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  • Re: Daniel

    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Kindly clarify who the "he" is from v36? It is one character, yet you seem to involve both Rome and Herod.
    Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

    IMO in order to identify the pronouns, we need to start working backwards in the text.

    Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

    Nothing in this verse helps us to identify the pronouns in verse 36.

    Daniel 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

    Nothing in this verse helps us to identify the pronouns in verse 36.

    Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

    Nothing in this verse helps us to identify the pronouns in verse 36.

    Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

    This verse is where the last pronoun mentioned prior to verse 36 can be found, therefore the person meant in this verse has to be the person meant in verse 36.

    So who is meant in verse 32 then?

    Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

    It's meaning the person meant in verse 31. So who is the person meant in verse 31?

    To make a long story short, the one meant in verse 31 is obviously this same vile person meant in verse 21, therefore the pronouns in verse 36 are referring to the vile person in verse 21.

    Comment


    • Re: Daniel

      Originally posted by Keraz View Post
      What is quite illogical, is to have people made immortal before the GWT Judgement and the Book of Life opened.
      Do 'immortals' live alongside mortals during the Millennium? Nowhere does the Bible say that.
      The martyrs who were killed during the GT will be brought back to life; as per Revelation 20:4, in the same way as Lazarus was and will most probably die naturally again as he did. But because their names are Written in the Book of Life, then the second death has no power over them. Revelation 20:6

      The theory of resurrection for all the Christian dead at Jesus Return, or even worse; Christians going to heaven before the GT, is unscriptural and can never happen.
      I believe Rev 20 follows Rev 19. The two are tied in together because Rev 19 refers to the end of the beast, and Rev 20 refers to martyrdom under the beast, an obvious reference to the final 3.5 years of persecution of the beast. This the first resurrection of the martyrs occurs at the same timing as the rapture/resurrection of the church, occurring at the end of the 3.5 year period of martyrdom under the beast.

      I therefore believe we will be raptured at the second coming at the first resurrection along with the martyrs of Rev 20:4

      Thus we rule for 1000 years after the resurrection. We rule over the nations, it's not just those martyrs but even Gentile believers of the ancient Thyatira church will be ruling over the nations : . Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

      So I definitely believe that immortals live alongside mortals during the millenium. Revelation is clear that those of the first resurrection rule over the nations during that period.

      Comment


      • Re: Daniel

        Originally posted by divaD View Post
        Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

        IMO in order to identify the pronouns, we need to start working backwards in the text.

        Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

        Nothing in this verse helps us to identify the pronouns in verse 36.

        Daniel 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

        Nothing in this verse helps us to identify the pronouns in verse 36.

        Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

        Nothing in this verse helps us to identify the pronouns in verse 36.

        Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

        This verse is where the last pronoun mentioned prior to verse 36 can be found, therefore the person meant in this verse has to be the person meant in verse 36.

        So who is meant in verse 32 then?

        Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

        It's meaning the person meant in verse 31. So who is the person meant in verse 31?

        To make a long story short, the one meant in verse 31 is obviously this same vile person meant in verse 21, therefore the pronouns in verse 36 are referring to the vile person in verse 21.
        I believe 21-35 is about Antiochus Epiphanes, the chapter obviously starts with Persia, then Alexander's Greek Empire. The two dominant pieces of his Empire after his death were the Seleucids and the Ptolemies, and their interactions until Antiochus Epiphanes are accurately and prophetically described in the interactions between the king of the North and the king of the South.

        From verse 31 to 35 we have an overlap between Antiochus / antichrist.

        Thereafter it is all about the antichrist because context is end times, ending at the resurrection. Antiochus didn't honor a god of fortresses, he honored himself and Zeus. Moab wasn't spared an invasion, Moab was always one of his provinces. So the chapter ends referring to the antichrist as king of the North. The detail no longer fitted Antiochus. The part about the abomination fits both of them, thus the prophecy transitions from ancient history to future during verses 31-35.

