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  • #61
    Re: The Timing of Events

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I can't see one trump is Satan being cast out then the next trump is his angels being cast out. They are all cast out together and at the same time, in one trump...the 3rd trump looks to be a good fit, but not the 4th.
    OK, lets say that I missed and the 4th is not Satan's angels. You agree that Satan is the third trump and that woe comes to the earth when Satan is cast to earth as found in Rev 8:13 and 12:12.
    Can't we agree that these 2 chronologies, Rev 8:6 - 11:19 and Rev 12:7-14:20; cover the same period of time?
    That time being World War II coinciding with war in heaven, the defeat of Hitler/Berlin/Germany, coinciding with defeat of Satan and his angels, the Wormwood star coinciding with the fall of Satan to earth; a time of woe on earth, ending with God coming to earth in Rev 11:15-19 and Rev 14:14-20.

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: The Timing of Events

      Originally posted by randyk View Post
      False. NT theology strictly prohibits the reintroduction of temple worship. The true temple has always been in heaven, and the earthly temple always was just a temporary model of that reality.

      Rev 11 would never contradict NT theology, since the Apostle John clearly understood that the Law had been replaced with a "New Commandment." Therefore, we must recognize that Rev 11 was purely a vision, to be understood as an OT symbol of something happening in the NT era.



      I have a very different interpretation of the corresponding Scriptures. Jesus would never reveal a temple of worship, in the form of OT requirements, if He did not recognize it as a legitimate Jewish worship. Therefore, the temple mentioned in Rev 11 is purely an OT symbol representing true worship among the Jews in the NT era.

      If the Jews do restore animal worship, it of course would not be recognized by God. And I doubt if that happened the Jewish People, as a whole, would recognize it themselves. At best, it would only be the Orthodox, doing their own thing.

      The Abomination of Desolation had only two applications in history, and in the book of Daniel. None of them had anything to do with the Antichrist, nor with the Great Tribulation.

      The 1st AoD was Antiochus 4, mentioned in Dan 8 and 11. He was a forerunner of Antichrist. But never is the Antichrist said to be connected to the AoD.

      The 2nd AoD was the Roman Army, mentioned in Dan 9.26-27. Again, this had no bearing on the Antichrist, and did not indicate the Antichrist would also have an AoD.

      The Great Tribulation, according to Dan 12.1 and according to the Luke 21, began with the destruction of the Jewish temple (70 AD). And it was to continue until the end of the age. Never is the Great Tribulation called the Reign of Antichrist, although certainly, the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People continues in that time, since their "Great Tribulation" will not end until the very end of the age, when Christ returns.



      Exactly. Antichrist will not follow the Law, nor temple worship. He will be his own god. I know that Paul said Antichrist will take his seat in the temple of God. What kind of temple that will be will likely be a form of self-deification, much as Antiochus 4 did. Whereas Antiochus 4 desecrated legitimate temple worship, when the temple worship was still law, Antichrist will proclaim his deity when there is no more temple law.

      Therefore, Antichrist will not likely appear in a temple of the Jews, even if it is illegitimate. And this cannot be based on Rev 11, which speaks of legitimate Jewish worship. That temple has to be symbolic of NT worship.
      This statement, "Rev 11 would never contradict NT theology, since the Apostle John clearly understood that the Law had been replaced with a "New Commandment." Therefore, we must recognize that Rev 11 was purely a vision, to be understood as an OT symbol of something happening in the NT era."

      seems to be at odds with this statement, "I know that Paul said Antichrist will take his seat in the temple of God."

      I don't believe Rev 11 is contradicting NT theology. John is telling what will happen in the future in the same manner as Paul.
      Paul never said worshipping antichrist would be legitimate.
      John never said animal sacrifice would be legitimate.
      Same temple. Ungodly worship in both instances.


