philippians‬ *3:5-15‬ *KJV‬‬

    is Paul then speaking against the law? Not at all in any way, he praises the law of Moses constantly in his letters. It's only that he was given revelation understanding the laws purpose , is. Ot the same as the gospels. The laws righteousness, is. Ot the same as the gospels, it's the difference between how good man is, and how good God is....man fails God succeeds far beyond anything man can achieve.

    the law is God telling man " you be holy , because I am holy" the gospel is God telling man " now that you know you are a sinner, I will make you holy , because I am holy." I will " call things that are not , as though they were"

    so just as there was darkness, and God called forth light to shine, the gospel calls forth the light to shine in our hearts in Those who will accept it, because the end of the law has left us with no other Hope.....


    the problem of sin exists on mans heart look at mankind just ten generations into this

    “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
    **Genesis‬ *6:5-6, 8, 12-13‬ *KJV‬‬


    see then before the law came , they according to the word of God thier hearts were only evil continually. Then about five or six generations later Israel is led into Egypt, because thier sin is not yet full. Then about 400 years later comes the law of Moses, in order to begin the process of redemption, by first giving man the knowledge of thier sin, and the result of it. Sin and death are one, death results only from sin. We do now have some goodness in us , that's absolutely correct, it's because we have the knowledge of sin and the understanding it's death through the law. This achieves fear in a man who wants to live , so in his corrupted flesh, he will try to do good knowing sin is death....ultimately it's only the first step of salvation. The result of a sinner at heart, trying to follow perfectly a holy law, will end in death for any man. Even Moses died who mediated this law.

    righteousness must be not a sinner trying to do good, but a born again man with a righteous heart who just does what is in his heart.....that's where the gospel comes in, we take it by faith , knowing his purpose is salvation not death and condemnation. Knowing through his word, we are lost without him, the law of Moses can't save us because it's about sinners , restraining the sin living in our minds and hearts. Eventually the heart wins out a man sins and is condemned.

    the gospel is about dealing with that sinful heart. A man might be an honest guy doesn't lie, and maybe he'd certainly never kill, even maybe he's never stole a thing......but yet he struggles constantly with lust in his heart, he commits fornications , even possibly adultery. This guy is dead under the law, he's condemned. But with the gospel , were taught to hear, accept and keep, follow....he learns the lust within is where the issue and solution lies. If he stands in the light, he'll know " anyone who lists after another has committed adultery in his heart....you must confront it and rid your heart of this lust, because it will lead you to sin , and sin will lead to hell.

    the law doesn't teach that, it says " don't commit adultery" " if anyone commits adultery, they must be stoned and surely killed " but it doesn't offer a solution to the issue of the heart. It's. It meant to solve the issues within us, but is meant to lead us to Christ, through showing us first " there's a big problem here, Gods law condemns me...."oh what a wretched man I am, who shall save me from the body of death? ........I thank God through Christ Jesus ...


    we do have some good in us, but a little good doesn't cut it with God, all the evil is there also. Our rite ousted must surpass the Pharisees righteousness because they were unclean in the heart, to do good grieved them, they did it , but it was against thier nature it was a constant conflict because they refused the gospel
    This is the typical verbiage I get from those who completely misunderstand Paul, and thus, misunderstand the Law. You are trying to adopt NT biblical doctrines without understanding them. You are utterly unable to put together seemingly opposite statements about the Law, reconciling them logically.

    The Scriptures do say that the Law is good. David and Moses said that keeping the Law is good. Jesus taught the obedience of the Law to all of Israel in the days before he went to the cross. You utterly fail to reconcile that with your doctrine of the total depravity of Man.

    But I wish you well, brother. You're at least trying to teach and follow what Paul teaches. And mind you, I also teach and follow what Paul teaches. I just seem to understand what Paul meant, whereas you're only trying to teach what you believe is orthodox doctrine.

    The Law was good. Obedience was good. It did not produce complete depravity in man. Rather, it showed Man his sin so that by faith he would rely on God's word for salvation. The Law pointed the way to God and to His word so that Man might obey the Law.

    The Law, however, was never meant to be the instrument of salvation--only point the way to salvation. In producing faith it showed that salvation would come by faith in what Christ would ultimately do, which was to provide salvation by God Himself.

