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The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

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  • #16
    Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

    Originally posted by Walls View Post
    Each of us has his own reasoning, so I make no judgement. But what say you to John 14:16-23?

    16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
    19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
    20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

    • In verse 16 our Lord Jesus will pray to a second Party, His Father. And this second Party, the Father of Jesus will give AN-OTHER that will be WITH us (future tense)
    • In verse 17 this Spirit that will at some future date, dwell WITH us, is said to ALREADY dwell with us, but at some future date with dwell IN us
    • In verse 18, the One Who is going away will come to us as the Comforter. In verse 16 this was the third Party - the Holy Spirit
    • In verse 20 is is predicted that we will know that the first Party of verse 16 is in IN the second Party now (present tense). But He was actually on earth praying to the Second Party in heaven (present tense)
    • In verse 20 the first Party who was on earth as He said this, but Who is IN the second Party Who is in heaven, will have, at some future date, us Christians IN him.
    • In verse 20 the First Party, who is outside men and on earth, but at the same time IN the Father Who is in heaven, predicts not only that we will be in Him but that at the same time, will be IN us Christians.
    • And ALL THIS at some future date that we know Jesus will live in heaven at the right side of, not IN, the Father.

    I propose that this prophecy defies all reasoning. But my question is, is it true? Do you believe it.

    So when we return to the Seals and horses proceeding from them when they are opened, we are met with a similar dilemma. How can a Seal contain a horse and rider? And is it so implausible that God, Who set the Seals, has Jesus in one of them, but also lets Him open the Seals. There are four cell doors in a certain prison. In each is an inmate. Inmate #1 has the keys for ALL four doors. At a command, he opens his own door and proceeds down the passage opening the other three. Is this beyond reason?

    If God, Who has committed judgement of the earth and all its inhabitants into the hands of His Son Jesus, and this Jesus is partaker of the judgement, is it so impossible that this Jesus not only unleashes the tribulation on earth, but Himself goes to take part in it? Did not God David instruction to BOTH attack the enemy AND the tactics to use. And did not David himself, after issuing these orders, go out himself to lead his troops? The one time he stayed behind he fell with Bathsheba.

    The four Seals unleash the unpleasantries on a sinful earth. Christ not only releases them, but is one of the me Himself. He is the Sovereign Grand Commander who sets the tactics, and He is the General who leads the onslaught.
    Actually your example does NOT help the view I was rejecting in the slightest.
    It also doesn't help that you used the KJV.
    This prophecy is not very complicated as it is about relationship.

    We do NOT see a similar dilemma with the four seals. There is NO Jesus asking the Holy Spirit or the Father. There is NO Father or Holy Spirit in any of the first four seals.
    Further the picture given is NOT saying that the SEAL contains the horse and rider.
    Jesus is NOT in any of them, and it is BIZARRE reasoning to consider otherwise.

    The breaking of the SEAL allows the events to occur which are seen AFTER the SEAL is broken. And all this is a vision, without stating when the SEAL itself is broken, but simply shown in a chronological way as John saw it.

    Now AS Jesus is being SEEN in the vision as being in heaven so it shows He is not elsewhere.
    There is NO onslaught in the four seals either.
    They actually fit closer to what Jesus stated in the Olivet Discourse, with various events occurring, which are NOT the End.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

      ForHisGlory, that's my thinking on it. I was curious to know what others thought. The four horsemen do seem to conform with the Lord's Olivet prophecy. The white horse = deception.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

        One way that the rider has been conquering is through worldwide education..education has always been effective in warfare..

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...t_institutions
        A man is in a great place when he has no one to turn to but God.

        ~ Smith Wigglesworth

        sigpic

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

          Originally posted by Walls View Post
          The White Horse and Rider is Jesus. Not the Jesus "meek and mild". Not the Jesus that said not a word while nails were driven into His innocent Body. This is the Jesus Whom the Father has appointed and anointed NEW KING OF THE EARTH. He "goes forth" not to offer peace and reconciliation, but suffering and death to His foes. The age has changed. The souls of the Martyrs under the earth recognize this and pray accordingly. It is no more "forgive them Father ... ". It is, "AVENGE"! The "conquering" is not the conquering of SIN and SINS as He did 2,000 years ago. It is the undiluted conquering of SINNERS!
          Yes, interesting point of view with correct reasoning.
          And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

            Originally posted by David ben Jesse View Post
            Yes, interesting point of view with correct reasoning.
            Incorrect reasoning. The 1st seal happens BEFORE any other seal is opened or any other event, which would then mean Jesus is on the earth having conquered, yet having to wait whilst all the other seals are opened, and then the trumpets blown and then the vials poured out.
            That is NOT the picture we get from Rev 19 onwards.
            So the key fallacy, beyond it being Jesus breaking the seals, is that of timing.

