The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

[Revelation Man]

Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

Have you scripture for this? The thief on the cross next to our Lord might have been a Jew or might not. What is crucial is that He was UNDER the earth. Our Lord Jesus "Descended first to the lower parts of the earth" (Eph.4:9) - the "heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40) - Hades (Act.2:27, 31) - the SAME Hades that holds the "rest of the dead" in Revelation 20.

The word is a Persian word originally, it meant Gardens, but the Jews came to see Paradise as a place where the Jewish Spirits made their abode until the Resurrection and that would have to be Jesus' understanding because he knew he would't be in Heaven for 3 days.

#3857 παράδεισος paradeisos {par-ad'-i-sos}

of Oriental origin, cf H6508; TDNT - 5:765,777; n m
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting
ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals,
were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished
with towers for the hunters
2) a garden, pleasure ground
2a) grove, park
3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be
the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but
some understand this to be a heavenly paradise

He did NOT preach to the spirits in Prison. The main theme of 1st Peter is the Holy Spirit. See 1:2, 1:11, 1:22, 3:4, 3:18-19 and 4:14. When we come to 1st Peter 3:18-20 the grammar reads;

18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

There are no verse divisions in the original text, nor punctuation. So the end of verse 18 going into 19 is one thought. It is,

but quickened by the Spirit By which also he (the Spirit) went (in those days) and preached unto the spirits (now) in prison;"

That is, our Lord Jesus was made alive BY the SAME Spirit that inspired Noah to preach to the angels of Noah's time, but who are now in prison for mating with human women (2nd Pet.2:4).

It means he preached to the Jewish Saints in a holding state of being......Kinda like Paul stated he was a Slave of Christ when we all know it really meant a Servant of Christ.

On what basis do you declare the 24 Elders the Church? The evidence is against such a supposition.
The number of Israel, the Church and New Jerusalem is twelve, - not 24
John was raptured to heaven to see them and returned to write about them. That means they were there in 95 AD. What is more, even in 95 AD they were already "ELDERS" - having been there a long time.
The only mention of 24 in the Bible is when David followed the "Pattern" of the heavenly Temple. He instituted the service to the Tabernacle and coming Temple to 24 periods of two weeks for the Levites (1st Chron.23:1-6). Twenty-four then is the number of the service in the Temple ON EARTH which in turn was made to the pattern of the Temple IN HEAVEN.

Read the passage I gave you {1 Chronicles 24:7-19}, it specifically speaks about the 24 orders of Priests and Rev. ch. 5 and 7 tells us we are heirs and priests unto God.

I clearly with SCRIPTURES show what the Church is PROMISED in Rev. chapters 2 and 3 and in Rev. 4 where the Church in Heaven get the EXACT THINGS that they were PROMISED !! You don't think the Elders are there but the Church comes later do you ? Of course this is just more proof the Rapture is Pre tribulation.

And finally, if the Church is in heaven,
how then did the great multitude connected with Jesus in Chapter 7 go through the Great Tribulation?

Didn't Jesus tell us we would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION ? So they came out of the 2000 some odd year Church Age [Great Tribulation]. We are the ones that MANDATE John has to be speaking of Greatest ever troubles, instead of the Greatest TIME PERIOD EVER. But the facts show John is speaking about the Great Tribulation of the Church Age as in 2000>7. The Martyrs under the Altar are told they MUST WAIT until the Beasts 42 Months reign is over. So those in Rev. 4 and 5 {Rev. 5 shows a Great Multitude that is REDEEMED} are the same ones John sees in Rev. 7, he sees them both BEFORE and AFTER the Seals are opened !! And n Rev. 20:4, it clearly says THOSE hat laid down their lives instead of serving THE BEAST will live and reign on earth with Christ Jesus for 1000 years. The Martyrs are JUDGED after the Second Coming.

how then are those in Chapter 12, who have the testimony of Jesus Christ, persecuted by the Dragon ON EARTH during the 1260 days?

Those in Chapter 12 are the REMNANT CHURCH who come unto Christ AFTER the Rapture.......Think like this......THEY CAN'T BE Jews. The 1/3 who Repent, God will protect, the 2/3 who refuse to Repent will perish, BUT......They thus can't have the Testimony of Jesus can they ? So JEWS DO NOT FIT AT ALL......The Remnant Church does fit.

how then are the saints OVERCOME by the Beast in Revelation 13:8. The Beast is ON EARTH?