      Originally posted by randyk View Post
      While these things are not essentials of the Christian faith, I just thought you might be interested in what I believe on these matters? I'm glad we agree on some of it. I hope we're right on that much?
      Of course I am interested. I believe the coming of Jesus will be in our lifetimes. I don't want anyone to miss the signs. I want to consider everyone's ideas, because I don't want to miss the signs.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: The Timing of Events

        Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
        Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9, 15&16 is the order of the Book of Rev. after the Seals have been opened. Rev. 1 the splendor of Jesus...Rev. 2-3 the Church Age....Rev. 4-5 the Church in Heaven before the Seals are opened {Middle of the week}. So Rev. 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and even much of 19 are events that happened in the RED NUMBERED CHAPTERS. These chapters are Parenthetical Citations. Rev. 14 for instance covers the full 7 years as does Rev. 19. Rev. 14 has a soliloquy of sorts in it LIKE THIS.
        Jesus is given something in Rev 1:1 and Rev 5:7. If Jesus is all powerful and all knowing, why didn't he already have what he was given? The only time Jesus was not all powerful and all knowing was during the time of his earthly ministry. After Jesus ministry on earth, after he was slain and ascended into heaven, he was "given" what he had before he came to earth, fullness with God the Father, including the scroll. Jesus ascension into heaven has to be the picture of Rev 5:6-7. This picture is not after the church age and therefore does not fit into your theory. Can you explain?

        Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
        Jesus lands on My Zion, the Jews {144,000 or ALL THE JEWS who repented} are shown with him, this might not be truthful in the physical sense at that very moment but it is supposed to show Jesus Harvesting the Jews {Wheat} and the Beast Followers {Evil Tares} at the exact same time, thus in verses 18-20 they get the Winepress of God's Wrath, BUT, right in the middle of this set aside chapter, this Parenthetical Chapter, we get a............soliloquy..........about the Church being Raptured by Jesus on a Cloud !! Its as if the story telling was STOPPED and the story of the Churches Raptured was told, as all other players were frozen in time. So Rev. 14 is about all the Harvests, where is Rev. 11 is about the Ministry of the Two-witnesses for 1260 days plus the few days after they die.
        In your scenario, the 144,000 are not introduced until chapter 7, after the rapture. How can they then become the first fruits of the rapture in the soliloquy of chapter 14?

        How is it that Jesus is shown on Mt Zion (Rev 14:1) before he comes with the clouds (Rev 14:14), unless the Mt Zion mentioned is in heaven?
        The 2 witnesses rise from the dead and ascend into heaven. Why wouldn't they be considered first fruits? Aren't they part of the same harvest?

        Can we agree that hail is the cause of the winepress? Hail squeezes the blood out of mankind as juice is squeezed from grapes.
        This same plague is found in 11:19 after the rise of the 2 witnesses, in 14:20 after the 144,000 rise into heaven, as the last plague of a group called last plagues in 16:21, and as the sword of God in 19:15 and 21. Aren't all of these the same picture of the end of mankind ruling earth and the beginning of God ruling earth?

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: The Timing of Events

          Originally posted by 6paths View Post
          Isn't it easier to believe that the first fruits of the harvest are pictured in chronological order?
          The harvesting is shown in the last part of the chapter. The first part shows after the harvesting is over. Isn't that the easiest?



          Isn't it easier to believe that God's harvest follows the gathering of the first fruits in Rev 14:16.

          Harvesting or gathering is the same thing. The chapter begins after those things are finished, and ends with the actual harvesting/gathering.


          These are not called first fruits because they are not first fruits, they are God's harvest, those who belong to God.

          The first harvest is the harvest of the first fruits...that's why it's done first.

          This is the only place in the book of Revelation that pictures 1 Thes 4:13-17, where the dead and the living are caught up to be with Jesus in the clouds.
          The dead are not raptured. Only the living are raptured.
          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: The Timing of Events

            Originally posted by 6paths View Post
            OK, lets say that I missed and the 4th is not Satan's angels. You agree that Satan is the third trump and that woe comes to the earth when Satan is cast to earth as found in Rev 8:13 and 12:12.
            I believe Rev 8:10 and Rev 12:12 are the same events.

            Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

            Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


            Can't we agree that these 2 chronologies, Rev 8:6 - 11:19 and Rev 12:7-14:20; cover the same period of time?
            Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
            Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

            Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
            Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.


            None of these are the same period of time. A couple are close but the last two are very far apart.