            What is correct is that when Jesus returns He will not be coming as servant but as King.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

              Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
              Actually your example does NOT help the view I was rejecting in the slightest.
              It also doesn't help that you used the KJV.
              This prophecy is not very complicated as it is about relationship.

              We do NOT see a similar dilemma with the four seals. There is NO Jesus asking the Holy Spirit or the Father. There is NO Father or Holy Spirit in any of the first four seals.
              Further the picture given is NOT saying that the SEAL contains the horse and rider.
              Jesus is NOT in any of them, and it is BIZARRE reasoning to consider otherwise.

              The breaking of the SEAL allows the events to occur which are seen AFTER the SEAL is broken. And all this is a vision, without stating when the SEAL itself is broken, but simply shown in a chronological way as John saw it.

              Now AS Jesus is being SEEN in the vision as being in heaven so it shows He is not elsewhere.
              There is NO onslaught in the four seals either.
              They actually fit closer to what Jesus stated in the Olivet Discourse, with various events occurring, which are NOT the End.
              Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
              Incorrect reasoning. The 1st seal happens BEFORE any other seal is opened or any other event, which would then mean Jesus is on the earth having conquered, yet having to wait whilst all the other seals are opened, and then the trumpets blown and then the vials poured out.
              That is NOT the picture we get from Rev 19 onwards.
              So the key fallacy, beyond it being Jesus breaking the seals, is that of timing.

              What is correct is that when Jesus returns He will not be coming as servant but as King.
              I fully accept that different men have different views of this setting in Chapter 6. But your objection seems to be based on two things;
              1. Our Lord Jesus cannot be in two places at once
              2. Revelation is sequential

              (1) When a man dies he goes to Hades. They thief on the cross next to our Lord Jesus ended up in Paradise "that day". And since scripture is clear that our Lord Jesus "FIRST Descended" (Eph.4:8-9) and by the morning of resurrection had both spent three days in Hades and "not yet ascended to His Father", the thief was truly with our Lord Jesus. But you would deny this because Jesus was in a tomb on the face of the earth not Hades "in the heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40). But scriptures says in Psalm 139:8, "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." And even if this is not enough for you, then how do you explain that the rest of us, when we die, are in Hades but "present with the Lord EVEN THOUGH He is on the Father's throne at His right side in heaven? Your objection that our Lord Jesus could not open the first Seal, be part of it, travel, conquer, be in the clouds at the same time as He raise the Two Witnesses from the dead on earth, is groundless.

              (2) If Revelation is sequential then pray, explain how, as you correctly said, He conquers in Revelation 19, but the Kingdoms of earth became His already in Chapter 11? I am the first to agree that there is a certain sequence in Revelation but to maintain that our Lord Jesus cannot both open the Seal and be part of it, is groundless.

              I am aware, from previous disputes with you, that you like things in order, logical and sequential. But you will just have to come to terms with the fact that the Bible does not always allow this. We are dealing with a MASTERMIND. He has certain attributes and traits that transcend the best minds among men. He has written His Book to achieve more than just a story. And although the Revelation has many literal things in it, be prepared for what Revelation 1:1 says; "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John". Be ready at all times to switch from the literal to the "sign" when it becomes apparent. And I'm sure you will agree that horses cannot come out a seal. That the matter of the Seals is a "sign" is already given. To make horses come out of seals and then do the damage they do creates an absurdity.

              Nevertheless I uphold your right to differ. Revelation is not the most difficult Book in my estimation, but it is also not the easiest.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

                [QUOTE=Walls;3502630]I fully accept that different men have different views of this setting in Chapter 6. But your objection seems to be based on two things;
                1. Our Lord Jesus cannot be in two places at once
                2. Revelation is sequential

                Not quite correct. Jesus as a Man is NEVER in two places at once. This is confirmed in EVERY scripture. By His Spirit of course He is in our hearts and is omnipresent.
                However my point was that IN the vision Jesus is placed opening the scroll, He is ALWAYS declared by His Name, unlike other spirits and angels.

                Again Revelation has a backbone which is sequential, but to which we have explanatory side visions.
                The Seals are 100% sequential and are followed by the Trumpets and these are followed by the Vials. There is NOTHING in Revelation which shows this to be incorrect. Further this is the natural reading of it. Additionally there are certain things stated which clearly point to this reality.