        Comment


        • Re: Daniel

          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
          I believe Rev 20 follows Rev 19. The two are tied in together because Rev 19 refers to the end of the beast, and Rev 20 refers to martyrdom under the beast, an obvious reference to the final 3.5 years of persecution of the beast. This the first resurrection of the martyrs occurs at the same timing as the rapture/resurrection of the church, occurring at the end of the 3.5 year period of martyrdom under the beast.

          I therefore believe we will be raptured at the second coming at the first resurrection along with the martyrs of Rev 20:4

          Thus we rule for 1000 years after the resurrection. We rule over the nations, it's not just those martyrs but even Gentile believers of the ancient Thyatira church will be ruling over the nations : . Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

          So I definitely believe that immortals live alongside mortals during the millenium. Revelation is clear that those of the first resurrection rule over the nations during that period.
          Nowhere does the Bible say the Church will be resurrected at the Return. 1 Corinthians 15:25 may seem to say it, but that makes a contradiction with Rev 20:4, a clearer, plain statement which undeniably confirms that only the martyrs of the Great Trib will be raised at Jesus' Return.
          Ruling over the nations, has no bearing over natural death.

          Re mortals during the Millennium; Isaiah 65:20 says that people will die during the Millennium. It does not say anyone will live for the whole 1000 years.

          The so called 'rapture' of 1 Thess 4:17, is just a transportation from where we are when Jesus Returns to the earth, to be with Him, Just as Matthew 24:30-31 says.
          The dreams and sci-fi notions of being 'raptured' and becoming immortal are the greatest deception of the Church and success of Satan yet.

          Comment


          • Re: Daniel

            Originally posted by Keraz View Post
            Nowhere does the Bible say the Church will be resurrected at the Return. 1 Corinthians 15:25 may seem to say it, but that makes a contradiction with Rev 20:4, a clearer, plain statement which undeniably confirms that only the martyrs of the Great Trib will be raised at Jesus' Return.
            Ruling over the nations, has no bearing over natural death.

            Re mortals during the Millennium; Isaiah 65:20 says that people will die during the Millennium. It does not say anyone will live for the whole 1000 years.

            The so called 'rapture' of 1 Thess 4:17, is just a transportation from where we are when Jesus Returns to the earth, to be with Him, Just as Matthew 24:30-31 says.
            The dreams and sci-fi notions of being 'raptured' and becoming immortal are the greatest deception of the Church and success of Satan yet.
            Obviously there are many ways to interpret or understand God's word. My understanding of these words are that there will be a resurrection/rapture at the coming of the Lord:

            1 Thess 4:15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left UNTIL THE COMING OF THE LORD will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

            As per the verse above, the resurrection occurs at the coming of the Lord, as per the verse below that event occurs on the day of the Lord, thief in the night, a day of destruction:

            Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly

            Comment


            • Re: Daniel

              Originally posted by divaD View Post
              I have a few thoughts about what you are asking, but currently I'm not finding a way to express it in writing. IOW I'm finding it difficult to try and find a way to put these things. Some things I'm better at trying to explain to someone in person, as opposed to trying to explain these same things in writing.
              Thanks for your candour. In the meantime, we must accept that a physical temple is what Paul had in mind until such time as you're able to articulate your rebuttal for all to review its merit.

              Remain blessed.

              Comment


              • Re: Daniel

                Originally posted by Keraz View Post
                Nowhere does the Bible say the Church will be resurrected at the Return. 1 Corinthians 15:25 may seem to say it, but that makes a contradiction with Rev 20:4, a clearer, plain statement which undeniably confirms that only the martyrs of the Great Trib will be raised at Jesus' Return.
                Ruling over the nations, has no bearing over natural death.

                Re mortals during the Millennium; Isaiah 65:20 says that people will die during the Millennium. It does not say anyone will live for the whole 1000 years.

                The so called 'rapture' of 1 Thess 4:17, is just a transportation from where we are when Jesus Returns to the earth, to be with Him, Just as Matthew 24:30-31 says.
                The dreams and sci-fi notions of being 'raptured' and becoming immortal are the greatest deception of the Church and success of Satan yet.

