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  • Re: Daniel

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    According to Rev 19:13-21, Armageddon is the penultimate final battle between good (represented by the Lord Jesus Christ and his saints) and evil represented by the Antichrist, his False Prophet and their cohorts. It is not a war between the beast and humans as you claim. Matter of fact, the Bibles says that nobody (flesh and blood) can "fight against the beast" Rev 13:4.
    When you read Rev 13:4, keep in mind Josephus (who witnessed these events), when he said to the Jewish rebels in Jerusalem, “When almost every nation under the sun prostrate themselves before the arms of Rome will you alone make war against them?”

    Comment


    • Re: Daniel

      Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark

      Check out the following (per the Greek):

      --2 Thess 2:4 - https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-4.htm (note the G3588 - τὸν
      ton ['the'] before the word 'temple' in this verse)

      --2 Cor 6:16 (speaking of US/the Church which is His body) - https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/6-16.htm (note there is NO G3588 [or any other Grk word for "the"] before the word 'temple' in THIS verse [or in any other referring to US/the Church which is His body]… what you see here in the brackets [] in front of the word 'temple' is not reflective of what is actually in the Greek, but supplied by the editor, so to speak, for ease of reading--you can see the "G3588 'the'" word before the word 'God' though, in this verse, which is common in the way the Greek has it, for that particular word)

      See what I mean?
      Originally posted by divaD View Post
      What about this verse then? https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/3-17.htm

      That verse mentions temple of God twice. In the first clause the def article appears to be present, while in the next clause it appears to be absent. What should one make of that, per the point you are trying to make overall?
      As I mentioned, I believe verse 16 refers to us, with no definite article ('THE') with the word "temple".

      As for verse 17, I believe it is not merely repeating the same thing as v.16 (I've pointed out in past posts verses such as John 6:39-40 that many believe are simply "repeats" of the previous verse, but where I've shown they are speaking of distinct things; so here)…

      where verse 17 then is saying (as one translation has it, for example), "If any one [G5100 - tis] corrupt [G5351] the temple of God, him shall God destroy [/corrupt, G5351]; for the temple of God is holy [/set apart], and such are ye [i.e. 'set apart']." [bracketed inserts mine; the word "temple" being in the verse 2x not 3x, in the Greek (both with the definite article in this verse) - https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/3-17.htm ]. See what I mean? "and such are ye" or "which are ye" refers to the "set apart" reference (stated as fact).

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      • Re: Daniel

        Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
        As I mentioned, I believe verse 16 refers to us, with no definite article ('THE') with the word "temple".

        As for verse 17, I believe it is not merely repeating the same thing as v.16 (I've pointed out in past posts verses such as John 6:39-40 that many believe are simply "repeats" of the previous verse, but where I've shown they are speaking of distinct things; so here)…

        where verse 17 then is saying (as one translation has it, for example), "If any one [G5100 - tis] corrupt [G5351] the temple of God, him shall God destroy [/corrupt, G5351]; for the temple of God is holy [/set apart], and such are ye [i.e. 'set apart']." [bracketed inserts mine; the word "temple" being in the verse 2x not 3x, in the Greek (both with the definite article in this verse) - https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/3-17.htm ]. See what I mean? "and such are ye" or "which are ye" refers to the "set apart" reference (stated as fact).
        No unfortunately I do not see what you mean. You apparently lost me a long time ago, though I did begin thinking I was finally grasping your point until I came across verse 17 above. Now I am more confused than I was to begin with. Maybe it's the way you explain things? You're a bit hard to follow sometimes. At least for me anyway.

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        • Re: Daniel

          Originally posted by divaD View Post
          No unfortunately I do not see what you mean. You apparently lost me a long time ago, though I did begin thinking I was finally grasping your point until I came across verse 17 above. Now I am more confused than I was to begin with. Maybe it's the way you explain things? You're a bit hard to follow sometimes. At least for me anyway.
          Verse 16 is speaking of us (with no definite article 'THE' with 'temple').

          Verse 17 isn't. Other than to say, both "THE temple of God" is set apart ('holy') as are "ye [/we]" ('holy / set apart') also.

          Is that more clear?


          John 6:39-40 I'm using as an example of two verses stated together, that actually refer to DISTINCT THINGS (but which most ppl blv is merely "repeating" the SAME THING, but isn't).

