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  • Question for partial preterist

    As a partial preterist, how do you interpret this passage?

    Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

    Also, how do you interpret this passage in light of WW2?

    Matt 24:20 "But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; 21 for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.

    Not looking to argue but instead, more interested in answers. I can see why some are partial preterist, and have been investigating it. But these verses are difficult for me to see how they fit into the partial preterist theology.

    Thanks!
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  • #2
    Re: Question for partial preterist

    Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
    As a partial preterist, how do you interpret this passage?

    Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

    Also, how do you interpret this passage in light of WW2?

    Matt 24:20 "But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; 21 for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.

    Not looking to argue but instead, more interested in answers. I can see why some are partial preterist, and have been investigating it. But these verses are difficult for me to see how they fit into the partial preterist theology.

    Thanks!
    Hi Mark signs in the sun moon and stars have never had literal but are symbols signs of judgement. Jesus was referring to the coming judgement of Jerusalem as He was answering the question the deciples just asked Him when would the walls be torn down

    Coming on the clouds was also a sign of judgement see the verse below

    Isiaha 19:1
    1A prophecy against Egypt:

    See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud
    and is coming to Egypt.
    The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
    and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear

    Most believe that the gathering is the rapture but I believe it is Jesus saving the elect He would spare to survive and tell the story of the Roman seige and destruction of Jerusalem. Matthew tells us that for the sake of the elect the days of the seige would be cut short and Luke tells us that the survivors would be taken prisoners to other nations

    The reference to the sabbath shows that this warning was only for the Jews as the city gates would be locked on the sabbath and no one could come in or flee for safety during the seige

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Question for partial preterist

      Meant to add that peter in acts chapter 2 said that he was in the days of the signs of the sun moon and stars

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Question for partial preterist

        Hey Mark, great question. I found this by Gary DeMar. No connection to ww2 or ww3, all fulfilled with the destruction of Judaism in 70AD. Blessings brother.

        Gary DeMar (1996)
        "
        The darkening of the sun and moon and the falling of the stars, coupled with the shaking of the heavens (24:29), are more descriptive ways of saying that "heaven and earth will pass away" (24:35). In other contexts, when stars fall, they fall to the earth, a sure sign of temporal judgment (Isaiah 14:12; Daniel 8:10; Revelation 6:13; 9:1; 12:4). So then, the "passing away of heaven and earth" is the passing away of the old covenant world of Judaism led and upheld by those who "crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Corinthians 2:8). (Taken from:
        The Passing Away of Heaven and Earth)


        "Before the advent of speculative exegesis, most Bible commentators who studied the whole Bible understood the relationship of collapsing-universe language with the destruction of the religious and civil state of the Jewish nation." (Last Days Madness, GA: American Vision, 1997, p. 137)


        Here is a bunch of other peoples perspective ( the sameish as Garys. )
        Last edited by Old man; Apr 23rd 2019, 03:40 AM.
        A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

        מקום כניעה סך הכל

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Question for partial preterist

          Thank you for your answers. BS, isn't that a full preterist website?

          I see I need to clarify my questions.

          Question 1. How do the partial preterist handle the "immediately after the tribulation of those days... Jesus will return".

          Question 2. How is that the tribulation in 70AD was worse than what occurred in WW2? Jesus said the tribulation of those days had never been seen before in the world, nor ever would again.

          I wasn't so concerned about the signs that Jesus spoke about but rather, the thrust of what He was saying.

          Thank you both!
          Matt 9:13
          13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
          NASU

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Question for partial preterist

            Originally posted by marty fox View Post
            Hi Mark signs in the sun moon and stars have never had literal but are symbols signs of judgement. Jesus was referring to the coming judgement of Jerusalem as He was answering the question the deciples just asked Him when would the walls be torn down

            Coming on the clouds was also a sign of judgement see the verse below

            Isiaha 19:1
            1A prophecy against Egypt:

            See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud
            and is coming to Egypt.
            The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
            and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear

            Most believe that the gathering is the rapture but I believe it is Jesus saving the elect He would spare to survive and tell the story of the Roman seige and destruction of Jerusalem. Matthew tells us that for the sake of the elect the days of the seige would be cut short and Luke tells us that the survivors would be taken prisoners to other nations