SAME, the Remnant Church are the MARTYRS.

how then, at the verge of Babylon the Great being destroyed, which is at the end of the Great Tribulation, God makes a call for "His people" to come out of her?

God calls Israel to come out of Babylon {The Wicked World whom he is about to Judge} lest they PARTAKE IN HER SINS and receive her Plagues. That is shown elsewhere, Jesus tells the Jews to FLEE Judea when they see the Abomination of Desolation. The 144,000 are the Jews who FLEE Judea, it's just a Metaphoric number for ALL ISRAEL. 12 means Fullness thus 12 x 12,000 = ALL ISRAEL.

Rev. 18 also tells of Babylon being a Habitation of devils, and of course it is, Satan has been cast down and Apollyon has been released from the Bottomless Pit. Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD being hit with the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, thus the COMMERCE is destroyed.

My friend, I think you might have to rethink some parts of Revelation. In my first post in this thread (#2), I laid forth a reasonable argument that our Lord Jesus,Who can be everywhere any time, is not only the OPENER of the Seals, but the White Horse and Rider. Convince me that I need to rethink my position? I'm always open to learn.

I understand all of Revelation my friend, thanks to prayer, hard work and blessings, mostly over the last 5 years, whereas for 25 years I was stuck because I was into MEN'S TRADITIONS like people are today. I mean I knew a lot, but holding on to old understandings of Men from years ago stops God from teaching us His understandings. Like those in Heaven HAVING to be from the Great Tribulation/70th Week, all because we PIGEONHOLE God's Vocabulary !! Millions of Church members died during our 2000 some odd year ordeal. We overcame Rome by our blood. Thus Rome suffered the Mortal Wound.

The Seals begin at the 1260 as does the Anti-Christ via Daniel chapter 12.

Jesus OPENS the Seals, he is not the White Horse, that is the Anti-Christ.

[Walls]

Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

The word is a Persian word originally, it meant Gardens, but the Jews came to see Paradise as a place where the Jewish Spirits made their abode until the Resurrection and that would have to be Jesus' understanding because he knew he would't be in Heaven for 3 days.

#3857 παράδεισος paradeisos {par-ad'-i-sos}

of Oriental origin, cf H6508; TDNT - 5:765,777; n m
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting
ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals,
were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished
with towers for the hunters
2) a garden, pleasure ground
2a) grove, park
3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be
the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but
some understand this to be a heavenly paradise



It means he preached to the Jewish Saints in a holding state of being......Kinda like Paul stated he was a Slave of Christ when we all know it really meant a Servant of Christ.



Read the passage I gave you {1 Chronicles 24:7-19}, it specifically speaks about the 24 orders of Priests and Rev. ch. 5 and 7 tells us we are heirs and priests unto God.

I clearly with SCRIPTURES show what the Church is PROMISED in Rev. chapters 2 and 3 and in Rev. 4 where the Church in Heaven get the EXACT THINGS that they were PROMISED !! You don't think the Elders are there but the Church comes later do you ? Of course this is just more proof the Rapture is Pre tribulation.



Didn't Jesus tell us we would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION ? So they came out of the 2000 some odd year Church Age [Great Tribulation]. We are the ones that MANDATE John has to be speaking of Greatest ever troubles, instead of the Greatest TIME PERIOD EVER. But the facts show John is speaking about the Great Tribulation of the Church Age as in 2000>7. The Martyrs under the Altar are told they MUST WAIT until the Beasts 42 Months reign is over. So those in Rev. 4 and 5 {Rev. 5 shows a Great Multitude that is REDEEMED} are the same ones John sees in Rev. 7, he sees them both BEFORE and AFTER the Seals are opened !! And n Rev. 20:4, it clearly says THOSE hat laid down their lives instead of serving THE BEAST will live and reign on earth with Christ Jesus for 1000 years. The Martyrs are JUDGED after the Second Coming.



Those in Chapter 12 are the REMNANT CHURCH who come unto Christ AFTER the Rapture.......Think like this......THEY CAN'T BE Jews. The 1/3 who Repent, God will protect, the 2/3 who refuse to Repent will perish, BUT......They thus can't have the Testimony of Jesus can they ? So JEWS DO NOT FIT AT ALL......The Remnant Church does fit.



