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  • Re: Daniel

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    If the temple of God can now mean the body of Christ, IOW the church, and if the text said...Rise, and measure the church, and the altar, and them that worship therein....you would then take the church and them that worship therein, to not be referring to the same thing? Obviously the body of Christ is not a building. When a building is also called a church though, there are thousands of such buildings throughout the world, thus not just one where the entire body of Christ gathers together at. The point I'm making here, if we substitute church for the temple of God, in the example above, church can't be meaning in a literal sense in this case, as in a literal building.
    Did you happen to read the other part of my post, the part where I'd said Paul never uses the definite article ("THE") when referring to US (/the Church which is His body) as "temple"?

    Comment


    • Re: Daniel

      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
      Are you saying this sentence means EVERYONE at the GWT judgement gets thrown into the lake of fire :
      Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

      I see the implication that in fact some are written in the book.
      Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

      The first thing I notice is this....and the books were opened. That appears to be connected with this....and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

      and another book was opened, which is the book of life

      what I am then thinking, what's written in the book of life is not included with the books that they are being judged according to what is written in them. So that might mean the book of life is a record book of all names that have already received eternal life at the 2nd coming. And since I tend to think the GWTJ only involves the judging of the lost, for God to be fair, He would need to check whether or not their names can be found in the book of life. And when they are not found within, they are cast into the LOF instead.

      No matter how you look at it, the last trump precedes the GWTJ. 1 Cor 15 already indicates saints put on immortality at the last trump, in the twinkling of an eye. Why would saints need to once again put on immortality at the GWTJ as well?

      Comment


      • Re: Daniel

        Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
        Did you happen to read the other part of my post, the part where I'd said Paul never uses the definite article ("THE") when referring to US (/the Church which is His body) as "temple"?
        Yes I read that but failed to see your point. Perhaps you can try explaining it another way?

        Comment


        • Re: Daniel

          ...............

          Sorry, my post I attempted has not shown up ^ LOL

          Comment


          • Re: Daniel

            Consider this post I made awhile back (somewhat related):


            [quoting]

            Consider the following, I've posted before (ignore the middle section [...<snipped>...], as it pertained to the topic of the different thread where I'd first posted this)


            Hebrews 9:8-9 says (in part):


            "8 By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest, the first tabernacle still having a standing [stasin - G4714 (stasis--' from the base of histemi' and related to the words 'apo stasia' [a standing away (from a previous standing)])], 9 which is a symbol ['parable'] for the present time, [...]"

            (see also vv.11-12,14,15,23,24,25-28; 10:1-10, esp v.2, vv.12-23; and then also how the "By this" of verse 1 referring back to 7:24-28 among other verses referred back to, by v.8:1)



            meaning, a parable for the present time.



            And the context referring to the "tabernacle" (like Hebrews chpts 3-4 were talking about; see Heb3:2,4).


            [...<snip>...]

            [and]

            Wm Kelly on Hebrews 9:8-9 -


            "for the tabernacle in the wilderness is before the writer, not the temple: so we saw in Heb. 3, 4, and so it is here and throughout. This is evident in the early verses of the chapter, summed up in "these things having been thus formed" or prepared, not only the tabernacle but its furniture; which differed in some essential respects from the temple, for it [the temple] was the figure of the millennial kingdom and rest, as the tabernacle is of the resources of grace in Christ for the wilderness and its pilgrimage [i.e. "the Church which is His body" in this present age]. Hence the ark when set in the [later] temple had neither the golden pot with manna therein nor Aaron's rod that budded (2 Chronicles 5:10), which we find carefully named in verse 4. With such wisdom markedly divine was the scripture inspired in the O.T. as in the N.T."


            --William Kelly, Commentary on Hebrews 9 [source: Bible Hub; bold and underline mine; bracketed comments mine, parenthesis original]

            [end quoting that post]

            Comment


            • Re: Daniel

              Originally posted by divaD View Post
              Yes I read that but failed to see your point. Perhaps you can try explaining it another way?
              You had mentioned something like "everywhere else that Paul spoke of THE temple of God" (besides 2Th2:4)… but I'm pointing out (like [member] The Beginner has in the past) that Paul did not use the definite article ("THE") when speaking of US (the Church which is His body) as "temple"

              Does that help?

              Comment


              • Re: Daniel

                Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                Did you happen to read the other part of my post, the part where I'd said Paul never uses the definite article ("THE") when referring to US (/the Church which is His body) as "temple"?
                Per the KJV, as far as I can tell every place in the NT 'temple of God' is used, they all have a 'the' in front of it. I haven't checked a Strong's though. So are you perhaps meaning this def article is not found in the early transcripts in regards to your point about when Paul used the temple of God in his writings when meaning the church?

                Comment


                • Re: Daniel

                  Originally posted by divaD View Post
                  Per the KJV, as far as I can tell every place in the NT 'temple of God' is used, they all have a 'the' in front of it. I haven't checked a Strong's though. So are you perhaps meaning this def article is not found in the early transcripts in regards to your point about when Paul used the temple of God in his writings when meaning the church?
                  Check out the following (per the Greek):

                  --2 Thess 2:4 - https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-4.htm (note the G3588 - τὸν
                  ton ['the'] before the word 'temple' in this verse)

                  --2 Cor 6:16 (speaking of US/the Church which is His body) - https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/6-16.htm (note there is NO G3588 [or any other Grk word for "the"] before the word 'temple' in THIS verse [or in any other referring to US/the Church which is His body]… what you see here in the brackets [] in front of the word 'temple' is not reflective of what is actually in the Greek, but supplied by the editor, so to speak, for ease of reading--you can see the "G3588 'the'" word before the word 'God' though, in this verse, which is common in the way the Greek has it, for that particular word)


                  See what I mean?