            That time being World War II coinciding with war in heaven, the defeat of Hitler/Berlin/Germany, coinciding with defeat of Satan and his angels, the Wormwood star coinciding with the fall of Satan to earth; a time of woe on earth, ending with God coming to earth in Rev 11:15-19 and Rev 14:14-20.
            I wouldn't be able to say anything in WW2 had anything to do with those various scriptures.
            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: The Timing of Events

              Originally posted by 6paths View Post
              This statement, "Rev 11 would never contradict NT theology, since the Apostle John clearly understood that the Law had been replaced with a "New Commandment." Therefore, we must recognize that Rev 11 was purely a vision, to be understood as an OT symbol of something happening in the NT era."

              seems to be at odds with this statement, "I know that Paul said Antichrist will take his seat in the temple of God."
              There is no contradiction.
              Rev 11 utilizes an outdated OT symbol to depict NT worship, perhaps among the Jewish People.
              Antichrist sits in a temple that will, of course, not be a legitimate house of worship, nor is it likely to be an OT-style temple, since the Jewish People will not countenance an abomination committed against a Jewish temple.

              My thought is that as Antiochus 4 committed sacrilege against the Jewish temple, so Antichrist will construct his own temple of worship to desecrate true NT worship.

              Originally posted by 6paths
              I don't believe Rev 11 is contradicting NT theology. John is telling what will happen in the future in the same manner as Paul.
              Paul never said worshipping antichrist would be legitimate.
              John never said animal sacrifice would be legitimate.
              Same temple. Ungodly worship in both instances.
              The problem is, Rev 11 is about *true worship*--not OT worship that is outdated, nor Antichristian worship that is illegitimate.

              Originally posted by 6paths
              Of course I am interested. I believe the coming of Jesus will be in our lifetimes. I don't want anyone to miss the signs. I want to consider everyone's ideas, because I don't want to miss the signs.
              The biggest sign is, I believe, in your own heart. As you pursue the righteousness of God, and His Kingdom, you will most likely naturally find yourself being aware of what's going on around you, prophetically. And we can keep each other abreast of what we see. This forum is perhaps a good place to stay aware?

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: The Timing of Events

                Originally posted by Keraz View Post
                I also, and so does Jesus; strongly disagrees with the idea that there are two peoples of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, +

                But regarding the OP, here is a sequence of prophesied events that I believe will happen within the next 20 years:
                What WILL happen:
                The enemies of the Lord gather - Micah 4:11-12, Ezekiel 36:2
                They conspire to attack Israel - Psalms 83:1-8, Isaiah 21:2
                They prepare their weapons - Psalms 7:12, Ezekiel 7:14 [This is the situation today]

                At the moment of attack, God will use His Creation, the sun to send fire - Deuteronomy 32:22 & 34-43, Isaiah 30:26 & 30, Psalms 11:4-6, Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7, Amos 1:1-15 & 2:1-5, , Psalms 50:1-3, Zephaniah 3:8, Revelation 6:12-17
                The sun will explode with an extremely bright flash and the moon will reflect bright red - Isaiah 30:26, Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20, Habakkuk 3:4-5
                The Lord will make their weapons recoil upon themselves, the EMP hit will cause them to explode - Psalms 7:13-16, Joel 3:4, Obadiah 15
                Then the sun, moon and stars will be obscured by the approaching Coronal Mass Ejection - Psalms 18:11-12, Isaiah 13:9-13, Ezekiel 32:7-8, Amos 8:9
                A huge superhot mass of hydrogen plasma approaches the earth Joel 1:15-20, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 1:14-18
                Everyone on earth will be shocked and terrified - Jeremiah 6:24-26, Ezekiel 21:5-7a, Isaiah 13:6-8, Revelation 6:15-17
                The atmosphere will be pushed aside Revelation 6:14, 2 Peter 3:10, Isaiah 34:4
                The whole earth will be enveloped by fire - Isaiah 66:15, Zeph. 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7
                Only a remnant will survive in the Holy Land - Zechariah 13:8-9, Isaiah 6:11-13
                He will punish the nations, the wicked will die - Isaiah 63:1-6, Habakkuk 3:12, Revelation 14 18-20, Isaiah 66:17, Isaiah 29:20-21, Hebrews 10:27
                His enemies will become ashes - Malachi 4:3, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 49:2, Matthew 3:12b
                Millions will die around the world - Psalms 97:3-5, Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 13:12
                The Lord will protect those who call to Him - Isaiah 43:2, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
                But most people will take shelter until it passes. Isaiah 2:19, Revelation 6:15
                Everything described to this point is in order. The enemies of God come together to destroy Israel, then God pours out his wrath upon them.
                I just don't understand why you have the enemies of God coming together a second time in the passages you list below.
                Doesn't the book of Daniel call for 1 more time in the future when the enemies of God gather against Israel and not 2?
                When God has poured out his wrath, his kingdom is established on earth according to my understanding.