SAME, the Remnant Church are the MARTYRS.



God calls Israel to come out of Babylon {The Wicked World whom he is about to Judge} lest they PARTAKE IN HER SINS and receive her Plagues. That is shown elsewhere, Jesus tells the Jews to FLEE Judea when they see the Abomination of Desolation. The 144,000 are the Jews who FLEE Judea, it's just a Metaphoric number for ALL ISRAEL. 12 means Fullness thus 12 x 12,000 = ALL ISRAEL.

Rev. 18 also tells of Babylon being a Habitation of devils, and of course it is, Satan has been cast down and Apollyon has been released from the Bottomless Pit. Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD being hit with the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, thus the COMMERCE is destroyed.



I understand all of Revelation my friend, thanks to prayer, hard work and blessings, mostly over the last 5 years, whereas for 25 years I was stuck because I was into MEN'S TRADITIONS like people are today. I mean I knew a lot, but holding on to old understandings of Men from years ago stops God from teaching us His understandings. Like those in Heaven HAVING to be from the Great Tribulation/70th Week, all because we PIGEONHOLE God's Vocabulary !! Millions of Church members died during our 2000 some odd year ordeal. We overcame Rome by our blood. Thus Rome suffered the Mortal Wound.

The Seals begin at the 1260 as does the Anti-Christ via Daniel chapter 12.

Jesus OPENS the Seals, he is not the White Horse, that is the Anti-Christ.

Thank you for taking the time to answer each point. I have read and noted your beliefs. God bless and go well bro.

[Revelation Man]

Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

Revelation Man, are you saying the white horse signifies the Antichrist? If so, is this the only horse that represents a specific individual?

We have been looking at the Seals all wrong, IMHO. Mostly as per the TIMING. You know those that state the 6th Seal is when the Wrath of God starts, but I have always said the Wrath of God/Lamb starts with the very first Seal at the 1260 Event {First Seal being opened}. I understood the 6th Seal, IMHO, to be when Satan {Stars} is cast down out of Heaven like untimely figs, but Satan{Dragon} is supposed to chase the Woman for 120 days, so that made me think.......and think....here is how I see the Seals.

All 6 are basically opened at the SAME EXACT TIME, Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, BOOM !! The the 7th Seal has to wait until the 144,000 are PROTECTED in Petra/Bozrah, God says HURT NOT the earth, trees or seas. Well what do the Trumpets hurt ? The Earth, trees and the seas !! God makes them hold up until the Jews Flee unto Petra. And we know they Flee Juda at the 1260 {even though think they flee 30 days before that at the 1290, but I don't want to confuse people}, so ALL THE SEALS seem to be opened at the same time, there is no prerequisite for one to be opened and then it has to be FULFILLED before another can be opened, just the opposite, as I will show, but the Trumpet and Vial judgments do indeed go ONE by ONE by ONE....But the Seals are not like that, WATCH:

1st Seal is opened...Anti-Christ goes forth to Conquer {But he's Conquering for 42 Months}

2nd Seal is the Anti Christ TAKING PEACE from the earth, instead of saying war, thus gives us a clue he come to power BY PEACE, just like Daniel 9:27 says. {42 Months of War}

The 3rd Seal is the Anti-Christ and the Famines his Wars bring. {This will last as long as the wars last.}

The 4th Seal is Death/Sickness and the grave/Hades. He kills 1.5 to 2 billion people of a 42 Month period.

The 5th Seal is the testimony of the Martyrs he kills during his 42 Months of terror.

The 6th Seal is OPENED, mankind sees they are in God's Wrath, Satan is cast down from Heaven.

All of these Seals can be opened within milliseconds of each other, the First Four is RELEASING the Anti-Christ/Beast to GO FORTH over a 42 month period of time. The 5th Seal is just a FLASH FORWARD to those all that will die at the hands of the Beast. The 6th Seal opens just a few seconds after the other 5. So its BOOM, BOOM, BOOM.

The First Four are the Anti-Christ actions, the 5th is the Anti-Christs HANDIWORK, and the the 6th Seal is God's announcing His Wrath is come....

I think all 6 are opened withing Seconds or Minutes of each other.

[Revelation Man]

Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

Thank you for taking the time to answer each point. I have read and noted your beliefs. God bless and go well bro.

YW, but these aren't just beliefs brother, I show scripture to back up my understandings brother. God Bless.