                (1) When a man dies he goes to Hades. They thief on the cross next to our Lord Jesus ended up in Paradise "that day". And since scripture is clear that our Lord Jesus "FIRST Descended" (Eph.4:8-9) and by the morning of resurrection had both spent three days in Hades and "not yet ascended to His Father", the thief was truly with our Lord Jesus. But you would deny this because Jesus was in a tomb on the face of the earth not Hades "in the heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40). But scriptures says in Psalm 139:8, "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." And even if this is not enough for you, then how do you explain that the rest of us, when we die, are in Hades but "present with the Lord EVEN THOUGH He is on the Father's throne at His right side in heaven? Your objection that our Lord Jesus could not open the first Seal, be part of it, travel, conquer, be in the clouds at the same time as He raise the Two Witnesses from the dead on earth, is groundless.
                No, Jesus did NOT go to paradise "that day". It is because of what Jesus DID on that day, that the bandit will go to paradise. The bandit is still dead, and awaiting the resurrection when Jesus returns, just like the rest who have fallen asleep in Christ (1 Thess 4).
                Jesus was indeed in a tomb on the face of the earth.
                Psalm 139 does NOT refer to Jesus, but to God.
                We are NOT present with the Lord whilst we are dead. However to discuss that further would probably have to be discussed elsewhere.

                The KEY is to understand that God is revealed to us in different ways, but the Revelation of Jesus is exactly that.

                (2) If Revelation is sequential then pray, explain how, as you correctly said, He conquers in Revelation 19, but the Kingdoms of earth became His already in Chapter 11? I am the first to agree that there is a certain sequence in Revelation but to maintain that our Lord Jesus cannot both open the Seal and be part of it, is groundless.
                This is easy to explain.
                We also read a similar statement in Rev 12, which is part of the same 7th trumpet.
                Rev 11 is a DECLARATION of the position that Jesus is given. Rev 11 is when Jesus is crowned King of Kings and Lord of Lords. However the territory of which He has been crowned King, is at the time in enemy control. So the events of Rev 12 to Rev 19 explains HOW Jesus regains control.
                The first act is casting Satan down to the earth and so removing the Accuser from heaven. A place he occupies at the moment.
                The next acts are in relation to removing the weeds from His Kingdom on Earth. This is also a time of the vials being poured on the earth for people to repent, as a final chance.
                Finally AFTER this time He returns to a battle where He defeats the Beast and the Beast's forces.

                I am aware, from previous disputes with you, that you like things in order, logical and sequential. But you will just have to come to terms with the fact that the Bible does not always allow this. We are dealing with a MASTERMIND. He has certain attributes and traits that transcend the best minds among men. He has written His Book to achieve more than just a story. And although the Revelation has many literal things in it, be prepared for what Revelation 1:1 says; "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John". Be ready at all times to switch from the literal to the "sign" when it becomes apparent. And I'm sure you will agree that horses cannot come out a seal. That the matter of the Seals is a "sign" is already given. To make horses come out of seals and then do the damage they do creates an absurdity.
                He is indeed a MASTERMIND, but He understands OUR minds, better than we do, and He gives Revelation to SHOW Himself and His plans, not to confuse and mislead.

                Nevertheless I uphold your right to differ. Revelation is not the most difficult Book in my estimation, but it is also not the easiest.
                It isn't very difficult when you apply the natural sequence that we are given. It becomes strange when we tamper with what He reveals to make it different.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

                  Originally posted by Badger View Post
                  Sorry if this has been asked already, I did a search but didn't find anything.

                  The title is pretty much self-explanatory. Please share why you believe as you do.
                  We are TOLD what each horse is....White = Conqueror, Red = Takes away Peace, Black = Famine and Pale Green Horse = Death/Sickness and the Grave. They are all things that happen over the 42 Month reign of the Anti-Christ.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

                    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                    Psalm 139 does NOT refer to Jesus, but to God.
                    Do You make a difference between Yeshua (Jesus) and the Most High?
                    Deuteronomy 6:4* Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
                    And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

                      Originally posted by Walls View Post
                      I fully accept that different men have different views of this setting in Chapter 6. But your objection seems to be based on two things;
                      1. Our Lord Jesus cannot be in two places at once
                      2. Revelation is sequential

                      (1) When a man dies he goes to Hades. They thief on the cross next to our Lord Jesus ended up in Paradise "that day". And since scripture is clear that our Lord Jesus "FIRST Descended" (Eph.4:8-9) and by the morning of resurrection had both spent three days in Hades and "not yet ascended to His Father", the thief was truly with our Lord Jesus. But you would deny this because Jesus was in a tomb on the face of the earth not Hades "in the heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40). But scriptures says in Psalm 139:8, "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." And even if this is not enough for you, then how do you explain that the rest of us, when we die, are in Hades but "present with the Lord EVEN THOUGH He is on the Father's throne at His right side in heaven? Your objection that our Lord Jesus could not open the first Seal, be part of it, travel, conquer, be in the clouds at the same time as He raise the Two Witnesses from the dead on earth, is groundless.

                      (2) If Revelation is sequential then pray, explain how, as you correctly said, He conquers in Revelation 19, but the Kingdoms of earth became His already in Chapter 11? I am the first to agree that there is a certain sequence in Revelation but to maintain that our Lord Jesus cannot both open the Seal and be part of it, is groundless.