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          • Re: Daniel

            Originally posted by claybevan View Post
            And when to we think the prophecies of Daniel were unsealed? I’m far from understanding but believe many older interpretations were off because understanding is difficult until the unsealing came/comes into play
            That's the way I reason it as well. I would think any unsealing couldn't have possibly occurred before Jesus' first advent. The fact Jesus mentions Daniel in the Discourse, this tends to tell me the initial unsealing of some of these things began around that time.

            Comment


            • Re: Daniel

              Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
              Verse 16 is speaking of us (with no definite article 'THE' with 'temple').

              Verse 17 isn't. Other than to say, both "THE temple of God" is set apart ('holy') as are "ye [/we]" ('holy / set apart') also.

              Is that more clear?


              John 6:39-40 I'm using as an example of two verses stated together, that actually refer to DISTINCT THINGS (but which most ppl blv is merely "repeating" the SAME THING, but isn't).
              But wasn't one of your points that "THE temple of God" with the def article always refers to a literal brick and mortar temple? There is no literal brick and mortar temple in verse 17 is there?

              Comment


              • Re: Daniel

                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                But wasn't one of your points that "THE temple of God" with the def article always refers to a literal brick and mortar temple? There is no literal brick and mortar temple in verse 17 is there?
                It depends on which context... so consider the following:

                --"the temple of God" Revelation 11:19 (I do not believe this is "brick and mortar" but is "in heaven")

                --"the temple of God" 2 Thessalonians 2:4 / Rev11:1 (I believe this corresponds with the Matt24:15-21, esp. v.15 "abomination [SINGULAR]" that I said correlates with Daniel 12:11 [SINGULAR] and its "set up [H5414]" which I elaborated on in a previous post; I blv Rev11:1's wording makes it clear that "the temple of God" and "them that worship THEREIN" are DISTINCT entities, and even has phrasing set in between these two phrases to make it abundantly clear to the reader)

                --"the temple of His body" (John 2:19-21, esp. v.21, speaking of Jesus' physical body; so not "brick and mortar" here)


                As I do not believe verses 16 and 17 are speaking of identical things (though both things being 'holy / set apart' and this is why they are mentioned and referred to in verse 17 as being 'holy/set apart'); this then prompts us to determine just which one is being referred to in this verse (v.17)

                Comment


                • Re: Daniel

                  Originally posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
                  These are all predictions of the reestablishment of Israel after the exile, and therefore mortal and physical. The heaven on earth established by Christ is spiritual and immortal.
                  Hi Bryan,

                  Which exile are you referring to? Because none of those specifics have ever occurred in history , and are therefore future.

                  I believe there is a Jerusalem above, we have rooms waiting there, this is the destiny of the saved. We will be resurrected at the second coming to eternal life with Jesus, as per the timing listed in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4/5.

                  Yet there is a simultaneous restoration of the earthly Jerusalem, where a mortal Jewish remnant will inherit the land of Israel at the end of the Jewish exile. This will usher in the Messianic age, an age of peace and prosperity and long blessed lives here on earth. This is described in multiple verses in the OT, and amills often don't give those portions of the bible sufficient attention.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Daniel

                    Oh, and of course, vv. such as 2Chron3:3... as you know

                    Comment


                    • Re: Daniel

                      ^ Oops, meant to add 2Chron3:3 niv, nlt (in those translations it has it as "the temple of God")

                      Comment


                      • Re: Daniel

                        Originally posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
                        If I might interject a point of clarity. You are correct in asking these questions, but I might point out the passage does not say there is a war of Armageddon, just that unclean spirits compelled the leaders to gather at the hill of Megiddo for war. Meaning this may just be an assembly point before the war.
                        Good thinking and very possible. The main site of the war is just outside Jerusalem and in Jerusalem. The valley of Jehosaphat, the mountains of Israel, Mount Zion, the winepress outside Jerusalem, these are all locations close to Jerusalem.