                Originally posted by Keraz View Post
                The survivors form a One World Govt. - Daniel 7:23-24, Revelation 17:12
                The Holy Land will be regenerated - Ezekiel 36:8, Joel 2:21-24, Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15, Jeremiah 33:12-14
                And the Lord's righteous people will gather there. - Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 7:9-14
                They will become the new nation of Beulah - Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 36:3-38, Jer. 31
                They will build a new Temple Zechariah 6:15, Haggai 2:9, Ezekiel 40 to 48
                The attack by a Northern army will be won by the Lord Ezekiel 38:22, Joel 2:20
                The leaders of Beulah will sign a 7 year peace treaty with the leader of the O.W.G. Daniel 9:27, Isaiah 28:15
                At the mid point he will break it and conquer Beulah -Daniel 9:27, Zechariah 14:1-2
                This commences the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation - Rev 8:2
                Those who kept their faith in God will be taken to a safe place on earth. Daniel 11:32b, Revelation 12:14
                3.5 years later, Jesus will Return for His Millennial reign - Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-4
                The Lord has told us His plans and He will not relent or change them - Jeremiah 4:28

                There are plenty more prophesies and details to prove this scenario.

                Believe it or not; up to everyone to decide! Psalms 19:11-12, Isaiah 48:6

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: The Timing of Events

                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  The harvesting is shown in the last part of the chapter. The first part shows after the harvesting is over. Isn't that the easiest?


                  How is it easier to think that this chapter is told in the reverse order of actual happenings?


                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  Harvesting or gathering is the same thing. The chapter begins after those things are finished, and ends with the actual harvesting/gathering.
                  I agree that harvesting or gathering is the same thing.



                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  The first harvest is the harvest of the first fruits...that's why it's done first.
                  This is a matter of semantics. You see 2 harvests, where I see 1 harvest consisting of 2 parts.

                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  The dead are not raptured. Only the living are raptured.
                  1 Thes 4:14-17 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
                  15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
                  16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
                  17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

                  Those who are "caught up" are "raptured."
                  You believe those which are alive and remain are raptured. I agree.
                  However, those who are alive will be "caught up together" with the dead who are raised from their graves.
                  Do you disagree with this? Both the once dead and the living are caught up together aren't they?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: The Timing of Events

                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                    I believe Rev 8:10 and Rev 12:12 are the same events.

                    Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

                    Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
                    We have agreement on this.


                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                    Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
                    Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

                    Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
                    Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.


                    None of these are the same period of time. A couple are close but the last two are very far apart.
                    The hail of Rev 11:19 is the wine press of Rev 14:20. The 7th bowl is the most descriptive ending of the 6 chronologies.

                    Rev 16:17-21 "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
                    18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
                    19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
                    20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
                    21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

                    The earthquake is associated with the voices and thunders and lightnings which is the throne of God - the Father. This earthquake is described as the one that removes the islands and mountains.
                    Hail is the winepress of God - the Son.
                    Hail is what comes on the last day or great day of the wrath of the Lamb in Rev 6:16-17.
                    Only the voices, thunders, lightnings and earthquake associated with God the Father are mentioned in Rev 8:5.
                    In sequence, hail follows the voices, thunders, lightnings and earthquake in Rev 11:19.
                    After Jesus is seen coming on a cloud, "the great winepress of the wrath of God" is poured out in Rev 14:19.
                    In the 7th bowl, the removal of the mountains and islands is associated with the great earthquake following the voices, thunders, and lightnings.
                    In the 7th bowl, the "cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath" is associated with verse 21, "And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." Jesus is not mentioned in this section, but he is in the next, Rev 19:15
                    "he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." He is Jesus that treads the winepress, using hail as shown in the 7th bowl.

                    To me, these are all too similar, including Rev 11:19 and Rev 14:20, to be descriptions of different events.