                      I am aware, from previous disputes with you, that you like things in order, logical and sequential. But you will just have to come to terms with the fact that the Bible does not always allow this. We are dealing with a MASTERMIND. He has certain attributes and traits that transcend the best minds among men. He has written His Book to achieve more than just a story. And although the Revelation has many literal things in it, be prepared for what Revelation 1:1 says; "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John". Be ready at all times to switch from the literal to the "sign" when it becomes apparent. And I'm sure you will agree that horses cannot come out a seal. That the matter of the Seals is a "sign" is already given. To make horses come out of seals and then do the damage they do creates an absurdity.

                      Nevertheless I uphold your right to differ. Revelation is not the most difficult Book in my estimation, but it is also not the easiest.
                      1.) Revelation is not in Chronological Order as per the book of Rev., you are correct.

                      2.) Paradise is the place the Jews went to SLEEP, kinda a Holding place for Spirits until the End Times come. It's not Heaven. REMEMBER, Jesus went to Preach to the Spirits for 3 Days......The Thief was WITH HIM that say in Paradise, where the thief is no doubt still at awaiting Judgment.

                      I have spelled out the Sequence of the book of Revelation on here, but people just put blinders on.

                      Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter: { Jesus Glorified, the Seven Churches and the coming Tribulation Events}

                      John saw Jesus in all his Glory, and described it as such, thus Jesus was the things which he had seen. The things which are of course were the Seven Churches. The things that will be hereafter are of course the coming Tribulation after the Rapture of the Church, in chapters 4-22.

                      Rev. 1 the Glorious Christ Revealed for all to see.

                      Rev. 2 and 3, the Seven Churches are given things they are doing properly, and also told about things they need to work on, they are a "Type" of the Church Age" in general.

                      Rev. 4 and 5 is the Raptured Church in Heaven, we see the Elders of the Church in Heaven wearing White. The 24 Elders are the Church. The reasons are many, I will list them below:

                      Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

                      The Rewards promised to the Seven Churches are given unto the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4.

                      * A Crown - ( Rev. 2:10, 3:11, 4:4 and 4:10 )

                      * A Throne - ( Rev. 3:21 and 4:4 )

                      * A White Robe - ( Rev. 3:4-5 and Rev. 4:4 )

                      As per the 24 Elders meaning ? or why 24 Elders !! Well this fits 1 Chronicles 24:7-19 where we are told there are 24 orders of priests.

                      So the Church is in Heaven before the Seals are opened, thus the Rapture happens before the Seals are opened !! John saw them in Rev. chapters 4 and 5, the Elders are not in Heaven having marred the Lamb without the Church also being there, there is just ONE MARRIAGE !! 

                      So the Church is shown in heaven, raptured before the Seals have been broken in Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9 where they sing a song of the Redeemed. Angels don't need to be redeemed !!

                      In Rev. 6 we see the Seals {Wrath of the Lamb} being opened. The Anti-Christ is allowed to go forth Conquering. He takes Peace from the earth {Dan. 8:25, 9:27, 11:40-43} as the Red horse, his wars bring famine as the Black horse and of course he brings death and the grave via war and sickness thus the Pale Green horse. These deaths are of course many, but not the Raptured Church, we are in Heaven, these are the deaths of all that refuse to worship this man as God, the Muslims are the vast majority of these deaths {Rev.17:16} as per the Harlot being judged. But it comes to pass right off the bat, in Rev. 6, the Beast must subvert all other religions to start with, thus he will chase Israel into the wilderness, he will Martyr the Gentiles who have accepted Christ {5th Seal}, Rev. 12:17, and he will destroy all religions and appoint a BEAST over Religion, the False Prophet. The 2nd Beast of Rev. 13 who comes out of the land/earth {Israel}.

                      The First Beast of course is a Gentile Geo-political leader from Europe, born in Greece. The Two-witnesses of Rev. 11 are already preaching repentance by the time the Beast Conquers Jerusalem/Mediterranean Sea Region, that is why some of the Jews {1/3} fled Judea just before the Beast goes forth Conquering. The 6th Seal is opened and mankind finally understand they are in the Lamb's Wrath {God's Wrath via the Lamb who opens the Seals}. These first Four Seals hit very fast, the Jews are fleeing Judea, then we get the 6th Seal that announces supernaturally, you are in God's Wrath, so mankind finally understand that the Anti-Christ represents the Four Horseman and that they have been in God's Wrath since the Anti-Christ or Little Horn went forth Conquering thereby becoming THE BEAST !!