                        Joel 2:20 describes the army as so huge that it extends from the Dead Sea to the Meditteranean Sea:
                        I will drive the northern horde far from you, pushing it into a parched and barren land;
                        its eastern ranks will drown in the Dead Sea and its western ranks in the Mediterranean Sea. And its stench will go up


                        Compiling all the logic, I will show you a map in my next post of the likely easiest route for an attacking Northern Army , to reach Jerusalem. I believe the valley of Megiddo (Armageddon) will be included as a location of that army when it is destroyed at the second coming.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Daniel

                          IMG_20180526_163111.jpg

                          To Bryan. I believe that map is faithful to the various locations of that final war, faithful to Joel 2:20 and in addition the most likely strategic route for a massive attacking army from the north, traveling to Jerusalem.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Daniel

                            Originally posted by divaD View Post
                            Why would I want to think the temple of God in Rev 11:1-2 is a literal brick and mortar temple? If literal, what temple would it be, where would it be located, who would be worshiping in it, and when would this be meaning? Can you answer all 4 of those questions? Currently we are in the church age. I would think Revelation 11 involves the church age.
                            My own view is that Israel is planning to rebuild a Jewish temple exactly according to the dimensions in Ezekiel 40-42. This project will be supported by many powerful Jewish businessman in banking and media. Through their control of media and lobby system they have many churches and politicians in the USA on board with their plans to expand Israel and build the temple. It could be crowdfunded by the USA and Jewish populations, or maybe even Trump's administration will get involved in financing the project. It will be located on the temple mount, apparently the Dome of the Rock is located on the ancient Gentile area of the temple, and so will not interfere with the building plans. Orthodox Jews will worship in it. This could happen in the next ten years.

                            I personally believe the temple will be an abomination, and God will not bless the temple until it is sanctified during the next age. Apostate Israel will repent and be sanctified, and so will the temple become ready for the Messianic Age of earth: Ezekiel 43:

                            I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory. 3 The vision I saw was like the vision I had seen when he[a] came to destroy the city and like the visions I had seen by the Kebar River, and I fell facedown. 4 The glory of the Lord entered the temple through the gate facing east. 5 Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and the glory of the Lord filled the temple. While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple. 7 He said: “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet. This is where I will live among the Israelites forever. The people of Israel will never again defile my holy name
                            “For seven days you are to provide a male goat daily for a sin offering; you are also to provide a young bull and a ram from the flock, both without defect. 26 For seven days they are to make atonement for the altar and cleanse it; thus they will dedicate it. 27 At the end of these days, from the eighth day on, the priests are to present your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings on the altar. Then I will accept you, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

                            Comment


                            • Re: Daniel

                              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                              Hi Bryan,

                              Which exile are you referring to? Because none of those specifics have ever occurred in history , and are therefore future.

                              I believe there is a Jerusalem above, we have rooms waiting there, this is the destiny of the saved. We will be resurrected at the second coming to eternal life with Jesus, as per the timing listed in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4/5.

                              Yet there is a simultaneous restoration of the earthly Jerusalem, where a mortal Jewish remnant will inherit the land of Israel at the end of the Jewish exile. This will usher in the Messianic age, an age of peace and prosperity and long blessed lives here on earth. This is described in multiple verses in the OT, and amills often don't give those portions of the bible sufficient attention.
                              I will say that the description of the restoration of Israel after the Babylonian exile in OT is somewhat utopian in nature. There was (or in your view is) a heavenly Jerusalem. The rooms waiting for the faithful were (or in your view are) in God's house, or the heavenly temple. The faithful were (or in your view will be) resurrected in the second coming of Christ, the first resurrection. The remnant was (or in your view will be) called up with the gentile faithful in that second coming. A one time event.

                              The Messianic age, or millennium, is the one thousand years those faithful live serving Christ in that heavenly temple. The second resurrection is after that thousand years and heaven, as it existed before, is done away with and the heavenly Jerusalem is (or will be) established permanently on earth.

                              Prior to this major shift in how the dead were dealt with can be put simply as-- Before Christ's second coming and raising the faithful to that heavenly temple, the dead waited in the grave, as they always had. Those who were not raised at the first resurrection still died and waited in the grave. At the second resurrection, a thousand years later, all the remaining dead were to be raised and judged. After this judgment those who qualify gain access to the kingdom of heaven on earth at their death, or are destroyed.

                              These two resurrections are in spirit form, as Paul made clear in 1 Cor.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Daniel

                                Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]13777[/ATTACH]

                                To Brian. I believe that map is faithful to the various locations of that final war, faithful to Joel 2:20 and in addition the most likely strategic route for a massive attacking army from the north, traveling to Jerusalem.
                                Your map is accurate. Megiddo was at the ridge we know as Mount Carmel, thus the term "hill of Megiddo" as the root of Armageddon.

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