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  • Re: My coming is like Noah's day.

    Originally posted by marty fox View Post
    Rev 20 doesn’t have two different judgment days only one at the end of the chapter.
    That's not correct.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs. Even the Amill scholar Barnes believes not only is there a judgment here but also states it is these dead martyrs that are being judged and there is only one judgment for them, eternal life!

    Verse four only shows those who have authority to judge not that they judge then it is showing there reward of judging so there isn’t any judgement before the thousand years starts.
    Yes there is. There is also a resurrection. There are two days where people are resurrected and judged, before and after the thousand years. The first group are judged and their resurrection was to immortality which is how they can live for a thousand years since that's never been done by a human before.



    Thus the judgement day is after the thousand years just like the text shows so Weeders verses proves his point
    One judgment day is after but there is one before it as well.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

    Comment


    • Re: My coming is like Noah's day.

      Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
      2Thess 1

      9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
      Let us look at who Paul was speaking of in 2 Thess. 1:5-8 "Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

      Clearly that was just that living generation that troubled the saints. There will be many unsaved left alive to start the millennial reign (the goats, if you will).

      1 Cor. 15:23 *"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

      Rev. 22:12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

      Both these verses plainly show the saints being rewarded (judged) at Christ coming.
      John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

      Comment


      • Re: My coming is like Noah's day.

        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
        That's not correct.

        Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

        Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs. Even the Amill scholar Barnes believes not only is there a judgment here but also states it is these dead martyrs that are being judged and there is only one judgment for them, eternal life!



        Yes there is. There is also a resurrection. There are two days where people are resurrected and judged, before and after the thousand years. The first group are judged and their resurrection was to immortality which is how they can live for a thousand years since that's never been done by a human before.





        One judgment day is after but there is one before it as well.
        I see it as a picture in heaven just like The ones on the thrones the 24 elders we see back in revelation chapter 4 and no judging is happening there either . They have the authority to judge and will just like Jesus told the deciples that they will

        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
        That's not correct.

        Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

        Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs. Even the Amill scholar Barnes believes not only is there a judgment here but also states it is these dead martyrs that are being judged and there is only one judgment for them, eternal life!



        Yes there is. There is also a resurrection. There are two days where people are resurrected and judged, before and after the thousand years. The first group are judged and their resurrection was to immortality which is how they can live for a thousand years since that's never been done by a human before.





        One judgment day is after but there is one before it as well.
        I see it as a picture in heaven just like The ones on the thrones the 24 elders we see back in revelation chapter 4 and no judging is happening there either . They have the authority to judge and will just like Jesus told the deciples that they will

        Comment


        • Re: My coming is like Noah's day.

          Originally posted by marty fox View Post
          I see it as a picture in heaven just like The ones on the thrones the 24 elders we see back in revelation chapter 4 and no judging is happening there either . They have the authority to judge and will just like Jesus told the deciples that they will
          So you think the thrones are there, and are sat on and judgment is given to these ones BUT no judging happens? That's not believable. All of that is done to actually commence a judgment and since dead people are said to live means a resurrection took place and that means a judgment took place. The fact that the rest of the dead "lived not" meaning were resurrected not until much later proves there was a resurrection before the thousand years and there would be another one after the thousand years. The words give us everything we need and those words prove Amil wrong. Two judgments and two resurrections cannot be denied here
          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

          Comment


          • Re: My coming is like Noah's day.

