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An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

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  • randyk
    replied
    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
    \

    Just like today, there were no doubt many different beliefs, you no doubt are speaking about ones that agrees with you, but if they were wrong then, and they were, then their points are still invalid, which is why I never try to say what people believed 2000 years ago, I try to stay with today's beliefs, the Holy Spirit is continually teaching us new things, so why is today's understandings not the most relevant facts? We have far more knowledge then they did. We are living in the last days when God promised Daniel these mysteries would be revealed. In those days it wasn't that important, Paul knew it wasn't at hand as did other leaders, today it is at hand. The Jews that were not Christians thought Rme was the Fourth Beast, and it was, if Israel had accepted Christ there would have bee no Church Age, but they didn't, and God knew beforehand they wouldn't of course. Knowing or not knowing, doesn't change the facts, the truths are still truths.
    I'm not at all convinced God reserved greater knowledge of the Scriptures for us today than in the Early Church. Why would they need the Scriptures any less than us? Perhaps we know some things in hindsight now, and are closer to the climax of truth in this age, but this doesn't mean our interpretation of Scriptures are necessarily any more sound. I might even think there is an argument for a great corruption of truth in our day, due to the ongoing apostasy since the advent of Liberal Christianity.

    But I do find it relevant to know if our positions had any credence in earlier times. If our views are too novel, it is highly likely that they are modern innovations, and not Spirit-led truth for the universal Church.

    Originally posted by Revelation Man
    You guys who see Jesus as creating a Covenant here when it just doesn't happen.
    Then I am *not* one of those "guys!" I don't believe Jesus creates a covenant here. I believe he *confirms* a covenant here. He is confirming the covenant God made with the Jewish People.

    Originally posted by Revelation Man
    Really ? You don't see a call for Israel to ATONE/Repent before the 70 Weeks can be fulfilled ?

    Daniel's 70 Weeks Decree against Israel {via Gabriel}


    In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

    1. Finish the transgression {Israel has to STOP their rebellion against God.}
    2. Make and end of sins {Daily WILLFUL sins, during the 1000 year reign men will still be sinners, but have no desire to sin, Satan is in the pit.}
    3. To make reconciliation for iniquity {Israel MUST RECONCILE which means ATONE or REPENT before the 70th week can come to pass}
    4. Bring in everlasting righteousness {Everlasting Righteousness must be brought in before the 70th week prophecy comes to pass, meaning Jesus reigns.}
    5. To seal up vision and prophecy {ALL Prophecy must be FULFILLED/Sealed up}
    6. Anoint the most Holy {Jesus must be ANOINTED as the King of kings and Lord of lords}

    1. The Hebrew word used for transgression denotes revolt or rebellion. The Jewish people chose to reject God, many chose to stay in Babylon once they were freed. It also denotes their rejection of Jesus Christ. Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23:39 that the Jewish people would not see him again until they accepted him. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. So in order for Jesus to return, Israel has to repent of their rejection of God and Jesus, and Israel will open their hearts to the Messiah, as Paul, Isaiah and Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) prophesied, among others.

    2. This is fairly straightforward, sins can only end when the millennial reign starts, so by the time this 70 week decree is over, Jesus will have returned to set up his kingdom, ushering in the millennial kingdom where there will be no sins. Since the tribulation week is the last week of the 70 weeks decree, that makes perfect sense, as soon as the tribulation period ends, or the "time of Jacob's trouble", then "sins will end".

    3. Israel has to be reconciled unto God before the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. There is no doubt that Jesus died for all of our sins, thus the atonement for sins has been made, but there is a conditional requirement for all of us to receive that atonement, we must accept Jesus as our Savior. When Israel accepts the Messiah Jesus, as their Messiah, then the atonement for sins will have been completed, and Israel will have been reconciled unto God, thereby ushering in the millennial kingdom.

    4. This 70 week decree has to bring in everlasting righteousness, and we know this can not happen until Jesus sets up his Kingdom. This world has always had sin, and always will until Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. By the time Daniels prophecy ends, it must usher in everlasting righteousness.

    5. Seal up vision and prophecy, the word used here denotes to close up, meaning that before this 70th week can come to an end, all prophecy must be fulfilled or closed up. This will only happen when Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah and he lands on Mt. Zion to rule over this wicked world with a rod of iron.

    6. The very last goal that this 70 week prophecy has to usher in is the anointing of the most holy. The bible says most holy, many try to add holy place, but whether it is the temple being anointed, or Jesus Christ as Lord of Lord and Kings of Kings as I suspect, we know this must happen before the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled. And Jesus must return and rule on earth.

    All six of these things have to happen before this prophecy is fulfilled. These are six spiritual goals that have to come to pass or this prophecy will not be finished or sealed up. We know these things have not come to pass yet, but we also know they are very near to happening, therefore watch, for Israel is now a nation again, and the world is against her, soon she will need her Messiah s help, then she will call upon him, and he will save her from this wicked world.

    This Prophecy has ZERO t do with Jesus dying for our sins, it all about Israel REPENTING, Abraham was made righteous WAY BEFORE Jesus died for our sins, it was BY PROMISE. Don't get hung up on the actual death, we were forgiven before the foundation of the world.

    The 70th Week can not come to pass until Israel REPENTS.

    Gotta go check on my mom, and get her some food, I will finish later....God Bless brother. Just remember, sword sharpens sword. Its all good.
    Yea, it is. We disagree on this because you interpret the "6 things" in Dan 9.24 as "Israel's repentance." I, on the other hand, view them as fulfilled at the cross by Jesus. How you interpret this determines your outlook.

    Leave a comment:


  • Revelation Man
    replied
    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    I'm talking about what we do know--not about myths. What we know about the Church Fathers is that they had views about Dan 9, the 70 Weeks, and the Olivet Discourse. They did not, for the most part, believe this was about the Antichrist. Prophecy of the Antichrist is found in Dan 7. There were a few Church Fathers who did indeed see the Antichrist in these passages, and so such a view does have validity. But I'm just saying that *most* of the Church Fathers believed these passages had to do with the destruction of the OT system, which took place in 70 AD and afterwards.
    \

    Just like today, there were no doubt many different beliefs, you no doubt are speaking about ones that agrees with you, but if they were wrong then, and they were, then their points are still invalid, which is why I never try to say what people believed 2000 years ago, I try to stay with today's beliefs, the Holy Spirit is continually teaching us new things, so why is today's understandings not the most relevant facts? We have far more knowledge then they did. We are living in the last days when God promised Daniel these mysteries would be revealed. In those days it wasn't that important, Paul knew it wasn't at hand as did other leaders, today it is at hand. The Jews that were not Christians thought Rme was the Fourth Beast, and it was, if Israel had accepted Christ there would have bee no Church Age, but they didn't, and God knew beforehand they wouldn't of course. Knowing or not knowing, doesn't change the facts, the truths are still truths.