[Walls]

Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

I did address your scripture, but I don;t accept what you claim the scripture is saying.


Indeed Jesus certainly went to Hades. I didn't say otherwise.
Actually it is NOT cumbersome or incorrect when someone is stating that something DIFFERENT is happening THAT Day, to make a special reference to THAT Day. In fact that is completely normal. It would be strange NOT to make reference to it.
There are no commas in the Greek.
Jesus was saying that there is a TRUTH that day, which was NOT true BEFORE that day. A truth taht came to be ON that day.
We insert commas to make sense of a larger sentence.


Jesus does NOT say that Jesus is the Comforter. He clearly states the Holy Spirit is. Jesus is IN us through the Holy Spirit. In the SAME WAY the Father is in us too.
Jesus is indeed sitting at the right hand of the Father. Is this a PHYSICAL reality or a SPIRITUAL one. Is there such a thing as a right-hand or is it a picture to help us understand?
Jesus is IN Heaven at the Father's right hand, and by the Holy Spirit is IN us. This is because the Father, Son and Holy SPirit are one.


I did address and you don't seem to have followed what I stated.
The words are become does NOT mean that at the MOMENT of the 7th Trumpet being blown that the Beast is captured in that SECOND. No there is a delay BETWEEN the blowing and the actuality. It is NOT a twinkling of an eye.
So the question is HOW long between the 7th trumpet being blown and the actual defeat of the Beast?
The answer is given in Revelation, and is around 42 months.
Read Rev 12 and we have the SAME statement "NOW the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come,"
Yet we note that this is when Satan is cast down - so though He has come INTO His power, it is but the START of the GT. It is the time of the 7 vials.

It is the SAME idea.
Read Luke 19 about the nobleman who is crowned King, in a far off land. that is Jesus. He is crowned in Heaven. At His coronation He IS King. The world IS His, but He does NOT come and take what IS His immediately. There is still the GT to go through, the 7 vials to be poured out.

Thank you for answering comprehensively. I have noted your arguments. God bless and go well bro.

[Walls]

Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

YW, but these aren't just beliefs brother, I show scripture to back up my understandings brother. God Bless.

In your posting #31 you say concerning the remnant of the Woman's seed, quote

Posting #31
Those in Chapter 12 are the REMNANT CHURCH who come unto Christ AFTER the Rapture.......Think like this......THEY CAN'T BE Jews. The 1/3 who Repent, God will protect, the 2/3 who refuse to Repent will perish, BUT......They thus can't have the Testimony of Jesus can they ? So JEWS DO NOT FIT AT ALL......The Remnant Church does fit.

But the grammar does not allow it. If the whole Church is raptured there is NO REMNANT. The woman has THREE different seeds;

1. The Man-Child who is raptured to the throne
2. The REMAINDER (or REMNANT) who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. If ALL the Church is raptured THERE CAN BE NO REMAINDER! If a new Church (Ekklesia) is raised up during the Tribulation is is NOT a REMAINDER but a FOURTH SEED¨
3. The REMAINDER who keep the Laws of God cannot be Christians because the phrase "the Laws of God" "My laws", "My Law", "God's Laws" and "Law of God" NEVER point to Christ. They are Old Testament concepts and ALWAYS mean the Law of Moses. Christians are told to ignore the Law of Moses. Since Romans Chapters 9 to 11 twice predicts a REMNANT of ISRAEL, and Deuteronomy 30:1-5 says that this Remnant will return to ALL THAT MOSES TAUGHT "THAT DAY" - that is THE LAWS OF GOD, the REMNANT who keep the Laws of God MUST be the Jewish Remnant.

The REMNANT, or REMAINDER, in grammar and mathematics, is ALWAYS PART OF THE WHOLE.

[ForHisglory]

Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

Thank you for answering comprehensively. I have noted your arguments. God bless and go well bro.

As long as they made sense, and you could follow the basis then that is fine.