            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
            So you think the thrones are there, and are sat on and judgment is given to these ones BUT no judging happens? That's not believable. All of that is done to actually commence a judgment and since dead people are said to live means a resurrection took place and that means a judgment took place. The fact that the rest of the dead "lived not" meaning were resurrected not until much later proves there was a resurrection before the thousand years and there would be another one after the thousand years. The words give us everything we need and those words prove Amil wrong. Two judgments and two resurrections cannot be denied here
            Yes it is believable the same chapter revelation 20 mentions that the ones on the throne in verse four are given authority to judge but no judgement is mentioned. Then later in verses 11-12 in the very same chapter mentions a throne and judgement so there is a difference

            In the verses below you will once again see that the judgement and rewarding happens at the same time

            Revelation 11:16-18
            16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

            “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
            the One who is and who was,
            because you have taken your great power
            and have begun to reign.
            18 The nations were angry,
            and your wrath has come.
            The time has come for judging the dead,
            and for rewarding your servants the prophets
            and your people who revere your name,
            both great and small—
            and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

            So it seems that you assume something that isn’t stated in one verse but deny what the many other verses actually say

            Comment


            • Re: My coming is like Noah's day.

              Originally posted by Deade View Post
              No, believers will not be caught off guard. 1 Thess. 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."



              No pre-trib rapture. God is perfectly able to protect any group while pouring out His wrath. He is God, He can do anything!
              you can't disagree with both, unless you are offering a third option. Perhaps I was confusing. A) means that the day of Jesus Coming "as a thief" is overtaking both sinners and saints. The saints see Jesus coming as a Redemer, the sinners experience this day as Jesus stealing the redeemed out of the world. So the saints are very aware of what is occurring on that day, and are caught, rather, in the air. These two things happen at the same time. Saints caught up, sinners caught in the wrath.
              As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

              Comment


              • Re: My coming is like Noah's day.

                Originally posted by marty fox View Post
                Yes it is believable the same chapter revelation 20 mentions that the ones on the throne in verse four are given authority to judge but no judgement is mentioned.
                The results of the judgment is given so a judgment did happen.


                In the verses below you will once again see that the judgement and rewarding happens at the same time
                Of course it happens at the same time the judgment is a reward. For the unsaved, their judgment is punishment. The judgment for reward happens before the thousand years, the judgment for punishment happens after it.




                Revelation 11:16-18
                16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

                “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
                the One who is and who was,
                because you have taken your great power
                and have begun to reign.
                18 The nations were angry,
                and your wrath has come.
                The time has come for judging the dead,
                and for rewarding your servants the prophets

                and your people who revere your name,
                both great and small—
                and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

                "The time has come for judging the dead,
                and for rewarding your servants the prophets" This is about the saved, the dead and those who are alive and remain...the saved Christians. Only the end of the verse is about the unsaved and that isn't a throne judgment but Christ killing his enemies as we see in Rev 19.


                So it seems that you assume something that isn’t stated in one verse but deny what the many other verses actually say
                The verses say what I have said since I am only repeating what they say. It is you who denies the two days of judgment and resurrection despite them being written clearly in black and white.

                Originally posted by marty fox View Post
                Yes it is believable the same chapter revelation 20 mentions that the ones on the throne in verse four are given authority to judge but no judgement is mentioned.
                The results of the judgment is given so a judgment did happen.


                In the verses below you will once again see that the judgement and rewarding happens at the same time
                Of course it happens at the same time the judgment is a reward. For the unsaved, their judgment is punishment. The judgment for reward happens before the thousand years, the judgment for punishment happens after it.




                Revelation 11:16-18
                16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

                “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
                the One who is and who was,
                because you have taken your great power
                and have begun to reign.
                18 The nations were angry,
                and your wrath has come.
                The time has come for judging the dead,
                and for rewarding your servants the prophets

                and your people who revere your name,
                both great and small—
                and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

                "The time has come for judging the dead,
                and for rewarding your servants the prophets" This is about the saved, the dead and those who are alive and remain...the saved Christians. Only the end of the verse is about the unsaved and that isn't a throne judgment but Christ killing his enemies as we see in Rev 19.


                So it seems that you assume something that isn’t stated in one verse but deny what the many other verses actually say
                The verses say what I have said since I am only repeating what they say. It is you who denies the two days of judgment and resurrection despite them being written clearly in black and white.
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • Re: My coming is like Noah's day.