    Why are you referring to me as "you guys?" What other guy is involved in my position? And I don't understand your reference to "the Wall?" What is that all about?
    You guys who see Jesus as creating a Covenant here when it just doesn't happen.

    Anyway, I don't see anything about Israel repenting before the 70th Week? On the contrary, it appears that the Messiah comes to deal with "transgression" and "sin," as indicated in Dan 7.24, which are the 6 things Messiah comes to fulfill.

    Israel's sin achieved its height at the 1st coming of Christ, when they crucified him. That's when Messiah's work was done, and that was, I believe, the fulfillment of the 70th Week. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple followed in that generation.
    Really ? You don't see a call for Israel to ATONE/Repent before the 70 Weeks can be fulfilled ?

    Daniel's 70 Weeks Decree against Israel {via Gabriel}


    In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

    1. Finish the transgression {Israel has to STOP their rebellion against God.}
    2. Make and end of sins {Daily WILLFUL sins, during the 1000 year reign men will still be sinners, but have no desire to sin, Satan is in the pit.}
    3. To make reconciliation for iniquity {Israel MUST RECONCILE which means ATONE or REPENT before the 70th week can come to pass}
    4. Bring in everlasting righteousness {Everlasting Righteousness must be brought in before the 70th week prophecy comes to pass, meaning Jesus reigns.}
    5. To seal up vision and prophecy {ALL Prophecy must be FULFILLED/Sealed up}
    6. Anoint the most Holy {Jesus must be ANOINTED as the King of kings and Lord of lords}

    1. The Hebrew word used for transgression denotes revolt or rebellion. The Jewish people chose to reject God, many chose to stay in Babylon once they were freed. It also denotes their rejection of Jesus Christ. Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23:39 that the Jewish people would not see him again until they accepted him. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. So in order for Jesus to return, Israel has to repent of their rejection of God and Jesus, and Israel will open their hearts to the Messiah, as Paul, Isaiah and Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) prophesied, among others.

    2. This is fairly straightforward, sins can only end when the millennial reign starts, so by the time this 70 week decree is over, Jesus will have returned to set up his kingdom, ushering in the millennial kingdom where there will be no sins. Since the tribulation week is the last week of the 70 weeks decree, that makes perfect sense, as soon as the tribulation period ends, or the "time of Jacob's trouble", then "sins will end".

    3. Israel has to be reconciled unto God before the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. There is no doubt that Jesus died for all of our sins, thus the atonement for sins has been made, but there is a conditional requirement for all of us to receive that atonement, we must accept Jesus as our Savior. When Israel accepts the Messiah Jesus, as their Messiah, then the atonement for sins will have been completed, and Israel will have been reconciled unto God, thereby ushering in the millennial kingdom.

    4. This 70 week decree has to bring in everlasting righteousness, and we know this can not happen until Jesus sets up his Kingdom. This world has always had sin, and always will until Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. By the time Daniels prophecy ends, it must usher in everlasting righteousness.

    5. Seal up vision and prophecy, the word used here denotes to close up, meaning that before this 70th week can come to an end, all prophecy must be fulfilled or closed up. This will only happen when Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah and he lands on Mt. Zion to rule over this wicked world with a rod of iron.

    6. The very last goal that this 70 week prophecy has to usher in is the anointing of the most holy. The bible says most holy, many try to add holy place, but whether it is the temple being anointed, or Jesus Christ as Lord of Lord and Kings of Kings as I suspect, we know this must happen before the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled. And Jesus must return and rule on earth.

    All six of these things have to happen before this prophecy is fulfilled. These are six spiritual goals that have to come to pass or this prophecy will not be finished or sealed up. We know these things have not come to pass yet, but we also know they are very near to happening, therefore watch, for Israel is now a nation again, and the world is against her, soon she will need her Messiah s help, then she will call upon him, and he will save her from this wicked world.

    This Prophecy has ZERO t do with Jesus dying for our sins, it all about Israel REPENTING, Abraham was made righteous WAY BEFORE Jesus died for our sins, it was BY PROMISE. Don't get hung up on the actual death, we were forgiven before the foundation of the world.

    The 70th Week can not come to pass until Israel REPENTS.

    Gotta go check on my mom, and get her some food, I will finish later....God Bless brother. Just remember, sword sharpens sword. Its all good.

    Leave a comment:


  • randyk
    replied
    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
    I don't even understand the point, we really can't "KNOW"what the early church understood in full, nor could their knowledge even remotely be compared to ours. I mean we once thought the earth was flat also, so I don't know what thy knew, but that has no bearing on the facts in reality.
    I'm talking about what we do know--not about myths. What we know about the Church Fathers is that they had views about Dan 9, the 70 Weeks, and the Olivet Discourse. They did not, for the most part, believe this was about the Antichrist. Prophecy of the Antichrist is found in Dan 7. There were a few Church Fathers who did indeed see the Antichrist in these passages, and so such a view does have validity. But I'm just saying that *most* of the Church Fathers believed these passages had to do with the destruction of the OT system, which took place in 70 AD and afterwards.

    Originally posted by Revelation Man
    The Prophecy has nothing to do with Jesus Christ, its about Israel. There are TWO MARKERS, The Wall, and Jesus Christ. Before the Wall, between the Wall and Jesus, and there is one week left to repent in. The Prophecy says Israel must repent before the 70th week can come to pass. I know you don't think Israel has repented so how do you guys get around these facts ? Well many try to make Israel and the Church ONE....which is just untrue, and without that there can be no way that anyone can see Israel as having repented/atoned at this moment. Its a future happening.
    Why are you referring to me as "you guys?" What other guy is involved in my position? And I don't understand your reference to "the Wall?" What is that all about?

    Anyway, I don't see anything about Israel repenting before the 70th Week? On the contrary, it appears that the Messiah comes to deal with "transgression" and "sin," as indicated in Dan 7.24, which are the 6 things Messiah comes to fulfill.

    Israel's sin achieved its height at the 1st coming of Christ, when they crucified him. That's when Messiah's work was done, and that was, I believe, the fulfillment of the 70th Week. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple followed in that generation.

    Originally posted by Revelation Man
    I just can't comprehend how people can insert Jesus in the passage to Confirm the AGREEMENT....Covenant mans agreement, not Holy Agreement, maybe that is the hangup. Dan. 11:40-43 tells us who the MANY ARE !! Its not just an Agreement with Israel, its an Agreement with the whole Mediterranean Sea Region. Then he conquers MANY NATIONS.
    Since the "Anointed One" is indeed in the context, I interpret the Messiah to be the one who confirms the 6 things stated that will be accomplished in Dan 9.24. It is, basically, a confirmation of what the OT Law had alluded to, the atonement of Christ. It was a confirmation of God's eternal covenant with Israel.