                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                    I wouldn't be able to say anything in WW2 had anything to do with those various scriptures.
                    I can't say for a certainty that WW2 had anything to do with them either. However if Wormwood is Chernobyl, then WW2 is the likeliest interpretation.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: The Timing of Events

                      Originally posted by randyk View Post
                      There is no contradiction.
                      Rev 11 utilizes an outdated OT symbol to depict NT worship, perhaps among the Jewish People.
                      Antichrist sits in a temple that will, of course, not be a legitimate house of worship, nor is it likely to be an OT-style temple, since the Jewish People will not countenance an abomination committed against a Jewish temple.

                      My thought is that as Antiochus 4 committed sacrilege against the Jewish temple, so Antichrist will construct his own temple of worship to desecrate true NT worship.



                      The problem is, Rev 11 is about *true worship*--not OT worship that is outdated, nor Antichristian worship that is illegitimate.



                      The biggest sign is, I believe, in your own heart. As you pursue the righteousness of God, and His Kingdom, you will most likely naturally find yourself being aware of what's going on around you, prophetically. And we can keep each other abreast of what we see. This forum is perhaps a good place to stay aware?
                      What are your reasons for believing Rev 11 must be "true worship" and not like the worship of Israel found in Romans 10:1-2?
                      "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
                      2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."

                      I believe Israel will have zeal for God in Rev 11, which will cause them to build the temple. They will build the temple because they are without the knowledge of faith in Jesus.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: The Timing of Events

                        Originally posted by 6paths View Post
                        How is it easier to think that this chapter is told in the reverse order of actual happenings?
                        It's pretty common for Rev to be non-chronological.


                        This is a matter of semantics. You see 2 harvests, where I see 1 harvest consisting of 2 parts.
                        It's two very different harvests by two different harvesters:

                        Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

                        Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.






                        However, those who are alive will be "caught up together" with the dead who are raised from their graves.
                        Do you disagree with this?
                        Yes because the dead in Christ resurrect in heaven and follow Christ as he leaves heaven to meet the raptured living saints. Being "caught up together" is the end result not that the dead and living were both together on the Earth and raptured up.
                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: The Timing of Events

                          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                          It's pretty common for Rev to be non-chronological.
                          To me, all of the individual stories that end with the return of God are in chronological order.
                          Chapters 6-19 contain 6 chronological stories. We just disagree on this point.

                          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                          It's two very different harvests by two different harvesters:

                          Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

                          Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
                          I agree that Rev 14:15 and Rev 14:18 are 2 different harvests.

                          I thought you were talking about the first fruits of Rev 14:1-5 being a separate harvest from Rev 14:14-16. To me, this is 1 harvest consisting of the first fruits and then the rest of the harvest.
                          Are there any biblical harvests where the full harvest is mentioned before the first fruits?






                          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                          Yes because the dead in Christ resurrect in heaven and follow Christ as he leaves heaven to meet the raptured living saints. Being "caught up together" is the end result not that the dead and living were both together on the Earth and raptured up.
                          I am not sure what resurrecting in heaven looks like. The body is in the grave in the earth, then what?

                          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                          It's pretty common for Rev to be non-chronological.
                          To me, all of the individual stories that end with the return of God are in chronological order.
                          Chapters 6-19 contain 6 chronological stories. We just disagree on this point.

                          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                          It's two very different harvests by two different harvesters:

                          Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

                          Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
                          I agree that Rev 14:15 and Rev 14:18 are 2 different harvests.

                          I thought you were talking about the first fruits of Rev 14:1-5 being a separate harvest from Rev 14:14-16. To me, this is 1 harvest consisting of the first fruits and then the rest of the harvest.
                          Are there any biblical harvests where the full harvest is mentioned before the first fruits?






                          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                          Yes because the dead in Christ resurrect in heaven and follow Christ as he leaves heaven to meet the raptured living saints. Being "caught up together" is the end result not that the dead and living were both together on the Earth and raptured up.
                          I am not sure what resurrecting in heaven looks like. The body is in the grave in the earth, then what?

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: The Timing of Events

                            Originally posted by 6paths View Post
                            Jesus is given something in Rev 1:1 and Rev 5:7. If Jesus is all powerful and all knowing, why didn't he already have what he was given? The only time Jesus was not all powerful and all knowing was during the time of his earthly ministry. After Jesus ministry on earth, after he was slain and ascended into heaven, he was "given" what he had before he came to earth, fullness with God the Father, including the scroll. Jesus ascension into heaven has to be the picture of Rev 5:6-7. This picture is not after the church age and therefore does not fit into your theory. Can you explain?
                            July 14 was my birthday, so I must have mistakenly overlooked this, sorry.