    You don't understand all these things, and that's fine. Men do get despicably wicked over time, while some maintain their innocence in the eyes of God. The point really is this: no matter how righteous men may become, and they do become that at times--they will never be able to overcome their record of sin, since the sin nature is in them. The only way to cover their record of sin is by what Christ did, and through faith in that.

    As under the Law it is faith in God's word that saves. But it was also necessary to have faith in Christ because he was God's special word in the matter of redemption. We needed God's forgiveness, and God's forgiveness alone. We could not forgive ourselves.

    The Law, as good as it was, could not provide a complete cover for sin, because flawed humanity participated in the Law's atoning process. Only God could fully atone for sin. None of Man's works is part of what brings salvation to Man.

    If you can figure out how we differ, I think you'll see that we both are trying to follow Scriptural teaching. I just think I'm understanding it properly.

    The Law was always designed to provided righteousness. But it was never designed to provide complete atonement. It was only ever a partial atonement.

    Complete atonement had to come by Christ in the same way true righteousness came by the Law only through faith in God's word. Righteousness always has to be rooted in God's word, whether under the Law or in Christ.

    And now that we are in Christ, the Law offers no basis for faith at all, except as a system that falls short of complete atonement. The only system that provides righteousness and atonement today is faith in Christ. There is no longer any capacity for atonement--not even a partial atonement--under the Law. It's time is over.

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  • Follower1977
    replied
    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I think we may go overboard in reading how Paul describes all men, universally, as despicably wicked. That is his argument in Romans, quoting from the OT. "None are righteous."

    However, as you indicate there is some good in men too. God created us in His own image, and that hasn't changed. With the knowledge of good and evil we may now do either good or evil. What has changed, however, is that no matter how much good we do under God's Law, we remain guilty of sin, because the sin nature has now become a part of us. Animal sacrifices under the Law of Moses could not wash that away--it could only temporarily suspend Israel's judgment.

    And so, the Law showed, as you suggested, what the right thing to do is, what is good, and what the image of God within us has called upon our conscience to do. Even without the Law all of mankind still has a conscience, and knows, to some extent, what is right to do, because "the word of God has gone out to the ends of the world."

    But the Law of God is something God has wanted to be transmitted *via man* so that the Law of God, and the Gospel of Christ, may be reinforced by the testimony of men. This makes it clearer, and it also vindicates the truth that men, despite the Fall, can still testify to the truth and can do good.

    So I agree with you. The Law does reveal the failure of Man, despite his knowledge of the Law. But the message is also that men can still do good, despite their sin nature. They can proceed to enter into a lasting covenant through Christ, not just so that they may do good, but also so that they may achieve relationship with God on an eternal basis.

    A relationship with God is actually what enables us to do good and to have our guilt suppressed. And an eternal relationship with God enables our sins to be disposed of forever. That is what we call "eternal life." That is what the Gospel of Christ proclaims to men. Thanks for your input on this!

    bro it's a bit concerning to me how you seem to doubt the apostle Paul's conclusions. True he quoted old prophecies saying all have sinned. But it wasn't new doctrine at all. Here is who said it and why Paul comes to the conclusion

    The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    **Psalms‬ *14:2-3‬ *KJV‬‬

    Paul remember was a Pharisee, he had studied the law and prophets from his birth , a Hebrew of Hebrews , Paul actually says that according to the law he is faultless. It's not as if we now are going to grasp the understanding of the law better than one raised upon its every ordinance and command as a Pharisee. It's advisable in my own humble opinion to see Paul not as a prophet of old where we're not quite in the light so we need to try to re figure out his words , they are the understanding of all those prophets and what they were foretelling. They are the conclusions , coming from a man specifically chosen as the other apostles to set forth the gospel to the world.

    we're meant to learn from them, we shouldn't doubt did you know by the power of the Holy Ghost , Paul healed, drove out demons, even raised the dead? This is proof to us that he was speaking not of a man trying to figure things out, but of the Holy Ghost with power leaving no doubt. The Old Testament is veiled, Paul is speaking from the revelation of the light of Christ, with no veil upon his words. He's very trustworthy , as are all the scriptures. We need not fear Paul's words, or re think and come to different conclusions, it's his job to speak the things to the church that he spoke, as the others. We're meant to subject our minds to the understanding God has given to the church , regarding things of old which men did not understand until Christ came.