    Originally posted by Revelation Man
    Each passage clearly cites it as END TIME EVENTS. There were no chapters and verses, those two chapters tell the same story about the same individual, from the TWO PLACES he arises from....the E.U. {Fourth Beast}and from one of the Four Generals Kingdoms in the END TIMES........Greece. And Greece is in the E.U. that is the only one of the Four Generals Kingdoms that fit the criteria. Then we get the Dan. 11 passage which entail all the Greek Kings, I WONDER WHY ? And Antiochus is his forerunner, and Antiochus has a High Priest named Jason who tried to Hellenize the Jews but the Maccabeans Revolted, THINK False Prophet FORERUNNER !!
    Since I believe Dan 8 and 11 are largely about Antiochus 4, one of the branches off of Alexander's empire, I don't think they have a thing to do with the Antichrist! The Antichrist is described in Dan 7 as emerging as leader over a 10 nation empire, probably located in Europe.

    Originally posted by Revelation Man
    Then in the last 10 or so verses of chapter we are told about the coming Anti-Christ.
    I believe that none of Dan 11 has a thing to do with the Antichrist. It is all about Antiochus 4, whose reign initiates a time of trouble for Israel, resulting in the Jewish Diaspora under the Romans. This is what Jesus talked about in his Olivet Discourse, when he said that Israel would be led into exile until the times of the Gentiles are completed. It all began in the time of Antiochus, with judgment peaking in 70 - 135 AD. Then a long wandering began for Israel, which will end at Christ's 2nd Coming. We have different views, and that's okay.

    Leave a comment:


  • Revelation Man
    replied
    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Originally posted by Walls View Post
    There is no comparison between the two.
    • Those who must flee in Matthew 24 do so with their own power - the Woman of Revelation 12 is given eagles wings
    The eagles wings refer to God protecting her, that should be obvious, if the Anti-Christ {whom the Dragon sends after her} can't get at her, the God has to be protecting her. Rev. 7 says God orders the Angels to HOLD UP on the coming Trumpet Judgments { hurt not the trees, seas and the earth} until the 144, 000 {Jews that Flee Judea} are safe.

    Those who must flee must flee to the mountains - the Woman is carried by wings to the Wilderness
    The word used for WILDERNESS means a place of solitude, or a place where one can be alone, it doesn't mean Wilderness per say the way we see it.

    Those who must flee "see" the Abomination of Desolation - the Woman is carried away to avoid the Dragon
    The Dragon is Satan, just like he used King Herod to try and kill baby Jesus he will use the Anti-Christ to try and kill the Jewish peoples. Just like he used Hitler etc. The AoD is a warning to those Jews who REPENTED to Flee Judea. the False Prophet places the AoD in the Temple in my opinion, 30 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem, thus at the 1290 which comes 30 days BEFORE the 1260, both NUMBERS are how long it is from each event until the Second Coming !! So yes, she Flees to a place God will protect her via Gods {Jesus/Matt. 24} guidance, just before the Beast or Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem/Israel/Region to become THE BEAST.

    Those who must flee are subject to the Law of Moses - the Woman has no such restriction
    They have already repented, we are all under Grace.

    Those who "see" the Abomination of Desolation must be in and around Jerusalem - the Woman is in heaven
    John sees a Vision in Heaven because it had to do with the Sun, Moon and the 12 Stars {Gen. 37}. The Woman = Israel, not the Church.

    Those who flee face the Great Tribulation - the Woman is helped by the earth
    You don't think the 1/3 who Flee face the Great Tribulation ? Many of their family members who refused to repent {2/3} will DIE !! They have to live in Petra/Bozrah for 3.5 years, so they do have to endure Tribulation, the very fact that they must live in the Mountains for 3.5 years is TROUBLES !! The EARTH stops the Anti-Christ just like it stopped the Pharos from killing the Jews, {wall of fire/Sea parts etc.}.

    The Great Tribulation is God's wrath on men - the Woman faces a "flood" from the Dragon
    The Flood is the Anti-Christ's Army....just like the prophecy says in Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    Flood just means an Army coming against.....................

    Those who flee, being under Law of the Sabbath, are Jews who hate Christ - The Woman brought forth "those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ"
    The Jews who repent are the ONLY ONES that Flee, they OBEY Jesus !! Matt. 24.........Flee Judea.

    There is no such term or concept of "faithful Israel" in the whole Bible. Moses, the prophets, John Baptist, Jesus and the Apostles ALL concluded Israel a stiff-necked rebellious unfaithful generation of vipers. God concludes "ALL Israel in UNBELIEF" (Rom.11:32)
    They were FAITHFUL ENOUGH to bring forth the SEED that brought Salvation unto the Whole World.....there is no such thing as a Man without sin either, that doesn't mean we are not of God via Grace.

    Leave a comment:


  • Revelation Man
    replied
    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    On the contrary, most of the early Christians tended to interpret this the way I do--not the way you do. Actually, both views existed in the Early Church--it's just that my view seems to have been more prevalent.
    I don't even understand the point, we really can't "KNOW"what the early church understood in full, nor could their knowledge even remotely be compared to ours. I mean we once thought the earth was flat also, so I don't know what thy knew, but that has no bearing on the facts in reality.

    I do interpret the Roman Army to be the ones who desolated Jerusalem and the temple, as indicated in Dan 9.26. I just don't think that the Romans were the ones who made a covenant for the last Week. Instead, I think the passage is identifying the Messiah as the one who makes a covenant in that last Week, in order to fulfill the 6 things mentioned in Dan 9.24.

    The order, from my pov, is this:
    1) Christ confirms the covenant of Salvation in the 70th Week.
    2) The Roman Army desolates the city of Jerusalem and the temple.
    The Prophecy has nothing to do with Jesus Christ, its about Israel. There are TWO MARKERS, The Wall, and Jesus Christ. Before the Wall, between the Wall and Jesus, and there is one week left to repent in. The Prophecy says Israel must repent before the 70th week can come to pass. I know you don't think Israel has repented so how do you guys get around these facts ? Well many try to make Israel and the Church ONE....which is just untrue, and without that there can be no way that anyone can see Israel as having repented/atoned at this moment. Its a future happening.

    I just can't comprehend how people can insert Jesus in the passage to Confirm the AGREEMENT....Covenant mans agreement, not Holy Agreement, maybe that is the hangup. Dan. 11:40-43 tells us who the MANY ARE !! Its not just an Agreement with Israel, its an Agreement with the whole Mediterranean Sea Region. Then he conquers MANY NATIONS.