                      In Rev. 7 Just before Jesus opens the 7th Seal in Rev. 8, which will bring destruction to Babylon {this whole world} he tells his Angels to hold off until Israel {144,000} are protected in the Petra/Bozrah Mountain area, the 144,000 is a Metaphor for ALL ISRAEL, not every Jew. Israel as a Nation is preserved/saved, but only 1/3 of the Jews are saved/repent, 2/3 perish. We then are shown the Church in Heaven one last time in Rev. 7:9-17, they are said to have come out of the Great Tribulation, and everyone demands this to mean the Greatest Ever Troubles for Jacob, but it really means the 2000 some odd year Church Age Period, which is GREATER than the 7 year period of Jacob's troubles as in 2000>7. Jesus told us we were to have continual tribulation, so the 2000 some odd year Church Age was no doubt the Greatest Period of troubles, and that is what John was referring to, the Martyrs under the Altar are specifically told they must wait until their fellow brothers die in just the like manner as they did, so they must wait until the Beasts 42 month rule is over before they can rule with Christ {see Rev. 20:4} for 1000 years on earth.

                      In Rev. 8, after the Jews are protected in the Petra region, God unleashes His fury on Babylon {see Rev. 18} which God sees as Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth, Satan is cast down to earth, Apollyon is released via the coming 1st Woe. The Two-witnesses are praying down these plagues no doubt, this is why the world hates them. All the grasses in all the world are burned up, as are a 1/3 of all the trees in the whole world, that is a whole lotta smoke in the air !! A 1/3 part of the Seas are turned to blood, 1/3 of the Sea Creatures die, 1/3 of the ships are Destroyed, and 1/3 of all the drinking waters are poisoned. A 1/3 part of the sun, moon and stars give not their light, one has to think all the smoke is blocking out the sun, moon and stars. Then an Angel announces there are THREE WOES LEFT, and the last three Trumpets that are yet to sound will indeed be the coming Three Woes.

                      In Rev. 9 we see Woe #1 and Woe #2. Apollyon and his hordes of Demons are released from the bottomless pit in Woe #1, thus the world {Babylon} is become a Habitation of Devils {see Rev. 18}. They maim mankind but can not kill them. In Woe #2 we see an Angelic Army of God {200 Million} which brings plagues against Mankind where 1.5 Billion people are killed. We see the 2nd Woe repeated in Rev. 11, but it's the same Woe, Rev. 11 is not a REAL TIME EVENT, it's a Parenthetical Citation or a set-a-side chapter which speaks about other things that happened in the Judgement chapters besides the Seal, Trumpet or Vial Judgment's per se.

                      Rev. 10 is a flash forward to the end.

                      Rev. 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations, they are not a part of the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation.

                      Rev. 11 is about the Two-witnesses ministry, it seems to start 75 days before the Beast comes to power and they seem to die about 75 days before the Beast dies. They preach repentance to the Jews for 1260 days. This happens from 75 days before the Beast comes to power until 75 days before the Beast is killed/destroyed by Jesus at the 7th Vial. When the 7th Trumpet sounds in Rev. chapter 11, the Two-witnesses are already dead, this means they actually put forth this prayer unto God before they died. The 7th Trumpet is nothing more than all 7 Vials Combined. This is why it says Babylon is Fallen. The 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe !!

                      Rev. 12 and 13 both start of course in Rev. ch. 6 , in the Middle of the Week. One shows the Beast chasing Israel into the Wilderness and the other shows the Beast ruling for 42 months.

                      Rev. 14 is all about three specific Harvests, the Church is Raptured in verse 14, the Wheat {144,000} grows with the Wicked Tares until the end !! Jesus gathers the Wheat into his barn, whilst bundling the Wicked Tares together to be burned at a later date. {Second Death}. This chapter thus covers the full 7 years in total.

                      Rev. 15&16 are about the last 7 Vials, but they come forth from the Last/7th Trumpet, and thus the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe !! Jesus takes over in Rev. 16:19 and God sees the Nations he defeats as Babylon, and Vial #6 tells us who these Nations are, the Kings of the East, and the Kings of the WHOLE WORLD, so Babylon = the Whole World in God's eyes. This is the End of Babylon, or Satan's Rule on earth, Jesus takes over here, Babylon has fallen the Angel says IT IS DONE !! This of course ends the world as we know it. Thus Rev. 17 and 18 have to be about Events that have already come to pass, just as I have already asserted.

                      Rev. 17 is the Judgment of the Harlot. All False Religion is Judged here. In the end she is killed off by the Kings in League with the Beast starting at the midway point, in Rev. 6, the Beast demands to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD, thus the Kings kill off Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and all religions. The Harlot {False Religions} had been co-mingled with Babylon {False/Beast Governments} since the beginning, she is the mother of harlots, she is an abomination, and she was a Mystery until God explained who she was. She was co-mingled with Babylon !!