[Revelation Man]

Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

In your posting #31 you say concerning the remnant of the Woman's seed, quote



But the grammar does not allow it. If the whole Church is raptured there is NO REMNANT. The woman has THREE different seeds;

1. The Man-Child who is raptured to the throne
2. The REMAINDER (or REMNANT) who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. If ALL the Church is raptured THERE CAN BE NO REMAINDER! If a new Church (Ekklesia) is raised up during the Tribulation is is NOT a REMAINDER but a FOURTH SEED¨
3. The REMAINDER who keep the Laws of God cannot be Christians because the phrase "the Laws of God" "My laws", "My Law", "God's Laws" and "Law of God" NEVER point to Christ. They are Old Testament concepts and ALWAYS mean the Law of Moses. Christians are told to ignore the Law of Moses. Since Romans Chapters 9 to 11 twice predicts a REMNANT of ISRAEL, and Deuteronomy 30:1-5 says that this Remnant will return to ALL THAT MOSES TAUGHT "THAT DAY" - that is THE LAWS OF GOD, the REMNANT who keep the Laws of God MUST be the Jewish Remnant.

The REMNANT, or REMAINDER, in grammar and mathematics, is ALWAYS PART OF THE WHOLE.

They are a part of the Whole, they are in Christ, but came to Christ AFTER the rapture. I just explained why THEY CAN'T be Jews.

The Rapture is PRE TRIB/Pre 70th Week, there will be no Rapture for hse not ready, the 5 Virgins were locked out of the Wedding.

The REMNANT of THE SEED..............Means the part of the WHOLE that is LEFT......A whole dress was in Utah, it tore, part {Remnant} was left in Utah, and the the rest of the dress was taken to Arizona. The REMNANT is in Utah, t is still a part of the dress, when he comes back to her mom's the dress will be together again, when Jesus returns the Martyrs will be raised from the dead and join the Bride and Jesus.

The Church is in Heaven, the Remnant is on earth, the are ONE. No one said that weren't, they are all of Christ. We have DEAD IN CHRIST NOW, as we speak, we are ONE with them even though they are not on earth with us per se. The remnant CAN'T BE the Jews. It can only be THE CHURCH. I prove that via logic.

We are the Remnant of THE SEED {Jesus} who was of THE WOMAN {Israel}.

The Remnant can ONLY be the Church. The 1/3 of the Jews who REPENT God protects, shes the woman the Dragon can't get at.....the 2/3 who REFUSE to REPENT can not have the Testimony of Jesus. The Gentiles who repent after the Rapture are the Martyrs.....there is only one reason this will not be accepted, it proves a Pre trib Rapture !!

It is what it is.

[Walls]

Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

They are a part of the Whole, they are in Christ, but came to Christ AFTER the rapture. I just explained why THEY CAN'T be Jews.

The Rapture is PRE TRIB/Pre 70th Week, there will be no Rapture for hse not ready, the 5 Virgins were locked out of the Wedding.

The REMNANT of THE SEED..............Means the part of the WHOLE that is LEFT......A whole dress was in Utah, it tore, part {Remnant} was left in Utah, and the the rest of the dress was taken to Arizona. The REMNANT is in Utah, t is still a part of the dress, when he comes back to her mom's the dress will be together again, when Jesus returns the Martyrs will be raised from the dead and join the Bride and Jesus.

The Church is in Heaven, the Remnant is on earth, the are ONE. No one said that weren't, they are all of Christ. We have DEAD IN CHRIST NOW, as we speak, we are ONE with them even though they are not on earth with us per se. The remnant CAN'T BE the Jews. It can only be THE CHURCH. I prove that via logic.

We are the Remnant of THE SEED {Jesus} who was of THE WOMAN {Israel}.

The Remnant can ONLY be the Church. The 1/3 of the Jews who REPENT God protects, shes the woman the Dragon can't get at.....the 2/3 who REFUSE to REPENT can not have the Testimony of Jesus. The Gentiles who repent after the Rapture are the Martyrs.....there is only one reason this will not be accepted, it proves a Pre trib Rapture !!

It is what it is.

Not so. The REMNANT is not a new crop of Christians. It is the REMAINDER who must flee. That is, they are in existence BEFORE the 1260 days. Example. A Local Church has 200 members. Part of the roof falls in and 20 are killed. What is the REMNANT? a New crop pf 180 or the REMAINING 180?

• Your grammar is incorrect
• Your mathematics is incorrect
• You ignore that the conjunction "and" is also cumulative. "The engine AND the gearbox", show (i) different things, and (ii) TWO different things*
• You were unable to bring one single verse to prove your theory
• You give the MOTHER of the Church as Israel, but New Jerusalem is "mother of us all" (Gal.4:26), and it can't be Israel for it is "FREE" whilst Israel is in BONDAGE (v.25)
• You give the Woman as Israel but the Church is NOT seed of Israel. It is seed of the Holy Spirit (1st Pet.1:23)
• Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10 prove a Pre-Tribulation Rapture but for VERY FEW. It must be "attained to". One must be "accounted worthy". That is, it must be GAINED BY EFFORT.