    No, I don't believe the Little Horn of Dan 7 is the same Little Horn of Dan 8. There's not much more I can say about it, since the context is what determines the Little Horn is in each case--not the fact they are identical terms.
    Each passage clearly cites it as END TIME EVENTS. There were no chapters and verses, those two chapters tell the same story about the same individual, from the TWO PLACES he arises from....the E.U. {Fourth Beast}and from one of the Four Generals Kingdoms in the END TIMES........Greece. And Greece is in the E.U. that is the only one of the Four Generals Kingdoms that fit the criteria. Then we get the Dan. 11 passage which entail all the Greek Kings, I WONDER WHY ? And Antiochus is his forerunner, and Antiochus has a High Priest named Jason who tried to Hellenize the Jews but the Maccabeans Revolted, THINK False Prophet FORERUNNER !!

    Then in the last 10 or so verses of chapter we are told about the coming Anti-Christ.

    Leave a comment:


  • Walls
    replied
    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Often people refer to this extended day of the Lord, but I agree with you it's just the one day.

    The woman fleeing is the faithful of Israel, the conservative "orthodox" rather than the liberal new age "Kabbalists" who will bend their knee to the antichrist (false Messiah)

    This fits in with the fleeing of Matthew 24, also an event occurring 3.5 years before the end.
    There is no comparison between the two.
    • Those who must flee in Matthew 24 do so with their own power - the Woman of Revelation 12 is given eagles wings
    • Those who must flee must flee to the mountains - the Woman is carried by wings to the Wilderness
    • Those who must flee "see" the Abomination of Desolation - the Woman is carried away to avoid the Dragon
    • Those who must flee are subject to the Law of Moses - the Woman has no such restriction
    • Those who "see" the Abomination of Desolation must be in and around Jerusalem - the Woman is in heaven
    • Those who flee face the Great Tribulation - the Woman is helped by the earth
    • The Great Tribulation is God's wrath on men - the Woman faces a "flood" from the Dragon
    • Those who flee, being under Law of the Sabbath, are Jews who hate Christ - The Woman brought forth "those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ"
    • There is no such term or concept of "faithful Israel" in the whole Bible. Moses, the prophets, John Baptist, Jesus and the Apostles ALL concluded Israel a stiff-necked rebellious unfaithful generation of vipers. God concludes "ALL Israel in UNBELIEF" (Rom.11:32)

    Leave a comment:


  • DurbanDude
    replied
    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Originally posted by OrokuSaki View Post
    Not sure why but I can't edit a post and I am new here.. I just get a spinning wheel, tried chrome and firefox. I used to run a vbulletin site so figured maybe it was a restriction..

    Anyways... who do you think the woman who goes into the wilderness is? The church?
    Often people refer to this extended day of the Lord, but I agree with you it's just the one day.

    The woman fleeing is the faithful of Israel, the conservative "orthodox" rather than the liberal new age "Kabbalists" who will bend their knee to the antichrist (false Messiah)

    This fits in with the fleeing of Matthew 24, also an event occurring 3.5 years before the end.

    Leave a comment:


  • randyk
    replied
    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Dan. 7 and 8 are both about the Little Horn, it even calls him the Little Horn.

    Dan. 9 is partly about the people {Romans/Europeans} of the Prince that SHALL COME {Anti-Christ} so its about both, but mostly about the End Time Anti-Christ. You don't really believe a Roman made a Covenant with Israel and the MANY 2000 years ago do you ? When everything doesn't fit the scriptures, it can't be right, too many people just accept things that seem right or close.
    On the contrary, most of the early Christians tended to interpret this the way I do--not the way you do. Actually, both views existed in the Early Church--it's just that my view seems to have been more prevalent.

    I do interpret the Roman Army to be the ones who desolated Jerusalem and the temple, as indicated in Dan 9.26. I just don't think that the Romans were the ones who made a covenant for the last Week. Instead, I think the passage is identifying the Messiah as the one who makes a covenant in that last Week, in order to fulfill the 6 things mentioned in Dan 9.24.

    The order, from my pov, is this:
    1) Christ confirms the covenant of Salvation in the 70th Week.
    2) The Roman Army desolates the city of Jerusalem and the temple.

    Vss. 26 and 27 is a parallelism, each verse repeating the same order:

    Vs 26:
    1) Christ dies
    2) The Romans destroy the city and the sanctuary
    Vs 27:
    1) Christ confirms a covenant in the last Week
    2) An abominable desolator, the Roman Army, stands in proximity to the temple

    No, I don't believe the Little Horn of Dan 7 is the same Little Horn of Dan 8. There's not much more I can say about it, since the context is what determines the Little Horn is in each case--not the fact they are identical terms.

    Leave a comment:


  • Revelation Man
    replied
    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    There are a number of issues that I could address in your notes, but would prefer to deal with them separately. We agree on some things. On others we wouldn't agree.

    I will just deal with one issue here. I think you are conflating Dan 7 with Dan 8. Dan 7 deals with the 3.5 years of Antichristian Reign. Dan 8 deals with ancient Persia and with the ancient Greek Empire. The Abomination of Desolation refers to Antiochus 4 of the ancient Syrian Kingdom.

    There is a completely different AoD in Dan 9, which doesn't have anything to do with either Antiochus 4 or the Antichrist, in my view. There, the AoD refers, I think, to the desolation of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. This is also what Jesus referred to in his Olivet Discourse (Matt 24; Mark 13; Luke 17;21).

    We are apparently both postribulational. That's good!
    Dan. 7 and 8 are both about the Little Horn, it even calls him the Little Horn.

    Dan. 9 is partly about the people {Romans/Europeans} of the Prince that SHALL COME {Anti-Christ} so its about both, but mostly about the End Time Anti-Christ. You don't really believe a Roman made a Covenant with Israel and the MANY 2000 years ago do you ? When everything doesn't fit the scriptures, it can't be right, too many people just accept things that seem right or close.

    Leave a comment:


  • randyk
    replied
    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Originally posted by OrokuSaki View Post
    I am still fascinated with Revelations 12.
    There are a number of issues that I could address in your notes, but would prefer to deal with them separately. We agree on some things. On others we wouldn't agree.

    I will just deal with one issue here. I think you are conflating Dan 7 with Dan 8. Dan 7 deals with the 3.5 years of Antichristian Reign. Dan 8 deals with ancient Persia and with the ancient Greek Empire. The Abomination of Desolation refers to Antiochus 4 of the ancient Syrian Kingdom.

    There is a completely different AoD in Dan 9, which doesn't have anything to do with either Antiochus 4 or the Antichrist, in my view. There, the AoD refers, I think, to the desolation of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. This is also what Jesus referred to in his Olivet Discourse (Matt 24; Mark 13; Luke 17;21).

