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  • Re: The Preterist Gap

    Originally posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    You'll love this bro.


    When Christ sent out the Gospel through the ministry of himself and of the Apostles, it lasted three or three and a half years, that it almost amounts to the calculation of Daniel, namely the 490 years. Hence he also says, Christ shall take a half a week, in which the daily offerings shall cease; that is, the priesthood and reign of the Jews shall have an end; which all took place in the three and a half years in which Christ preached, and was almost completed in four years after Christ, in which the Gospel prospered the most, especially in Palestine through the Apostles (that when they opened their mouth, the Holy Ghost fell as it were, from heaven, as we see in the Acts of the Apostles), so that a whole week, or seven years, established the covenant, as Daniel says; that is, the Gospel was preached to the Jews, of which we spoke before. Now, when the time came that a new message or sermon began, there must also begin a new kingdom, that is, where Christ rules spiritually in our hearts through the Word and faith. If this is now to continue, then the other must be set aside and has no more authority and must cease. This is the part of the prophecy of the prophets, which Christ is explaining.

    MARTIN LUTHER (Sermon on Matthew 24:15-28)
    Nice, so Martin Luther was certainly pointing towards a full historical interpretation of the 70 weeks. I would also have that view if there was a clear era-ending moment in the early church dated to late 34 AD which would complete the list in v24.

    To summarise the 2 points of view:
    1) Unbroken Timeline: A) there is no era-ending moment in 34 AD, no precise 3.5 year period following the cross. Ideas like Paul's conversion, Stephen's stoning, Cornelius' conversion, Peter's vision are neither clearly dated to late 34 AD nor are clear era-ending moments. B) The concept that the crucifixion was not for the Gentiles until Peter's vision is undermined by the cross opening the way for all. The conversion of the Ethiopian also occurred earlier. C) v24 indicates a year 490 conclusion, not 3.5 years earlier at the cross (that view is possible, but highly doubtful) D) Some of the events of v24 are not convincingly fulfilled at year 486.5 E) the timeline is unbroken which is a huge advantage. The view is not entirely convincing.

    2) A gap until the GT: A) weakness: the Israel timeline is broken when the cross interrupted the exclusive focus on Israel B) GT is precisely 3.5 years long C) the GT is a revival for Jews as per Romans 11:25, which explains the re-introduction of the timeline. D) v24 fulfillment at the second coming, prophecy stops (Zech 13) , Mt Zion anointed, Jerusalem is restored with no more national sin. E) the fulfillment satisfactorily occurs at year 490 instead of 486.5 F) Weakness: Is the GT a period of confirmation of the promised Messiah, I believe a revival among Jews is such a confirmation.

    Of the 2 , I choose the gap. Even though breaking a timeline isn't a good idea, there are good reasons for it. Martin Luther was a wise man, but not always right.

    Comment


    • Re: The Preterist Gap

      Here we are, back in the corn field.

      The problem is there is no discipline. Because we feel these things are in our future we are free to make any interpretation we want to, disregarding any rule of research. How do we test the interpretations, well, we can't, but that doesn't stop us from making interpretation anyway. They are true to us because we are true and faithful believers, and we think true and faithful believers can't get it wrong, in spite of evidence from recent history that is contrary.

      Just look at how much scripture has had its meaning altered from the original text just to force the predicted events into our future. Soon no longer means soon, 490 years no longer means 490 years, early Christianity was a smooth continuous growth, when it was anything but, the end of sacrifices no longer means the end of sacrifices, the temple no longer means the temple in Jerusalem, this generation means a future generation, now means some day far off. We talk with certainty about things we can only surmise, and often with extremely questionable facts. We flood the post with a ocean of unrelated scripture and think it is connected. All of it just for the purpose of placing these events into our future -- no other reason.

      Might I quote Rev 22:18-19. Is nothing sacred?

      Comment


      • Re: The Preterist Gap

        Originally posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
        Here we are, back in the corn field.

        The problem is there is no discipline. Because we feel these things are in our future we are free to make any interpretation we want to, disregarding any rule of research. How do we test the interpretations, well, we can't, but that doesn't stop us from making interpretation anyway. They are true to us because we are true and faithful believers, and we think true and faithful believers can't get it wrong, in spite of evidence from recent history that is contrary.

        Just look at how much scripture has had its meaning altered from the original text just to force the predicted events into our future. Soon no longer means soon, 490 years no longer means 490 years, early Christianity was a smooth continuous growth, when it was anything but, the end of sacrifices no longer means the end of sacrifices, the temple no longer means the temple in Jerusalem, this generation means a future generation, now means some day far off. We talk with certainty about things we can only surmise, and often with extremely questionable facts. We flood the post with a ocean of unrelated scripture and think it is connected. All of it just for the purpose of placing these events into our future -- no other reason.

        Might I quote Rev 22:18-19. Is nothing sacred?
        I couldn’t agree more

        Comment


        • Re: The Preterist Gap

          Daniel 9:24 futurist miss natural and common use expressions.

          Saying 70 week are determined for a,b,c,d,e,etc

          And them being fulfilled ‘within’ or as the passage phrases, ‘in the midst of’; doesn’t require the final 70th week to complete all 7 years; only that the fulfillment finished ‘within’ the final 70th week.

          Common sense shows this.