*Revelation 12:17 reads; "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which (1) keep the commandments of God, and (which) (2) have the testimony of Jesus Christ." There is a REMNANT who were NOT raptured to the throne
▶︎ This Remnant consist of those (1) "who keep the commandments of God* (the Law of Moses in every case)
AND ....
▶︎ The Remnant consist of those (2) "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ"

[Aijalon]

Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

Sorry if this has been asked already, I did a search but didn't find anything.

The title is pretty much self-explanatory. Please share why you believe as you do.

From a Historicist point of view, the Horsemen have all been revealed geographically.

First a horse is in general a symbol of conflict when used in this kind of imagery, there are various examples in the Old Testament we could explore. The rider's name is "conqueror" and this is certainly not in a manner or mere diplomacy because his tool of conquest is his bow. A bow, is a symbol of a nation's military ability, generally (a sword is a symbol for violence and bloodshed and death by war (the second horseman). The crown this rider wears is a Greek word for the victory wreath given to the victor in a contest. The color of the horse is white, symbolizing a general lack of bloodshed (peace).

The resulting image components are integrated: The Pax Romana.

The Roman Imperium successfully (victoriously) achieved a 300 year period of peace, a time like no other on earth. It's military was unchallenged. This period began shortly after the Jewish Revolt, and a Roman civil war.

After the Pax Romana, revolts and war became common as imperial armies battled ethnic tribes. (Red Horseman - death by War)
After the onset of continuous cycle of warfare that continues to this day, there was an international outbreak of economic plague - Feudalism (Black Horseman - death by poverty)
After the class system of enforced poverty which also continues to this day, there was the plague of "death", pestilence and disease - The Black Plague. 1/4 of the earth's population was wiped out by the Black Plague and other diseases.
The 4 demonic principalities of the horseman assume control of the State-Church system and murder those who spoke openly against the apostate church.
After this, there is a "space storm" (the sky is pulled away to show the comets of outer space falling (churches giving up the true Gospel)) followed by a plague of anxiety and resistance to the rule of God. It is also possible that the space storm additionally describes the literal increase in frequency of comets and asteroids streaking through the solar system)

I believe we live in the time all these 7 seals have been opened - which is what is briefly described by Jesus as "the Great Tribulation".
I further believe we live in the time when the great apostasy described by Paul and in the 7 trumpets of Rev 8-9 is revealed.

[Trivalee]

Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

Do You make a difference between Yeshua (Jesus) and the Most High?
Deuteronomy 6:4* Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

In the OT, Yeshua (Jesus) and the Most High (God the Father) were interchangeable. Jesus was often referred to as "Lord God". It is my view that Jesus was more prominent in the OT than we credit him.

[Walls]

Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

They are a part of the Whole, they are in Christ, but came to Christ AFTER the rapture. I just explained why THEY CAN'T be Jews.

.....

Since my previous posting #39 a few hours ago the Lord has spoken to me about my abrupt manner. I would like, not to withdraw my argument, but apologize for not being gracious. We are admonished in Romans 12:10, "Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another." While you were polite, I wasn't. It is obvious that I still have much to learn in my dealings with my fellows in the Lord.

[Revelation Man]

Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

Not so. The REMNANT is not a new crop of Christians. It is the REMAINDER who must flee. That is, they are in existence BEFORE the 1260 days. Example. A Local Church has 200 members. Part of the roof falls in and 20 are killed. What is the REMNANT? a New crop pf 180 or the REMAINING 180?

• Your grammar is incorrect
• Your mathematics is incorrect
• You ignore that the conjunction "and" is also cumulative. "The engine AND the gearbox", show (i) different things, and (ii) TWO different things*
• You were unable to bring one single verse to prove your theory
• You give the MOTHER of the Church as Israel, but New Jerusalem is "mother of us all" (Gal.4:26), and it can't be Israel for it is "FREE" whilst Israel is in BONDAGE (v.25)
• You give the Woman as Israel but the Church is NOT seed of Israel. It is seed of the Holy Spirit (1st Pet.1:23)
• Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10 prove a Pre-Tribulation Rapture but for VERY FEW. It must be "attained to". One must be "accounted worthy". That is, it must be GAINED BY EFFORT.