    We are apparently both postribulational. That's good!

    Leave a comment:


  • ForHisglory
    replied
    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post
    More then one day of the Lord isn't anywhere in Scripture, what is in Scripture is the three stages of the Day of the Lord which are represented by the seals (the day of the Lord), the trumpets (the great day of the Lord, Zep. 1:14) and the bowls (the great and dreadful day of the Lord, Mal. 4:5) of the last seven of Daniel mentioned in the Revelation.

    If you look up the phrase « day of the Lord » you can get a pretty good idea what it is and that there is only one, for example:

    Isa. 2:12 « For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty ... ».
    Isa. 13:6 « Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty ».
    Joel 2:1 « Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand ».
    Amos 5:18 « Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light ».
    Mal. 4:5 « Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD ».

    Acts 2:20 « The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come ».
    1 Thess. 5:2 « For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night ».

    The day of the Lord is the « day » of vengeance at the end of this aion where all those on the earth who think they are something (proud and lofty) will be humiliated when the fierce anger of the LORD come upon them, Zep. 2:2.

    Aristarkos
    Problem for you, that GREAT and NOTABLE DAY as stated in Acts 2:20 happened. It happened on the DAY when Jesus died. This is why Peter CONFIDENTLY declared :
    Joe 2:28* “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.

    After what? AFTER the DAY when the sun was turned to darkness.
    You see there are multiple DAYS and some are about the DAY of Jacob's trouble, and some for Israel's restoration.
    It is NOT the SAME Day.

    Leave a comment:


  • ForHisglory
    replied
    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Originally posted by OrokuSaki View Post
    Well.. the one in Matthew 24 is the one I was thinking about. I just assumed it is the same day of the Lord throughout the bible.. What are some different examples of that? I kinda thought it is a mystery which is kinda like what Corinthians describes that scenario being like I guess. Where did all these people come from? But maybe it was just the sealed 144,000, otherwise who were all the people that died during the great tribulation? The "great multitude, which no man can number"..
    OK in Matt 24:15 - 28 we have a Day which is when the Abomination is seen in the holy place. Yet this is also a Day of the Lord, as stated by Jesus in Luke 17:
    Luk 17:30* so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.*
    Luk 17:31* On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.

    Hopefully you can see that Luke 17:30 is a DAY when the Son of Man is revealed, but it is ALSO the DAY to flee, which means it is DIRECTLY tied into Matt 24:
    Mat 24:17* Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,*

    So this is an EXAMPLE of the reality that there is a DAY whihc is a DAY of the Lord when He is revealed, and YET it is NOT the DAY when He returns.

    This ties into Zech 14 which speaks of a DAY, yet includes elements of the fleeing AND later speaks of the DAY of restoration, without clarifying that it is ACTUALLY separate days.

    So you could say it is a mystery, yet one which when we look at what happens on a DAY we can understand what God is doing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Revelation Man
    replied
    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Originally posted by OrokuSaki View Post
    I didn't have access to a computer for awhile, and decided to come up with an "end of days timeline". 3 weeks went by and my friends were like "Are you still alive?"... Anyways.. this was the timeline.









    SOME HIGHLIGHTED THINGS I SEE, overall you notes are pretty good, I think you conflate som issues.

    1.) I see you understand the AoD starts at the 1290 or at least it seems that way. Daniel 12 is very complex, but if one digests the info the right way he can understand the three numbers given unto us, the 1260, 1290 and the 1335. The KEY is understanding that they should all be looked at in the same manner, the 1260 us thus KEY, we are given the understanding of how to view all THREE NUMBERS, we are told there will be 1260 {time, times and 1/2} until ALL THESE WONDERS CEASE !! Meaning until Jesus returns to end all of these wonderous things Daniel has been shown/told about. The problem is everyone looks at the other 2 Numbers as going into the New Millenium when in fact they are to be looked at in the exact same way, Daniel says so when he asks the exact same question in verse 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

    So WHEN WILL THESE THINGS END ? Meaning in like manner with the 1260 Event. Well Jesus {Man in linen} tells him, there will be an Abomination of Desolation that begins 1290 days before these WONDERS CEASE {Jesus Returns} and an Event that starts 1335 days before the Second Coming ends all these Wonders. So everyone gets these numbers BACKWARDS !! The Day they all end is a COMMON DAY, the Second Coming. The 1335 is the Two-Witnesses showing up, the 1290 is the AoD and the 1260 is the Jewish People being DEFEATED by the Anti-Christ. The Jews get a 30 day jump on leaving before the AC Conquers Jerusalem/Israel. Why would the AC allow any Jews to flee once he Conquers Jerusalem ? ANSWER, he wouldn't. The AoD is placed by the False Prophet {Jewish High Priest} after Israel accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah !! The Two-Witnesses get Israel {1/3 of Israel} to repent, Malachi 4:5 points out that this happens BEFORE the DOTL.

    2.) The Day of the Lord {DOTL} is a DAY that God's vengeance starts on, which leads to His Judgment of Mankind and reign of 1000 years, its all ONE EVENT, and it starts on a DAY like all things do of course, thus throughout the bible this DAY is pointed towards. Its not ONE DAY that all of these events happen on nor can it be, its ONE DAY that starts all these events in motion !! The mistake is to take it as a literal day in which all these things happen in, and not a day in which all these events are set in motion on. Logob and common sense tells us all these events can not happen on one day, there are way too many things listed as happening on the DOTL.

    3.) Zechariah 14:1-2 is Jerusalem being Conquered by the Anti-Christ, Zechariah 14:3-4 is Jesus Conquering the NATIONS at Armageddon.

    4.) The Gog and Magog war of Ezekiel are not the same as the Gog and Magog wars of Revelation, the book of Revelation {BoR} uses the Old Testament to paint many pictures for is, like Daniel 5 and Rev. 17, Genesis 37:9 paints a picture of Rev. 12 etc. etc. The Gog Magog war of Ezekiel happens before Armageddon, the Gog Magog war of Revelation ends it all.

    5.) Matt. 24 doesn't really shorten the Days its still ONE WEEK, or 1260 days of Wrath, but it means God will stop MANKIND'S RULE and thus the Beasts days are numbered, God will SUPERNATURALLY SHORTEN his rule on earth to the predetermined 1260 days or 42 Months !!

    6.) There is a Rapture, it happens before the 70th week, we see it in Rev. 4:1, the TRUMPET CALL of Jesus Christ, not a Rev. Trumpet Judgment. We see that Jesus fulfilled the Fall Feasts.....Passover Feast the Feast of Unleavened Bread {without sin} and the Feast of First-fruits {first raised from the dead}........The CHURCH AGE is all alone on the Calendar, it is the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost, we the Church are now Harvesting souls for the Master. What ended the Harvest ? The TRUMPET or the Feast of Trumpets signaled that the Harvest was OVER and that the Feast of Atonement and Tabernacle was nigh at hand !! GET IT ?