                            Jesus was and is always God, as he stated, he could have called down a legion of Angels a any time, this he could have spoken anything he wanted, but he wanted the Father's will to be done on earth. So, being a human without sin, meant he was still God. He had no sein flesh like we do. To be hnes don't even get your point here, please clarify.

                            In your scenario, the 144,000 are not introduced until chapter 7, after the rapture. How can they then become the first fruits of the rapture in the soliloquy of chapter 14?

                            How is it that Jesus is shown on Mt Zion (Rev 14:1) before he comes with the clouds (Rev 14:14), unless the Mt Zion mentioned is in heaven?
                            The 2 witnesses rise from the dead and ascend into heaven. Why wouldn't they be considered first fruits? Aren't they part of the same harvest?

                            Can we agree that hail is the cause of the winepress? Hail squeezes the blood out of mankind as juice is squeezed from grapes.
                            This same plague is found in 11:19 after the rise of the 2 witnesses, in 14:20 after the 144,000 rise into heaven, as the last plague of a group called last plagues in 16:21, and as the sword of God in 19:15 and 21. Aren't all of these the same picture of the end of mankind ruling earth and the beginning of God ruling earth?
                            The Jews were the First-fruits. When Jesus returns the 144,000 AND all the Dead Jewish Saints like Daniel, Jeremiah Joshua etc. etc. will be raise, and thus they were indeed the first-fruits. As per 14:14, I explained it, do you know what a soliloquy is ? God doesn't have to do things the way man sees the, He does things they way He wants to, he gives John a chapter about the Harvest of mankind, the main part of that Harvest happens at the Second Coming, the book of Revelation is about judgment, the heat and the Tares grow together until the end, most if not all of the Bible is about the Jews, even the Christian portion was via the 12/13 disciples.

                            So we get the End Time Harvest of the Wheat {vs. 1} and Tares {vs. 18-20} and in the middle of the chapter we are told about the Church being Raptured, who RETURNED with Christ on White Horses. Its just their style of writing, or the way God's prose went. But I can understand it, so it can't be that difficult.

                            Jesus is the cause of the Winepress, he SPEAKS VICTORY.....Daniel 2 says the Rock hewn out of the Mountain SMASHES the Statue in the feet. So Jesus speaks victory, thus he defeats Satan/Anti-Christ/Minions WITHOUT HANDS.

                            OK, lets say that I missed and the 4th is not Satan's angels. You agree that Satan is the third trump and that woe comes to the earth when Satan is cast to earth as found in Rev 8:13 and 12:12.
                            Can't we agree that these 2 chronologies, Rev 8:6 - 11:19 and Rev 12:7-14:20; cover the same period of time?
                            That time being World War II coinciding with war in heaven, the defeat of Hitler/Berlin/Germany, coinciding with defeat of Satan and his angels, the Wormwood star coinciding with the fall of Satan to earth; a time of woe on earth, ending with God coming to earth in Rev 11:15-19 and Rev 14:14-20.
                            Satan is cast down at the 6th Seal.

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                            • #74
                              Re: The Timing of Events

                              Originally posted by 6paths View Post
                              Everything described to this point is in order. The enemies of God come together to destroy Israel, then God pours out his wrath upon them.
                              I just don't understand why you have the enemies of God coming together a second time in the passages you list below.
                              Doesn't the book of Daniel call for 1 more time in the future when the enemies of God gather against Israel and not 2?
                              When God has poured out his wrath, his kingdom is established on earth according to my understanding.
                              The Jewish State of Israel, as we see it today, is not the Israel of God.
                              God is about to judge and punish the current inhabitants of the holy Land. Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, +
                              THEN: the real Israelites can migrate there and live as God always wanted His people to be. Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

                              A few years later what Daniel 9:27 and 11:32, Revelation 12:6-17 + prophesied, will take place and soon after that; Jesus will Return for His Millennium reign.

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                              • #75
                                Re: The Timing of Events

                                Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
                                Satan is cast down at the 6th Seal.
                                This statement is plainly wrong, as it conflicts with Revelation 12:6-17 that occurs just 1260 days before Jesus Returns.

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