*Revelation 12:17 reads; "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which (1) keep the commandments of God, and (which) (2) have the testimony of Jesus Christ." There is a REMNANT who were NOT raptured to the throne
▶︎ This Remnant consist of those (1) "who keep the commandments of God* (the Law of Moses in every case)
AND ....
▶︎ The Remnant consist of those (2) "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ"

I have noticed people will go to the nth degree to try and deny the Pre Tribulation rapture. It doesn't say the Remainder, it says THE REMNANT. Of course there will Christians who come to Christ after the rapture, but that means a Pre Trib Rapture doesn't and some just can't go there it seems.

The AND means nothing in reality, at least IMHO, they do BOTH.....By this time the Jews who REPENTED also DO BOTH. You point out with a "CONJUNCTION" of all things, amidst a language that has been translated from Greek, to Latin to Old English to English via a Hebrew Jew. I see the flow and never, ever allow conjunctions and adverbs to overpower the facts or flow of a verse/chapter if I can help it. The Holy Spirit shows us a flw to all passages brother.

Who is Fleeing Judea ? The Woman/Israel, whom the Dragon/Sata can not get at via the Anti-Christ {Just like Herod was used by the Dragon to try and kill baby Jesus}, so he GETS ANGRY, and goes after the REMNANT {Church} of HER SEED {Jesus}, and yes Christians keep the Commandments of God come on, we do it via the Holy Spirit guiding us.

Let me try to explain it with the passage in sight so people might get it via a view a little better..... Sometimes it is just easier that way.


Rev. 12:14 And to the woman{Israel} were given two wings of a great eagle{God protects her}, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, {1260 days} from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood {Anti-Christs Army} after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman {Like in Egypt, wall of fire, Sea parted etc.}, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood {Just like Pharoah} which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth Satan was ANGRY because he couldn't get at the Jews} with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant {Small PART that is left} of her {Israel} seed {Jesus us HER SEED}}, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ {Christians have the TESTIMONY of Christ AND keep the Commandments of God}.

1. It can not be the Church who is in Heaven, and if they were on earth they couldn't be a REMNANT.

2. It can not be the Woman {Israel} who God PROTECTED.

3. It can not be the 2/3 who do not Repent, they neither have the Testimony of Jesus nor keep God's Commandments !!

4. It can ONLY be the Remnant Church on earth.

Since my previous posting #39 a few hours ago the Lord has spoken to me about my abrupt manner. I would like, not to withdraw my argument, but apologize for not being gracious. We are admonished in Romans 12:10, "Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another." While you were polite, I wasn't. It is obvious that I still have much to learn in my dealings with my fellows in the Lord.

I get far worse....I usually don't take umbrage with my fellow brothers if they get a little testy, it happens from time to time. God Bless......

[ForHisglory]

Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

In the OT, Yeshua (Jesus) and the Most High (God the Father) were interchangeable. Jesus was often referred to as "Lord God". It is my view that Jesus was more prominent in the OT than we credit him.

Nope, they were NOT interchangeable, just as they are NOT in the NT.
However Jesus IS God and so IS the Father, and therefore it is a question of whether a particular form of Godhead is being addressed or a generic usage.
We are called to distinguish when scripture distinguishes, but otherwise not and instead see it as simply God.

[Revelation Man]

Re: The white horse in Revelation 6. Who or what is signified?

Nope, they were NOT interchangeable, just as they are NOT in the NT.
However Jesus IS God and so IS the Father, and therefore it is a question of whether a particular form of Godhead is being addressed or a generic usage.
We are called to distinguish when scripture distinguishes, but otherwise not and instead see it as simply God.

Yeshua {Jesus} meas Salvation, in may places in the Old Testament where Salvation is use we can tell its speaking about Jesus. It's hard to explain off hand, but there are places where you can tell the "SALVATION" mention seems to be speaking about a "PERSONHOOD", and the Word Yeshua was used. I got this from a Jewish guy who says one of his Jewish friends kept asking him why Jesus' name wasn't in the Old Testament, and he had nothing to say, the one day he said it hit him like a ton of bricks, yeshus {salvation} is in a lot of places in the Old Testament.