    The Fall Feasts must be fulfilled AFTER the Harvest {Church Age} has ended.......Feast of Trumpets, this did nothing but make ANNOUNCEMENTS, the Harvest {Church Age} is over and now Israel is on the Clock, she MUST REPENT before the 70th week ends as per the Prophecy of Daniel as per the words of Gabriel !! So the Trumpet sounds and Jesus calls the Church home, then God sends Elijah {Two-Witnesses} to turn Israel back unto God {Malachi 4:5} and thus the Feast of ATONEMENT comes to pass. Then the LAST FEAST is the Feast of Tabernacle, and the word tabernacle meaNs TO SWELL WITH God !! What does Jesus do for 1000 years ? DWELLS with the Jews in Jerusalem !! Ut all fits like a puzzle....It has absolutely NOTHING to do with a Revelation Judgment Trumpet !! Get the Rapture wrong and it warps everything else a smidgen, but it matters.

    7.) As per Revelation and a thief in the night. A thief can sneak up on you, don't allow God to come va His Wrath while you are IN SIN !! That is all that means. The Rapture is the ONLY POSSIBILITY of someone coming at an hour not predetermined, because we know when the Second Coming is don't we ? 1260 days after the Beast Conquers Jerusalem, there will be no surprise as per the Second Coming !! LOGIC is our friend !! Thus we are told to WATCH.....Which means to keep ourselves PURE in the Lord.

    The First Six Seals are all basically opened at the EXACT SAME TIME !! Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.....BOOM....Then the 7th Seal needs t be held up so the Jews can flee to Petra/Bozrah before the Supernatural Wrath of the Sea, Trees and Earth starts via the 7 Trumpets.

    The Last three Woes are indeed the Last three Trumpets {I am impressed}.

    But the 7th Seal, Trumpet and Bowl are not the SAME EVENTS !! The 7th Seal is ALL 7 Trumpets and the 7th Trumpet is ALL 7 Bowls {3rd Woe}. I understand the confusion, but when one understand that Rev. 11 is not a REAL TIME EVENT it becomes clear. Rev. ha many chapters that are a part of the Chronological Order but it also has many that are not a part of that Chronological Order. The Kingdoms become Gods ar Armageddon in Rev. 16, you see Rev. 11 is not a REAL TIME EVENT. It is about the Two-witnesses Ministry, thus we see the 2nd Woe for a Second time, but WITHOUT the details we saw in Rev. 9, likewise, in Rev. 11 we see the 3rd Woe via the 7th Trumpet and the victory it will bring, but we are NOT TOLD THE DETAILS {just like the 2nd Woe in Rev. 11} like we are in Rev. 16, where the Victory actually happens at Armageddon. In Rev. 14 we also see the victory at Armageddon in the last three verses !! SAME EVENT !!

    Rev,. 12 is all about FUTURE EVENTS, its just an ENCODED SIGN of who the Woman, {Israel} is....It has nothing to do with a Zodiac sign. Chapter 15 talks about a Sign in Heaven also, it just means John saw it in the Heavens.

    Originally posted by OrokuSaki View Post
    I didn't have access to a computer for awhile, and decided to come up with an "end of days timeline". 3 weeks went by and my friends were like "Are you still alive?"... Anyways.. this was the timeline.









    SOME HIGHLIGHTED THINGS I SEE, overall you notes are pretty good, I think you conflate som issues.

    1.) I see you understand the AoD starts at the 1290 or at least it seems that way. Daniel 12 is very complex, but if one digests the info the right way he can understand the three numbers given unto us, the 1260, 1290 and the 1335. The KEY is understanding that they should all be looked at in the same manner, the 1260 us thus KEY, we are given the understanding of how to view all THREE NUMBERS, we are told there will be 1260 {time, times and 1/2} until ALL THESE WONDERS CEASE !! Meaning until Jesus returns to end all of these wonderous things Daniel has been shown/told about. The problem is everyone looks at the other 2 Numbers as going into the New Millenium when in fact they are to be looked at in the exact same way, Daniel says so when he asks the exact same question in verse 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

    So WHEN WILL THESE THINGS END ? Meaning in like manner with the 1260 Event. Well Jesus {Man in linen} tells him, there will be an Abomination of Desolation that begins 1290 days before these WONDERS CEASE {Jesus Returns} and an Event that starts 1335 days before the Second Coming ends all these Wonders. So everyone gets these numbers BACKWARDS !! The Day they all end is a COMMON DAY, the Second Coming. The 1335 is the Two-Witnesses showing up, the 1290 is the AoD and the 1260 is the Jewish People being DEFEATED by the Anti-Christ. The Jews get a 30 day jump on leaving before the AC Conquers Jerusalem/Israel. Why would the AC allow any Jews to flee once he Conquers Jerusalem ? ANSWER, he wouldn't. The AoD is placed by the False Prophet {Jewish High Priest} after Israel accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah !! The Two-Witnesses get Israel {1/3 of Israel} to repent, Malachi 4:5 points out that this happens BEFORE the DOTL.

    2.) The Day of the Lord {DOTL} is a DAY that God's vengeance starts on, which leads to His Judgment of Mankind and reign of 1000 years, its all ONE EVENT, and it starts on a DAY like all things do of course, thus throughout the bible this DAY is pointed towards. Its not ONE DAY that all of these events happen on nor can it be, its ONE DAY that starts all these events in motion !! The mistake is to take it as a literal day in which all these things happen in, and not a day in which all these events are set in motion on. Logob and common sense tells us all these events can not happen on one day, there are way too many things listed as happening on the DOTL.

    3.) Zechariah 14:1-2 is Jerusalem being Conquered by the Anti-Christ, Zechariah 14:3-4 is Jesus Conquering the NATIONS at Armageddon.

    4.) The Gog and Magog war of Ezekiel are not the same as the Gog and Magog wars of Revelation, the book of Revelation {BoR} uses the Old Testament to paint many pictures for is, like Daniel 5 and Rev. 17, Genesis 37:9 paints a picture of Rev. 12 etc. etc. The Gog Magog war of Ezekiel happens before Armageddon, the Gog Magog war of Revelation ends it all.

    5.) Matt. 24 doesn't really shorten the Days its still ONE WEEK, or 1260 days of Wrath, but it means God will stop MANKIND'S RULE and thus the Beasts days are numbered, God will SUPERNATURALLY SHORTEN his rule on earth to the predetermined 1260 days or 42 Months !!