                      Rev. 18 is the other side of the two sided coin. The Harlot RIDES the Beast !! Babylon is the Whole World under the rule of Satan, Babel means confusion, all men that follow Satan by definition are CONFUSED no doubt. So all those that fight for Satan against God at Armageddon are seen as Babylon the Great !! And thus God gives them the winepress of His Wrath {Rev. 16:19}. God calls Israel to come out of Babylon in verse 4, lest she {Israel} receives of her {Babylon/Worlds} Plagues. Babylon or the Worlds Merchants are dismayed that her COMMERCE is destroyed, but of course that is what the Plagues of God were designed to do !! The Trees, Seas and the Earth are all hit with fires and plagues, the 2nd Woe kills 1.5 Billion people, the Anti-Christ/Beast kills 2 Billion people. Of course this hurts Babylons {WHOLE WORLDS} economy. In ONE HOUR judgment comes on Babylon, well the Kings rule with the Beast for ONE HOUR also {42 Months just as Rev. 17:12 says, the Kings have power with the Beast for ONE HOUR which = 42 Months}. Rev. 18 is the Whole World getting hit with God's Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, it starts in Rev. 6, and runs through Rev. 16, whereas the Harlot is killed off in Rev. ch. 6 to begin with, then she is replaced by the False Prophet Religious Beast.

                      Rev. 19 is the Church going to Heaven, readying herself to become Christs Bride, Marrying the Lamb, then returning to earth with Jesus on White horses {as Conquerors}, where we have our Marriage Supper {Armageddon}. This chapter also lasts the full 7 years, thus it is also not a part of the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation.

                      Rev. 20, is the Judgment Seat, Rev. 21 and 22 are the everafter and the New Jerusalem.

                      As we see, Rev. 11, 16, 19 as well as 18 and 14 all see Babylon Falling. Because they all cover the VERY END.....In Rev. 11 the 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe which is ALL 7 VIALS. The 7th Vial of Rev. 16 of course ends Satan's rule on earth {Babylon Falls}. Rev. 19 and Rev. 14 both cover the full 7 years, so at the END of each of course we get armageddon and Babylon Falling, and Rev. 18 is of course showing ALL the Judgments that hit Babylon {Satan's earthly Kingdom see Like 4} from the First Seal to the 7th Vial.

                      It's pretty easy if one thinks like this.......Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age, Rev. 4 and 5 is the raptured Church in Heaven....The HEREAFTER is divided between chapters 4 and 5 and chapters 6, 7, 8, 9, 15&16 the Judgment Chapters...........that ENDS Babylon. Rev. 20-22 is the WTJ and the New Jerusalem coming down.

                      The rest of the chapters happen during the chapters in Red ABOVE.

                      I wish someone would have explained all this me when I was young. It sure confused me for 25 years. LOL.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

                        Originally posted by David ben Jesse View Post
                        Do You make a difference between Yeshua (Jesus) and the Most High?
                        Deuteronomy 6:4* Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
                        I distinguish when scripture distinguishes.
                        So when Jesus is stated, then it is Jesus, when the Father, then the Father and when the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit.
                        When it is simply God, then it is a question as to what form God is being addressed as.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

                          Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
                          1.) Revelation is not in Chronological Order as per the book of Rev., you are correct.

                          2.) Paradise is the place the Jews went to SLEEP, kinda a Holding place for Spirits until the End Times come. It's not Heaven. REMEMBER, Jesus went to Preach to the Spirits for 3 Days......The Thief was WITH HIM that say in Paradise, where the thief is no doubt still at awaiting Judgment.
                          Have you scripture for this? The thief on the cross next to our Lord might have been a Jew or might not. What is crucial is that He was UNDER the earth. Our Lord Jesus "Descended first to the lower parts of the earth" (Eph.4:9) - the "heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40) - Hades (Act.2:27, 31) - the SAME Hades that holds the "rest of the dead" in Revelation 20.

                          He did NOT preach to the spirits in Prison. The main theme of 1st Peter is the Holy Spirit. See 1:2, 1:11, 1:22, 3:4, 3:18-19 and 4:14. When we come to 1st Peter 3:18-20 the grammar reads;

                          18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit
                          19 By which
                          also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
                          20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."


                          There are no verse divisions in the original text, nor punctuation. So the end of verse 18 going into 19 is one thought. It is,

                          but quickened by the Spirit By which also he (the Spirit) went (in those days) and preached unto the spirits (now) in prison;"

                          That is, our Lord Jesus was made alive BY the SAME Spirit that inspired Noah to preach to the angels of Noah's time, but who are now in prison for mating with human women (2nd Pet.2:4).

                          Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
                          I have spelled out the Sequence of the book of Revelation on here, but people just put blinders on.

                          Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter: { Jesus Glorified, the Seven Churches and the coming Tribulation Events}

                          John saw Jesus in all his Glory, and described it as such, thus Jesus was the things which he had seen. The things which are of course were the Seven Churches. The things that will be hereafter are of course the coming Tribulation after the Rapture of the Church, in chapters 4-22.