    I used to think a lot like you, somewhere along the way God humbled me explaining this same point to me. Turns out I was trying to figure out things that Paul was ordained to reveal in the light of truth. I don't know a time this happened but God gave me a gift , in that through humbling me intellectually, he showed me " just take it all in and believe what's there.

    that's different from using our intellect and reason to try to piece together what things could mean. I could be very wrong, but it seems as if you may benefit from just this thinking I'm trying to share with you. It's not a weakness for us to become first a fool in our own understanding , so that God can build us up on his foundation. It's the way he has chosen, that all may know that without his spirit, we have no hope. Prayer and study sincere desire to let him change our minds and hearts through the word is a fruitful and satisfying endevour.

    I would imagine there were some in the churches when they heard things in his letters probably argued against them , because of thier knowledge and beliefs about the mosaic laws superiority, but Paul was once a Pharisee of the mosaic law, said he was faultless touching the righteousness in it....then says he counts those things but dung, compared to the knowledge of Christ.


    consider what he's saying here


    “Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews;

    as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

    But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

    That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

    Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.”
    **Philippians‬ *3:5-15‬ *KJV‬‬

    is Paul then speaking against the law? Not at all in any way, he praises the law of Moses constantly in his letters. It's only that he was given revelation understanding the laws purpose , is. Ot the same as the gospels. The laws righteousness, is. Ot the same as the gospels, it's the difference between how good man is, and how good God is....man fails God succeeds far beyond anything man can achieve.

    the law is God telling man " you be holy , because I am holy" the gospel is God telling man " now that you know you are a sinner, I will make you holy , because I am holy." I will " call things that are not , as though they were"

    so just as there was darkness, and God called forth light to shine, the gospel calls forth the light to shine in our hearts in Those who will accept it, because the end of the law has left us with no other Hope.....


    the problem of sin exists on mans heart look at mankind just ten generations into this

    “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
    **Genesis‬ *6:5-6, 8, 12-13‬ *KJV‬‬


    see then before the law came , they according to the word of God thier hearts were only evil continually. Then about five or six generations later Israel is led into Egypt, because thier sin is not yet full. Then about 400 years later comes the law of Moses, in order to begin the process of redemption, by first giving man the knowledge of thier sin, and the result of it. Sin and death are one, death results only from sin. We do now have some goodness in us , that's absolutely correct, it's because we have the knowledge of sin and the understanding it's death through the law. This achieves fear in a man who wants to live , so in his corrupted flesh, he will try to do good knowing sin is death....ultimately it's only the first step of salvation. The result of a sinner at heart, trying to follow perfectly a holy law, will end in death for any man. Even Moses died who mediated this law.

    righteousness must be not a sinner trying to do good, but a born again man with a righteous heart who just does what is in his heart.....that's where the gospel comes in, we take it by faith , knowing his purpose is salvation not death and condemnation. Knowing through his word, we are lost without him, the law of Moses can't save us because it's about sinners , restraining the sin living in our minds and hearts. Eventually the heart wins out a man sins and is condemned.

    the gospel is about dealing with that sinful heart. A man might be an honest guy doesn't lie, and maybe he'd certainly never kill, even maybe he's never stole a thing......but yet he struggles constantly with lust in his heart, he commits fornications , even possibly adultery. This guy is dead under the law, he's condemned. But with the gospel , were taught to hear, accept and keep, follow....he learns the lust within is where the issue and solution lies. If he stands in the light, he'll know " anyone who lists after another has committed adultery in his heart....you must confront it and rid your heart of this lust, because it will lead you to sin , and sin will lead to hell.

    the law doesn't teach that, it says " don't commit adultery" " if anyone commits adultery, they must be stoned and surely killed " but it doesn't offer a solution to the issue of the heart. It's. It meant to solve the issues within us, but is meant to lead us to Christ, through showing us first " there's a big problem here, Gods law condemns me...."oh what a wretched man I am, who shall save me from the body of death? ........I thank God through Christ Jesus ...


    we do have some good in us, but a little good doesn't cut it with God, all the evil is there also. Our rite ousted must surpass the Pharisees righteousness because they were unclean in the heart, to do good grieved them, they did it , but it was against thier nature it was a constant conflict because they refused the gospel

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