            The reference to the sabbath shows that this warning was only for the Jews as the city gates would be locked on the sabbath and no one could come in or flee for safety during the seige
            Thank you for this explanation. That answers the first question from the partial preterist view. How then would the partial preterist see this passage:

            matt 24:32 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away. 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 "For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, they were marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 "Then there shall be two men in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. 41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and one will be left. 42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 "For this reason you be ready too; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

            Specifically. How do you see this passage on the coming of Jesus? And the days of Noah?
            Matt 9:13
            13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
            NASU

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Question for partial preterist

              Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
              Thank you for your answers. BS, isn't that a full preterist website?

              I see I need to clarify my questions.

              Question 1. How do the partial preterist handle the "immediately after the tribulation of those days... Jesus will return".

              Question 2. How is that the tribulation in 70AD was worse than what occurred in WW2? Jesus said the tribulation of those days had never been seen before in the world, nor ever would again.

              I wasn't so concerned about the signs that Jesus spoke about but rather, the thrust of what He was saying.

              Thank you both!


              What does BS mean? Just curious. PP and FP cross-over and believe many of the same things. I am not FP. I believe that PP and FP on the same page with this particular issue.
              A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

              מקום כניעה סך הכל

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Question for partial preterist

                Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                What does BS mean? Just curious. PP and FP cross-over and believe many of the same things. I am not FP. I believe that PP and FP on the same page with this particular issue.
                BS was my shorthand for BlueSky. But if this is a full preterist site, I am not sure the rules allow it to be posted here. That's why I ask. And there are MAJOR issues with Preterism. MAJOR. For instance, in Paul's day, he rebuked them pretty hard in Timothy, IMO.
                Matt 9:13
                13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                NASU

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Question for partial preterist

                  Lol BS, I get it. Sorry my brain is moving slow today.
                  A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

                  מקום כניעה סך הכל

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Question for partial preterist

                    Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                    BS was my shorthand for BlueSky. But if this is a full preterist site, I am not sure the rules allow it to be posted here. That's why I ask. And there are MAJOR issues with Preterism. MAJOR. For instance, in Paul's day, he rebuked them pretty hard in Timothy, IMO.
                    It contains both perspectives as they are closely related. It’s hard to find pure pp sites. I try. Mods can remove the link if they choose.

                    FP does not scare me ( as it seems to some ). It’s just a matter of timing, all the same stuff as far as I can see right now. I will look into every view, as, the search for Truth requires this I feel. Dispensationalists hate the preterist view, as it’s polar opposite to theirs, so this makes sense why some sites would “ban” the view. BF is overwhelmingly dispensational so that makes sense.

                    Do you have a scripture for what Paul stated? Like to look at it and research it. I’ve read several articles talking about the ( supposed ?) problems/issues. Some I don’t understand yet, some, our position is misunderstood, all all in between. All worthy of research imo.

                    I personally don’t care who has the truth, I just want it.
                    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

                    מקום כניעה סך הכל

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Question for partial preterist

                      Luke's version actually gives a fuller quote of what He meant by the tribulation:

                      But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21)

                      So I think it's in relation to Jerusalem, not the entire planet. Jerusalem had never seen the scale of destruction that came on it by Rome, and it has never been completely destroyed in that way ever since. But even by comparison to world events/atrocities, the siege still claimed over a million lives - which competes with the battle of Stalingrad - and this is just the body count. If you also consider the living conditions, the infighting and starvation as some Jewish factions burned their own food, it's unlikely we will ever know just how bad it was in 70 AD. Even what we do know about it lines up word-for-word with what Jesus said would happen - and why He urged His followers to run from Judea as far as possible when they saw Rome starting to send its armies.
                      「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
                      撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Question for partial preterist

                        Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                        Luke's version actually gives a fuller quote of what He meant by the tribulation:

                        But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21)