                Even in 1 Cor 15, the resurrection occurs at the second coming :

                21 For since by man came death, by man came also the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made ALIVE. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING

                My view is simply that Christians will be resurrected when Jesus comes again. This is what 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 actually state.

                His coming occurs when the beast is destroyed according to Rev 19, so the first resurrection at the end of the martyrdom by the beast occurs at the beginning of the millennium.

                Comment


                • Re: Daniel

                  Originally posted by divaD View Post
                  If the temple of God can now mean the body of Christ, IOW the church, and if the text said...Rise, and measure the church, and the altar, and them that worship therein....you would then take the church and them that worship therein, to not be referring to the same thing? Obviously the body of Christ is not a building. When a building is also called a church though, there are thousands of such buildings throughout the world, thus not just one where the entire body of Christ gathers together at. The point I'm making here, if we substitute church for the temple of God, in the example above, church can't be meaning in a literal sense in this case, as in a literal building.
                  Brother, why do you wish to force every reference to the temple of God in the NT to mean symbolic as in that of the heart? If you doubt the temple mentioned in 2 Thess 2:4, how can there ever be any doubt about the temple in Rev 11:1-2? Verse 2 says the court outside the temple should be left to the Gentiles to trample underfoot for forty-two months. How can it be about the church?

                  Comment


                  • Re: Daniel

                    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                    Are you saying this sentence means EVERYONE at the GWT judgement gets thrown into the lake of fire :
                    Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

                    I see the implication that in fact some are written in the book.
                    Rev 20:And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

                    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


                    This is my view of these passages, I'm not asking everyone to accept it.

                    1. I believe that the OT saints will rise to participate in the MK and that removes them from the dead being at the GWTJ.
                    2. In Isaiah 65:20 we learn that the sinner will die at a minimum age of 100 years in the Millennium. But there is however no mention of the death of the righteous who believe in God in that age. My conclusion, therefore, is that the faithful will live to the end of the age and since they are saved, they won't face judgment. So they, too, will be removed from the dead judged at the Throne.

                    So yes, my position is that everyone judged at the GWT will end up in the lake of fire.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Daniel

                      Originally posted by divaD View Post
                      What about this verse then? https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/3-17.htm

                      That verse mentions temple of God twice. In the first clause the def article appears to be present, while in the next clause it appears to be absent. What should one make of that, per the point you are trying to make overall?
                      1 Cor 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

                      The text pretty much defined the temple in mind, so no contest here. And I'm not sure that the prefix "the" before the word 'temple' consistently denotes a literal temple as we see in the above text. I do believe that context should instead, determine the nature of the temple referenced.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Daniel

                        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                        I believe Rev 20 follows Rev 19. The two are tied in together because Rev 19 refers to the end of the beast, and Rev 20 refers to martyrdom under the beast, an obvious reference to the final 3.5 years of persecution of the beast. This the first resurrection of the martyrs occurs at the same timing as the rapture/resurrection of the church, occurring at the end of the 3.5 year period of martyrdom under the beast.

                        I therefore believe we will be raptured at the second coming at the first resurrection along with the martyrs of Rev 20:4

                        Thus we rule for 1000 years after the resurrection. We rule over the nations, it's not just those martyrs but even Gentile believers of the ancient Thyatira church will be ruling over the nations : . Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

                        So I definitely believe that immortals live alongside mortals during the millenium. Revelation is clear that those of the first resurrection rule over the nations during that period.
                        Very true. Beats me why anyone would doubt this Biblical truth?

                        Comment


                        • Re: Daniel

                          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                          ? If you doubt the temple mentioned in 2 Thess 2:4, how can there ever be any doubt about the temple in Rev 11:1-2? Verse 2 says the court outside the temple should be left to the Gentiles to trample underfoot for forty-two months. How can it be about the church?