                          Rev. 1 the Glorious Christ Revealed for all to see.

                          Rev. 2 and 3, the Seven Churches are given things they are doing properly, and also told about things they need to work on, they are a "Type" of the Church Age" in general.

                          Rev. 4 and 5 is the Raptured Church in Heaven, we see the Elders of the Church in Heaven wearing White. The 24 Elders are the Church. The reasons are many, I will list them below:

                          Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

                          The Rewards promised to the Seven Churches are given unto the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4.

                          * A Crown - ( Rev. 2:10, 3:11, 4:4 and 4:10 )

                          * A Throne - ( Rev. 3:21 and 4:4 )

                          * A White Robe - ( Rev. 3:4-5 and Rev. 4:4 )

                          As per the 24 Elders meaning ? or why 24 Elders !! Well this fits 1 Chronicles 24:7-19 where we are told there are 24 orders of priests.

                          So the Church is in Heaven before the Seals are opened, thus the Rapture happens before the Seals are opened !! John saw them in Rev. chapters 4 and 5, the Elders are not in Heaven having marred the Lamb without the Church also being there, there is just ONE MARRIAGE !!
                          On what basis do you declare the 24 Elders the Church? The evidence is against such a supposition.
                          • The number of Israel, the Church and New Jerusalem is twelve, - not 24
                          • John was raptured to heaven to see them and returned to write about them. That means they were there in 95 AD. What is more, even in 95 AD they were already "ELDERS" - having been there a long time.
                          • The only mention of 24 in the Bible is when David followed the "Pattern" of the heavenly Temple. He instituted the service to the Tabernacle and coming Temple to 24 periods of two weeks for the Levites (1st Chron.23:1-6). Twenty-four then is the number of the service in the Temple ON EARTH which in turn was made to the pattern of the Temple IN HEAVEN.

                          And finally, if the Church is in heaven,
                          1. how then did the great multitude connected with Jesus in Chapter 7 go through the Great Tribulation?
                          2. how then are those in Chapter 12, who have the testimony of Jesus Christ, persecuted by the Dragon ON EARTH during the 1260 days?
                          3. how then are the saints OVERCOME by the Beast in Revelation 13:8. The Beast is ON EARTH?
                          4. how then, at the verge of Babylon the Great being destroyed, which is at the end of the Great Tribulation, God makes a call for "His people" to come out of her?

                          My friend, I think you might have to rethink some parts of Revelation. In my first post in this thread (#2), I laid forth a reasonable argument that our Lord Jesus,Who can be everywhere any time, is not only the OPENER of the Seals, but the White Horse and Rider. Convince me that I need to rethink my position? I'm always open to learn.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

                            Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                            1. Our Lord Jesus cannot be in two places at once
                            2. Revelation is sequential

                            Not quite correct. Jesus as a Man is NEVER in two places at once. This is confirmed in EVERY scripture. By His Spirit of course He is in our hearts and is omnipresent.
                            However my point was that IN the vision Jesus is placed opening the scroll, He is ALWAYS declared by His Name, unlike other spirits and angels.

                            Again Revelation has a backbone which is sequential, but to which we have explanatory side visions.
                            The Seals are 100% sequential and are followed by the Trumpets and these are followed by the Vials. There is NOTHING in Revelation which shows this to be incorrect. Further this is the natural reading of it. Additionally there are certain things stated which clearly point to this reality.
                            Why not just address the two scriptures I gave you. Your failure to do that is ominous. Ignoring such plain language is the same as agreeing.

                            Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                            No, Jesus did NOT go to paradise "that day". It is because of what Jesus DID on that day, that the bandit will go to paradise.
                            Luke 23:43; "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." It will not help to argue that the comma is missing in the original and that it should read, "Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise."
                            Firstly, it is incorrect and cumbersome language for someone saying that he/she is speaking on that day. It is obvious that He was speaking on that day. I have yet to see any writer on this Forum claiming that he was writing on "that day". Every reader knows this.
                            The argument that there is no comma is equally valid for the second rendering. Taking it away altogether leaves us with; "And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Even without the punctuation, (i) sooner or later our Lord would be in Paradise, and (ii) sooner or later the criminal would be WITH Jesus.