    6.) There is a Rapture, it happens before the 70th week, we see it in Rev. 4:1, the TRUMPET CALL of Jesus Christ, not a Rev. Trumpet Judgment. We see that Jesus fulfilled the Fall Feasts.....Passover Feast the Feast of Unleavened Bread {without sin} and the Feast of First-fruits {first raised from the dead}........The CHURCH AGE is all alone on the Calendar, it is the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost, we the Church are now Harvesting souls for the Master. What ended the Harvest ? The TRUMPET or the Feast of Trumpets signaled that the Harvest was OVER and that the Feast of Atonement and Tabernacle was nigh at hand !! GET IT ?

    The Fall Feasts must be fulfilled AFTER the Harvest {Church Age} has ended.......Feast of Trumpets, this did nothing but make ANNOUNCEMENTS, the Harvest {Church Age} is over and now Israel is on the Clock, she MUST REPENT before the 70th week ends as per the Prophecy of Daniel as per the words of Gabriel !! So the Trumpet sounds and Jesus calls the Church home, then God sends Elijah {Two-Witnesses} to turn Israel back unto God {Malachi 4:5} and thus the Feast of ATONEMENT comes to pass. Then the LAST FEAST is the Feast of Tabernacle, and the word tabernacle meaNs TO SWELL WITH God !! What does Jesus do for 1000 years ? DWELLS with the Jews in Jerusalem !! Ut all fits like a puzzle....It has absolutely NOTHING to do with a Revelation Judgment Trumpet !! Get the Rapture wrong and it warps everything else a smidgen, but it matters.

    7.) As per Revelation and a thief in the night. A thief can sneak up on you, don't allow God to come va His Wrath while you are IN SIN !! That is all that means. The Rapture is the ONLY POSSIBILITY of someone coming at an hour not predetermined, because we know when the Second Coming is don't we ? 1260 days after the Beast Conquers Jerusalem, there will be no surprise as per the Second Coming !! LOGIC is our friend !! Thus we are told to WATCH.....Which means to keep ourselves PURE in the Lord.

    The First Six Seals are all basically opened at the EXACT SAME TIME !! Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.....BOOM....Then the 7th Seal needs t be held up so the Jews can flee to Petra/Bozrah before the Supernatural Wrath of the Sea, Trees and Earth starts via the 7 Trumpets.

    The Last three Woes are indeed the Last three Trumpets {I am impressed}.

    But the 7th Seal, Trumpet and Bowl are not the SAME EVENTS !! The 7th Seal is ALL 7 Trumpets and the 7th Trumpet is ALL 7 Bowls {3rd Woe}. I understand the confusion, but when one understand that Rev. 11 is not a REAL TIME EVENT it becomes clear. Rev. ha many chapters that are a part of the Chronological Order but it also has many that are not a part of that Chronological Order. The Kingdoms become Gods ar Armageddon in Rev. 16, you see Rev. 11 is not a REAL TIME EVENT. It is about the Two-witnesses Ministry, thus we see the 2nd Woe for a Second time, but WITHOUT the details we saw in Rev. 9, likewise, in Rev. 11 we see the 3rd Woe via the 7th Trumpet and the victory it will bring, but we are NOT TOLD THE DETAILS {just like the 2nd Woe in Rev. 11} like we are in Rev. 16, where the Victory actually happens at Armageddon. In Rev. 14 we also see the victory at Armageddon in the last three verses !! SAME EVENT !!

    Rev,. 12 is all about FUTURE EVENTS, its just an ENCODED SIGN of who the Woman, {Israel} is....It has nothing to do with a Zodiac sign. Chapter 15 talks about a Sign in Heaven also, it just means John saw it in the Heavens.

    Leave a comment:


  • blur1
    replied
    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Originally posted by OrokuSaki View Post
    Going over my notes.. I guess the conclusion I come up with is.. The day of the Lord, sounds like when we all would think "rapture" happens.. and I put it at the end of the great tribulation.. But it doesn't explain Revelations 12..
    1) 7 Seals, then 7 Trumpets, then 7 bowls. The 'great tribulation' is God's wrath. God's wrath is caused by the worship of the abomination. God's wrath is announced at the 6th Seal/ start of the Trumpets, start of the Day of the Lord's wrath. The idea in Lev 26:18 of being punished 7 times for disobedience: therefore there are '2 opportunities' / temptations to be overcome - at the start of the 7 Trumpets & and at the 7 bowls. This is why there are 2 'gatherings' (there is no 'whisked away rapture') that occur: at the start of the Trumpets in Revelation 7, the 144,000 & great multitude; & then at the end of the 2nd woe with the 2 witnesses told to 'come up here'.

    2) The Rev 12 child 'caught up to heaven' is at the same time as the end of the 2 witnesses/ 'come up here'. This isn't a whisked away 'rapture', people are being physically gathered by the 'messengers'/ (what in Greek is 'angelos', where we get the word 'angel') and is described in Matthew 25
    “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’

    10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

    Since Paul is the only place people get this notion of being 'whisked away', let's make doubly sure that these 10 virgins are Christians (because the normal argument here is that they are not 'the bride', the 'bride' gets 'whisked away' while these 10 virgins are just 'guests'). Here is Paul's Romans 13
    11Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. 12The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. 14But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.

    Same idea, Christians are sleeping & need to put on the armor of light/ 10 virgins wake up from sleeping and turned on their lamps. that is the start of the kingdom of heaven/ start of the 7th Trumpet.

    After the Rev 12 'woman' gives birth (at the 7th Trumpet), the woman goes into the wilderness. The deceived church/ unfaithful church/ 5 foolish virgins becomes the whore of Babylon of Rev 17, the 'great city that rules the world' (Rev 17:18). The faithful church becomes the New Jerusalem, the great city that will rule the world.

    When Satan is cast down in Rev 12, then he will give power to the beast from the sea & earth at the 7th Trumpet.
    • 1st, Satan is 'in heaven' for 1335 days ('in heaven' just means that he has 'made himself like God'/ an object of worship/ the abomination mentioned in Matt 24:15)
    • then, Satan is cast down/ stops being worshiped (266 days before the end of the 2 witnesses 1260 days; 266 being the length of pregnancy)
    • then, 266 days later the 'beast that is ascending from the abyss' makes war on the 2 witnesses & kills them (this is why the beast is described in Rev 17 as 'the beast that was, is not, & yet is' - it 'was' for 1335 days, then was not, then ascended from the abyss/ sea & earth to become the 'yet is' beast that kills the 2 witnesses.)
    • then the 2 witnesses lie dead for 3.5 days then are told to 'come up here'
    • same time here the woman 'gives birth', then goes into the wilderness
    • 7th trumpet arrives & the faithful are gathered. The woman is in the wilderness during the beast from the sea timeframe of 1260 days. These days are shortened for the elect's sake.