                  Originally posted by marty fox View Post
                  Wouldn’t not being able to repent after taking the mark of the beast contradict all of the scriptures promising salvation to who ever repents like John 3:16?

                  Maybe we have to think of what the mark of th beast actually is
                  There's no forgiveness for those who took the mark of the beast (Rev 14:9-11).
                  Those that may come to faith in the Millennium are some of the born in that age.

                  Comment


                  • Re: My coming is like Noah's day.

                    Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
                    Their is nobody left to populate a future millennium if the above scriptures are to be believed.
                    How so? The mortals with the mark of the beast are doomed for destruction in the lake of fire. But while they still live in the MK, they will reproduce and bear children. Some of their children will believe and be saved, but some will not.

                    Comment


                    • Re: My coming is like Noah's day.

                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      They both say that and they match what we find in Rev 20. The dead and living Christians are judged first, the rest of the dead are judged later as per Rev 20. No passage ever says the saved and unsaved are judged at the same time and not even the same day. Scripture doesn't contradict itself so the two judgment days in Rev 20 are also reflected in other books. The first group is judged to life, the last group is judged to damnation.
                      Righto! Although, the judgment is a formality, not like when he sits on the GWTJ after the Millennium.

                      Comment


                      • Re: My coming is like Noah's day.

                        Originally posted by Deade View Post
                        No, believers will not be caught off guard. 1 Thess. 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

                        No pre-trib rapture. God is perfectly able to protect any group while pouring out His wrath. He is God, He can do anything!
                        You are right on both points.

                        Comment


                        • Re: My coming is like Noah's day.

                          Originally posted by Aijalon View Post
                          you can't disagree with both, unless you are offering a third option. Perhaps I was confusing. A) means that the day of Jesus Coming "as a thief" is overtaking both sinners and saints. The saints see Jesus coming as a Redemer, the sinners experience this day as Jesus stealing the redeemed out of the world. So the saints are very aware of what is occurring on that day, and are caught, rather, in the air. These two things happen at the same time. Saints caught up, sinners caught in the wrath.
                          If the day of the Lord takes a believer by surprise, then their faith is not genuine. When I was 10 years old, I was a member of the Boy Scout and our motto is: "Be Prepared". A genuine believer is always prepared and ready for the coming of Christ. Even though the specific day and time are unknown, he is nonetheless, ready whenever that occurs. This is what Paul is saying in 1 Thess 5:1-8.

                          Comment


                          • Re: My coming is like Noah's day.

                            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                            There's no forgiveness for those who took the mark of the beast (Rev 14:9-11).
                            Those that may come to faith in the Millennium are some of the born in that age.
                            But if that is true it contradicts the many verse in the bible that promise salvation to all who ask.

                            Now we know that the bible doesn't contradict itself so the bible is telling us that it can't be a literal mark

                            Comment


                            • Re: My coming is like Noah's day.

                              Originally posted by marty fox View Post
                              But if that is true it contradicts the many verse in the bible that promise salvation to all who ask.
                              Now we know that the bible doesn't contradict itself so the bible is telling us that it can't be a literal mark
                              Actually there is NO contradiction,. The simple point being that those who take the Mark do NOT ask.
                              In fact we are told SPECIFICALLY that they REFUSE to repent:
                              Rev 16:9* They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.*

                              Rev 16:11* and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds.

                              Now Rev 14 does NOT say there is no forgiveness as Trivalee claims but says "they will drink the wine of God's wrath..." which I think he is interpreting as meaning the LoF, however in CONTEXT I understand it to be speaking about the time of the vials.

                              Comment


                              • Re: My coming is like Noah's day.

                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                Righto! Although, the judgment is a formality, not like when he sits on the GWTJ after the Millennium.
                                I don't see a differences between the two throne judgments except in lack of details given but they are still throne judgments.

                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                Righto! Although, the judgment is a formality, not like when he sits on the GWTJ after the Millennium.
                                I don't see a differences between the two throne judgments except in lack of details given but they are still throne judgments.
                                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                                Comment

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