                            There is no escape. Our Lord Jesus went to Hades (Act.2:27, 31)
                            1. Hades is at the "heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40)
                            2. Our Lord "descended" to the "lower parts of the earth FIRST" (Eph.4:9)
                            3. By resurrection day, in the garden of the Tomb, our Lord had NOT YET "ascended to His Father" (jn.20:17)

                            Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                            The bandit is still dead, and awaiting the resurrection when Jesus returns, just like the rest who have fallen asleep in Christ (1 Thess 4).
                            Jesus was indeed in a tomb on the face of the earth.
                            Psalm 139 does NOT refer to Jesus, but to God.
                            We are NOT present with the Lord whilst we are dead. However to discuss that further would probably have to be discussed elsewhere.
                            Even if Psalm 139 does not refer to our Lord Jesus, John Chapter 14 does. Our Lord will pray for ANOTHER Comforter - the Holy Spirit. And this Holy Spirit will be IN His disciples. But our Lord Jesus says that He is the Comforter and will not leave us Comfortless but be IN US. But He also says that the Father will be IN US. But scripture says that our Lord Jesus sits at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Now, according to your theory, WHERE IS JESUS IN THIS AGE?

                            As to the sequence of Revelation, again you did not address the scriptures I gave. If the Kingdoms of this world are BECOME the Kingdoms of our Lord Jesus by Chapter 11, so fulfilling Daniel, why is the battle for these Kingdoms, and the battle WITH their king, in Chapter 19?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

                              Originally posted by Walls View Post
                              Why not just address the two scriptures I gave you. Your failure to do that is ominous. Ignoring such plain language is the same as agreeing.
                              I did address your scripture, but I don;t accept what you claim the scripture is saying.

                              Luke 23:43; "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." It will not help to argue that the comma is missing in the original and that it should read, "Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise."
                              Firstly, it is incorrect and cumbersome language for someone saying that he/she is speaking on that day. It is obvious that He was speaking on that day. I have yet to see any writer on this Forum claiming that he was writing on "that day". Every reader knows this.
                              The argument that there is no comma is equally valid for the second rendering. Taking it away altogether leaves us with; "And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Even without the punctuation, (i) sooner or later our Lord would be in Paradise, and (ii) sooner or later the criminal would be WITH Jesus.

                              There is no escape. Our Lord Jesus went to Hades (Act.2:27, 31)
                              1. Hades is at the "heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40)
                              2. Our Lord "descended" to the "lower parts of the earth FIRST" (Eph.4:9)
                              3. By resurrection day, in the garden of the Tomb, our Lord had NOT YET "ascended to His Father" (jn.20:17)
                              Indeed Jesus certainly went to Hades. I didn't say otherwise.
                              Actually it is NOT cumbersome or incorrect when someone is stating that something DIFFERENT is happening THAT Day, to make a special reference to THAT Day. In fact that is completely normal. It would be strange NOT to make reference to it.
                              There are no commas in the Greek.
                              Jesus was saying that there is a TRUTH that day, which was NOT true BEFORE that day. A truth taht came to be ON that day.
                              We insert commas to make sense of a larger sentence.

                              Even if Psalm 139 does not refer to our Lord Jesus, John Chapter 14 does. Our Lord will pray for ANOTHER Comforter - the Holy Spirit. And this Holy Spirit will be IN His disciples. But our Lord Jesus says that He is the Comforter and will not leave us Comfortless but be IN US. But He also says that the Father will be IN US. But scripture says that our Lord Jesus sits at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Now, according to your theory, WHERE IS JESUS IN THIS AGE?
                              Jesus does NOT say that Jesus is the Comforter. He clearly states the Holy Spirit is. Jesus is IN us through the Holy Spirit. In the SAME WAY the Father is in us too.
                              Jesus is indeed sitting at the right hand of the Father. Is this a PHYSICAL reality or a SPIRITUAL one. Is there such a thing as a right-hand or is it a picture to help us understand?
                              Jesus is IN Heaven at the Father's right hand, and by the Holy Spirit is IN us. This is because the Father, Son and Holy SPirit are one.

                              As to the sequence of Revelation, again you did not address the scriptures I gave. If the Kingdoms of this world are BECOME the Kingdoms of our Lord Jesus by Chapter 11, so fulfilling Daniel, why is the battle for these Kingdoms, and the battle WITH their king, in Chapter 19?
                              I did address and you don't seem to have followed what I stated.
                              The words are become does NOT mean that at the MOMENT of the 7th Trumpet being blown that the Beast is captured in that SECOND. No there is a delay BETWEEN the blowing and the actuality. It is NOT a twinkling of an eye.
                              So the question is HOW long between the 7th trumpet being blown and the actual defeat of the Beast?
                              The answer is given in Revelation, and is around 42 months.
                              Read Rev 12 and we have the SAME statement "NOW the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come,"
                              Yet we note that this is when Satan is cast down - so though He has come INTO His power, it is but the START of the GT. It is the time of the 7 vials.

                              It is the SAME idea.
                              Read Luke 19 about the nobleman who is crowned King, in a far off land. that is Jesus. He is crowned in Heaven. At His coronation He IS King. The world IS His, but He does NOT come and take what IS His immediately. There is still the GT to go through, the 7 vials to be poured out.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

                                Revelation Man, are you saying the white horse signifies the Antichrist? If so, is this the only horse that represents a specific individual?

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