    Leave a comment:


  • Walls
    replied
    Re: An end of days timeline I threw down on paper awhile back

    Originally posted by OrokuSaki View Post
    Not sure why but I can't edit a post and I am new here.. I just get a spinning wheel, tried chrome and firefox. I used to run a vbulletin site so figured maybe it was a restriction..

    Anyways... who do you think the woman who goes into the wilderness is? The church?
    Hi OrukuSaki and welcome to the Forum. I hope it profits you much.

    There is current thread on Revelation 12 in Bible Chat. I have posted on it. To save you going there I'll post it here. Here is my understanding of Revelation 12.

    The Woman is a "great wonder". The Greek for "wonder", "semeion", is usually translated "Sign". It can mean "miracle" and/or "token". Since Revelation 1:1 tells us that Christ will reveal things in this Book by "signs", the Woman is a "great SIGN". She is in heaven. But in verse 4 the Woman is on earth before the delivery of the Man-Child, and on earth for persecution, and her remaining seed are on earth. The only thing that fits such a complexity is that the Woman is a "sign" of heavenly origin and heavenly nature, but her sphere operation is on earth. Thus, she is REPRESENTATIVE or Parabolic as taking her literally would produce an absurdity.

    "Clothed." Clothing, or garments in symbolism or parable is one's works (e.g. Rev.19:8). Her works are like the sun.

    "Sun". The sun depicts Christ for He is the "Sun of righteousness" (Mal.4:2). Christ-like works by the believers are like the "sun" (Matt.13:43)

    "Moon". The moon is a planet that has no light of its own. It must reflect the sun to give light. It is the "lesser light to rule the night" (Gen.1:16)

    "Under her feet". The moon is subject to her. It is her footstool.

    "Twelve". is the number of God's People. 12 Tribes of Israel and 12 Apostles.

    "Stars". Abraham is promised TWO seeds. (i) Seed as the sand of the sea shore, and (ii) seed as the STARS of heaven. The STARS are heavenly in position and nature. By stars the Church is meant. It is heavenly (Heb.3:1), and Christ is the "Day Star" (2nd Pet.1:19)

    "Crown". A crown shows the king or ruler. Israel forfeit the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt.21:43) and the Church will rule the nations (Rev.2:27)

    The common understanding is that the Woman is Israel based on Joseph's dream of Genesis Chapter 37. But the "sign" and its attributes forbids this. (i) Israel was never in heaven. (ii) Israel is not heavenly. (iii) Israel is not a "sign". It is real. (iv) Israel did not bring forth "those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit did. (v) Israel persecuted those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (vi) In Genesis 37 the woman is mother of Joseph, one of FOUR woman who were mothers (plural of Israel). (vii) In Genesis 37 Joseph will become ruler of Egypt, not Judah. Jesus is a Judean. (viii) Israel was never in the Wilderness for 1260 days. Israel was in the wilderness 40 years. (ix) Israel did not flee to the Wilderness because of, "... a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads." Israel was LED there by God for training in warfare (Ex.13:17).

    These nine points above apply equally to Mary, the mother of Jesus. There is only ONE actual commonality between the dream of Genesis 37 and the Woman of Revelation 12. They both represent THE TOTALITY OF GOD'S PEOPLE AT THE TIME. Added to this, there are only TWO other instances of this combination of (i) Christ, (ii) those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ, and (iii) those who keep the commandments of God. It is the Olive Tree of Romans 11, and New Jerusalem. In both of these neither Israel, nor the Church is meant. A Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom (Judg.9, Dan.4, Ezek.31), and New Jerusalem is a City and a Bride. In both Parables Israel and the Church remain separate.

    "The Man-Child"
    The discovery of who the Man-Child is should be easy. He is one of only TWO in the whole Bible. (i) Christ will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Rev.19:15), and (ii) the Overcomers of the Church will rule the nations with a rod of iron. The Man-Child must either Christ, or the overcomers. The sequence of events points to the Man-Child being the Overcomers.
    1. Our Lord Jesus faced Satan, but did not face Satan IN HEAVEN and face him as he was about to fulfill prophecy of the end-times. "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."
    2. Satan was not cast to earth at the time of the rapture of Jesus
    3. At the rapture of Jesus Satan did NOT have "but a short time" of 1260 days (v.12)
    4. The Kingdom of God did not come with the rapture of Jesus. It comes shortly after the rapture of the Church
    5. Revelation 12:10-11 introduce why and when Satan is displaced - "the brethren who were accused day and night" OVERCAME HIM.
    6. Revelation 12:11 shows how the "brethren" OVERCAME him - "by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." All is PLURAL, and Christ does not need His blood to overcome Satan. That is for men's sins.

    The Woman of Revelation 12 CANNOT BE ISRAEL, and CANNOT BE MARY. She is heavenly but on earth. She has THREE SEEDS, (i) the Man-Child who misses the Great Tribulation, (ii) those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ but go through the Great Tribulation, and (iii) those who keep the commandments of God (not Christ) but who also go through the Great Tribulation. She is the TOTALITY of God's people at the time. She will rule. She has the glory of Christ. She will rule Israel. There is only ONE position in the whole Bible that fits her - New Jerusalem MOTHER OF US ALL (Gal.4:26). And the Man-Child must be the OVERCOMERS of the Church.

    Those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ
    In the Parables of the Kingdom in the gospels, it is clear that not all Christian will enter the Kingdom. And in three places scripture sets forth a Pre-Tribulation Rapture AS A REWARD. In Philippians 3:10-14 Paul talks of a "special" resurrection that must be "attained to" and an "UP-calling" (lit. Gk.) that must be "pressed for". That is, the special resurrection and the "Prize" of the Upward call are to GAINED or LOST by EFFORT. The other two scriptures are Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10. In both these scriptures the Great Tribulation is in view and they tell of certain LIVING Christians who will "be accounted worthy" to miss it and stand before the Son of Man. So, just as many Christians will not be counted worthy to partake of Christ's 1,000 year Kingdom, so also will many of the Christians LIVING at the time of the Great Tribulation NOT escape. These are those who (i) pass through the Great Tribulation in Revelation Chapter 7, (ii) must flee to the Wilderness for 1260 days in Revelation 12, (iii) are overcome by the Beast in Revelation 13:7, and (iv) who are in Babylon the Great in Revelation Chapter 18 and should have "come out" of it. They are the seed of the Woman who must pass through the Great Tribulation because of sloth, faithlessness, indifference and habitual sinning.

    I copy and paste the entirety of Revelation Chapter 12 for reference.

    1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

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