                          Why would I want to think the temple of God in Rev 11:1-2 is a literal brick and mortar temple? If literal, what temple would it be, where would it be located, who would be worshiping in it, and when would this be meaning? Can you answer all 4 of those questions? Currently we are in the church age. I would think Revelation 11 involves the church age.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Daniel

                            Originally posted by divaD View Post
                            Why would I want to think the temple of God in Rev 11:1-2 is a literal brick and mortar temple? If literal, what temple would it be, where would it be located, who would be worshiping in it, and when would this be meaning? Can you answer all 4 of those questions? Currently we are in the church age. I would think Revelation 11 involves the church age.
                            The problem is that you keep attacking every scripturally backed proof given to you as evidence that a brick and mortar temple will be built in the end times without providing a shred of evidence to back your alternative theory. So how can one continue to substantiate this position when you have nothing but conjecture as a rebuttal?

                            Nevertheless, I will respond to your questions as follows:

                            1. In Rev 11:1 the Apostle was asked to measure the temple of God and the altar and them that worship therein. So I ask you, is there an altar in the spiritual temple in your heart? Are there people [them that worship therein] worshipping in the temple of your heart?

                            2. Verse 2, the Apostle was asked not to measure the outer court of the temple BECUASE it has been given to the Gentiles and get this: the temple is associated with the Jerusalem as it says "the holy city shall be trodden underfoot for forty-two months! So this answers your question about the location of the temple.

                            3. Another proof that it is a physical temple is that it is linked to the 42 months of the Two Witnesses whose ministry we are told will last for 1260 days. Surely you agree that if converted to months, 1260 days is 42 months or 3.5 years? And just so you don't doubt further, in Rev 13:5 we learn that the reign of the Antichrist will last for 42 months.

                            So unless you believe that the 2Ws and the Antichrist have already come and reigned for 42 months or that the temple in Jerusalem was trampled for 42 months before its ruin in 70 AD, then you have no reason to doubt that a physical temple will be built in Jerusalem to fulfil these prophecies.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Daniel

                              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                              Even in 1 Cor 15, the resurrection occurs at the second coming :

                              21 For since by man came death, by man came also the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made ALIVE. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING

                              My view is simply that Christians will be resurrected when Jesus comes again. This is what 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 actually state.

                              His coming occurs when the beast is destroyed according to Rev 19, so the first resurrection at the end of the martyrdom by the beast occurs at the beginning of the millennium.
                              1 Corinthians 15:50-56 will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment, not before. Only then is Death done away with.

                              What Revelation 20:4-5 actually says, is that just those Christians killed during the Great Tribulation will be raised to life by Jesus at His Return....the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years is ended. Not plain enough for you? Perhaps I should underline it as well?

                              Comment


                              • Re: Daniel

                                Originally posted by Keraz View Post
                                1 Corinthians 15:50-56 will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment, not before. Only then is Death done away with.

                                What Revelation 20:4-5 actually says, is that just those Christians killed during the Great Tribulation will be raised to life by Jesus at His Return....the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years is ended. Not plain enough for you? Perhaps I should underline it as well?
                                Show us what it might look like then. Obviously when the last trump sounds, whenever that might be, there will still be people physically alive at the time, thus not even dead yet. Rev 20:11-15 indicates it is only the dead being judged there. So what about someone not even physically dead yet? How do they factor into any of this?

                                Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
                                12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
                                13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
                                14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
                                15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

                                A...the dead, small and great

                                B...the sea gave up the dead which were in it

                                C...death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them

                                There are at least 3 groups here. Which of these groups will someone who is not even physically dead yet when the last trump sounds, be standing in line with? A, B, or C?


                                BTW my Bible does not say the following...And I saw those still physically alive, plus the dead, small and great, stand before God. Nope not in the text. That would be adding to the text. So what happens to the ones still physically alive when the last trump sounds? They can't put on immortality at the GWTJ if they are not even present there, can they? The text makes it abundantly clear, only the dead are at the GWTJ being judged.

                                Comment

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