                  Comment


                  • Re: Daniel

                    If you have access to an "Interlinear Greek-English NT" (and/or learn also to recognize the Grk word for 'the' [G3588]) you can see from there where it is used and where it is not used (in front of the word 'temple')… this could be of help to you.

                    I supplied "BibleHub" in the above post

                    Comment


                    • Re: Daniel

                      Originally posted by divaD View Post
                      Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

                      The first thing I notice is this....and the books were opened. That appears to be connected with this....and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

                      and another book was opened, which is the book of life

                      what I am then thinking, what's written in the book of life is not included with the books that they are being judged according to what is written in them. So that might mean the book of life is a record book of all names that have already received eternal life at the 2nd coming. And since I tend to think the GWTJ only involves the judging of the lost, for God to be fair, He would need to check whether or not their names can be found in the book of life. And when they are not found within, they are cast into the LOF instead.

                      No matter how you look at it, the last trump precedes the GWTJ. 1 Cor 15 already indicates saints put on immortality at the last trump, in the twinkling of an eye. Why would saints need to once again put on immortality at the GWTJ as well?
                      Exactly, we don't need to go through that judgement.

                      You seem to be of the opinion that all those judged at the GWT judgement get thrown into the lake at the second death. I used to believe that, but since then am expecting some mercy for some who have lived good lives in the millennium. And I'm expecting some mercy for those from this age, those who missed the rapture because they had never heard the gospel, or been a victim of abortion etc etc.

                      Maybe they don't live on as rulers, maybe they don't enter New Jerusalem, but I feel theres a place for them. The book of Enoch had interesting concepts in this regard, I must study it further.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Daniel

                        Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                        Check out the following (per the Greek):

                        --2 Thess 2:4 - https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-4.htm (note the G3588 - τὸν
                        ton ['the'] before the word 'temple' in this verse)

                        --2 Cor 6:16 (speaking of US/the Church which is His body) - https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/6-16.htm (note there is NO G3588 [or any other Grk word for "the"] before the word 'temple' in THIS verse [or in any other referring to US/the Church which is His body] what you see here in the brackets [] in front of the word 'temple' is not reflective of what is actually in the Greek, but supplied by the editor, so to speak, for ease of reading--you can see the "G3588 'the'" word before the word 'God' though, in this verse, which is common in the way the Greek has it, for that particular word)


                        See what I mean?
                        What about this verse then? https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/3-17.htm

                        That verse mentions temple of God twice. In the first clause the def article appears to be present, while in the next clause it appears to be absent. What should one make of that, per the point you are trying to make overall?

                        Comment


                        • Re: Daniel

                          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                          Exactly, we don't need to go through that judgement.

                          You seem to be of the opinion that all those judged at the GWT judgement get thrown into the lake at the second death. I used to believe that, but since then am expecting some mercy for some who have lived good lives in the millennium. And even earlier, mercy for those who missed the rapture 1000 years earlier because they had never heard the gospel, or been a victim of abortion etc etc. ALL the dead are raised then, those that never experienced the rapture 1000 years earlier, surely some of those are in the book of life.

                          Maybe they don't live on as rulers, maybe they don't enter New Jerusalem, but I feel theres a place for them. The book of Enoch had interesting concepts in this regard, I must study it further.
                          I only see two resurrections mentioned in the book of Revelation.

                          In John 5:29 I only see two resurrections there as well.

                          John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


                          The two resurrections in Rev 20...

                          1...the first resurrection

                          2...when the rest of the dead live again after the thousand years

                          The two resurrections in In John 5:29...

                          A...they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life

                          B...and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


                          Obviously those in group B can't rise with or during those in group 1. To be consistent, the same would have to be true in the following regards....Those in group A can't rise with or during those in group 2 if they already rose with and during those in group 1. And since there are only two resurrections remaining total, Group A belongs with group 1, while group B belongs with group 2.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Daniel

                            Originally posted by divaD View Post
                            I only see two resurrections mentioned in the book of Revelation.

                            In John 5:29 I only see two resurrections there as well.

                            John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


                            The two resurrections in Rev 20...

                            1...the first resurrection

                            2...when the rest of the dead live again after the thousand years

                            The two resurrections in In John 5:29...

                            A...they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life

                            B...and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


                            Obviously those in group B can't rise with or during those in group 1. To be consistent, the same would have to be true in the following regards....Those in group A can't rise with or during those in group 2 if they already rose with and during those in group 1. And since there are only two resurrections remaining total, Group A belongs with group 1, while group B belongs with group 2.
                            Well said, you do state your case logically. I will ponder over this..

                            Comment


                            • Re: Daniel

                              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                              Well said, you do state your case logically. I will ponder over this..
                              What is quite illogical, is to have people made immortal before the GWT Judgement and the Book of Life opened.
                              Do 'immortals' live alongside mortals during the Millennium? Nowhere does the Bible say that.
                              The martyrs who were killed during the GT will be brought back to life; as per Revelation 20:4, in the same way as Lazarus was and will most probably die naturally again as he did. But because their names are Written in the Book of Life, then the second death has no power over them. Revelation 20:6

                              The theory of resurrection for all the Christian dead at Jesus Return, or even worse; Christians going to heaven before the GT, is unscriptural and can never happen.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Daniel

                                well, glad it turned into a comprehensive discussion.........

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