                        So I think it's in relation to Jerusalem, not the entire planet. Jerusalem had never seen the scale of destruction that came on it by Rome, and it has never been completely destroyed in that way ever since. But even by comparison to world events/atrocities, the siege still claimed over a million lives - which competes with the battle of Stalingrad - and this is just the body count. If you also consider the living conditions, the infighting and starvation as some Jewish factions burned their own food, it's unlikely we will ever know just how bad it was in 70 AD. Even what we do know about it lines up word-for-word with what Jesus said would happen - and why He urged His followers to run from Judea as far as possible when they saw Rome starting to send its armies.
                        Spot on and nicely said.
                        A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

                        מקום כניעה סך הכל

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Question for partial preterist

                          Originally posted by Brother Mark
                          As a partial preterist, how do you interpret this passage?

                          Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
                          Preterists and Pre-Millers BOTH need to reexamine their thinking in regards to this verse. It's simply not credible for Preterists (including PPs) to apply a symbolic interpretation to a section of scripture that was spoken in such a 'matter of fact' manner! I appreciate some of their useful research concerning fulfilled prophecy, but this is not one of them. A better approach for Pret's (IMHO) would be to see AD 70 as an initial fulfillment, but precursing a greater fulfillment yet to come.

                          Pre-Mill has a question that also needs to be asked: Why do you trivialise the collapse of the heavenly bodies in order to maintain your belief in a Millennium after the stars have fallen? When I read this in Marks account I can only imagine next a new heavens and a new earth.

                          But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
                          (Mark 13:25)
                          "Your name and renown
                          is the desire of our hearts."
                          (Isaiah 26:8)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Question for partial preterist

                            Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                            Luke's version actually gives a fuller quote of what He meant by the tribulation:

                            But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21)

                            So I think it's in relation to Jerusalem, not the entire planet. Jerusalem had never seen the scale of destruction that came on it by Rome, and it has never been completely destroyed in that way ever since. But even by comparison to world events/atrocities, the siege still claimed over a million lives - which competes with the battle of Stalingrad - and this is just the body count. If you also consider the living conditions, the infighting and starvation as some Jewish factions burned their own food, it's unlikely we will ever know just how bad it was in 70 AD. Even what we do know about it lines up word-for-word with what Jesus said would happen - and why He urged His followers to run from Judea as far as possible when they saw Rome starting to send its armies.
                            Like your post.

                            So I think it's in relation to Jerusalem, not the entire planet.

                            Look what Luke states in a later verse....,

                            34 “Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

                            Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                            Luke's version actually gives a fuller quote of what He meant by the tribulation:

                            But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21)

                            So I think it's in relation to Jerusalem, not the entire planet. Jerusalem had never seen the scale of destruction that came on it by Rome, and it has never been completely destroyed in that way ever since. But even by comparison to world events/atrocities, the siege still claimed over a million lives - which competes with the battle of Stalingrad - and this is just the body count. If you also consider the living conditions, the infighting and starvation as some Jewish factions burned their own food, it's unlikely we will ever know just how bad it was in 70 AD. Even what we do know about it lines up word-for-word with what Jesus said would happen - and why He urged His followers to run from Judea as far as possible when they saw Rome starting to send its armies.
                            Like your post.

                            So I think it's in relation to Jerusalem, not the entire planet.

                            Look what Luke states in a later verse....,

                            34 Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.
                            And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Question for partial preterist

                              Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                              Luke's version actually gives a fuller quote of what He meant by the tribulation:

                              But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21)

                              So I think it's in relation to Jerusalem, not the entire planet. Jerusalem had never seen the scale of destruction that came on it by Rome, and it has never been completely destroyed in that way ever since. But even by comparison to world events/atrocities, the siege still claimed over a million lives - which competes with the battle of Stalingrad - and this is just the body count. If you also consider the living conditions, the infighting and starvation as some Jewish factions burned their own food, it's unlikely we will ever know just how bad it was in 70 AD. Even what we do know about it lines up word-for-word with what Jesus said would happen - and why He urged His followers to run from Judea as far as possible when they saw Rome starting to send its armies.
                              Like your post.

                              So I think it's in relation to Jerusalem, not the entire planet.

                              Look what Luke states in a later verse....,

                              34 Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.
                              And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                              Comment

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