          If I say I am going to buy a car in 3 months, and I fulfill that prophecy in three months, all I am required to do to naturally and faithfully fulfil the prophecy, is to buy the car sometime in January.
          Nothing requires me to have to buy it on Jan 31, to be considered a fulfilled prophecy.

          Daniel said it would be a 70 weeks period to fulfil the items of 9:24.
          Daniel tells us that Christ would be cut off (after 62+7=69) weeks.
          Guess what?
          In a 70week prophecy, after 69 weeks means Christ was cut off ‘in the midst’ of the final 70th week.
          I have shared before, and can share again later, where the NT shows us clearly each item of 9:24 was fulfilled in Christ’s death and final confirmed new covenant in His blood for the many.

          Comment


          • Re: The Preterist Gap

            Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
            Daniel 9:24 futurist miss natural and common use expressions.

            Saying 70 week are determined for a,b,c,d,e,etc

            And them being fulfilled ‘within’ or as the passage phrases, ‘in the midst of’; doesn’t require the final 70th week to complete all 7 years; only that the fulfillment finished ‘within’ the final 70th week.

            Common sense shows this.

            If I say I am going to buy a car in 3 months, and I fulfill that prophecy in three months, all I am required to do to naturally and faithfully fulfil the prophecy, is to buy the car sometime in January.
            Nothing requires me to have to buy it on Jan 31, to be considered a fulfilled prophecy.

            Daniel said it would be a 70 weeks period to fulfil the items of 9:24.
            Daniel tells us that Christ would be cut off (after 62+7=69) weeks.
            Guess what?
            In a 70week prophecy, after 69 weeks means Christ was cut off ‘in the midst’ of the final 70th week.
            I have shared before, and can share again later, where the NT shows us clearly each item of 9:24 was fulfilled in Christ’s death and final confirmed new covenant in His blood for the many.
            Sure it's possible that this could be fulfilled within 69.5 weeks. I rather see that 70 weeks are determined for those events to occur :

            24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

            Sure it's possible that you could see those fulfillments somehow at the cross. Yet Zech 13, Ezekiel 43 show that Jerusalem will be purified, the Most Holy Anointed, and the end to prophecy at the second coming. It is more fully fulfilled at the second coming.

            Comment


            • Re: The Preterist Gap

              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
              Nice, so Martin Luther was certainly pointing towards a full historical interpretation of the 70 weeks. I would also have that view if there was a clear era-ending moment in the early church dated to late 34 AD which would complete the list in v24.

              To summarise the 2 points of view:
              1) Unbroken Timeline: A) there is no era-ending moment in 34 AD, no precise 3.5 year period following the cross. Ideas like Paul's conversion, Stephen's stoning, Cornelius' conversion, Peter's vision are neither clearly dated to late 34 AD nor are clear era-ending moments. B) The concept that the crucifixion was not for the Gentiles until Peter's vision is undermined by the cross opening the way for all. The conversion of the Ethiopian also occurred earlier. C) v24 indicates a year 490 conclusion, not 3.5 years earlier at the cross (that view is possible, but highly doubtful) D) Some of the events of v24 are not convincingly fulfilled at year 486.5 E) the timeline is unbroken which is a huge advantage. The view is not entirely convincing.

              2) A gap until the GT: A) weakness: the Israel timeline is broken when the cross interrupted the exclusive focus on Israel B) GT is precisely 3.5 years long C) the GT is a revival for Jews as per Romans 11:25, which explains the re-introduction of the timeline. D) v24 fulfillment at the second coming, prophecy stops (Zech 13) , Mt Zion anointed, Jerusalem is restored with no more national sin. E) the fulfillment satisfactorily occurs at year 490 instead of 486.5 F) Weakness: Is the GT a period of confirmation of the promised Messiah, I believe a revival among Jews is such a confirmation.

              Of the 2 , I choose the gap. Even though breaking a timeline isn't a good idea, there are good reasons for it. Martin Luther was a wise man, but not always right.
              DurbanDude, verse 27 alone undeniably proves there has to be a gap in the 70 weeks. That entire verse involves the 70th week. Some are in denial of that. If there are no gaps in the 70 weeks, such as some are insisting, the part after the middle of the week then needs to be fulfilled within 3.5 years of Christ's death if Christ is supposed to be meant in that verse. So verse 27 alone undeniably debunks that there are no gaps in the 70 weeks. So my point is, it doesn't matter about any pros or cons to each view, as you showed above, verse 27 alone already proves there has to be a gap in the 70 weeks. The way some try and get around this though, they wrongly claim only some of verse 27 involves the 70th week, while some of it involves a time post the conclusion of the 70 weeks. That is not a valid argument though.

              Comment


              • Re: The Preterist Gap

                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                Maybe you need to get a calculator then and check how much 70x7 equals. It doesn't equal 486.5 that's for certain. That aside, let me ask you this then.

                Jeremiah 25:12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

                Do you reason this unrelated example the same way? Do you think it can mean less than 70 years and still mean when seventy years are accomplished?
                Regarding the 70 years, according to the passages in Daniel 8:
                vs 11 - Refers to the daily sacrifice being taken away and explains by who it is taken away.
                vs 12 & 13 - Specifies that time period that the daily sacrifice will be taken away, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot.
                vs 14 - Gives the time trodden under foot and to be cleansed, to be two thousand and three hundred days (6.39 years). This is similar to the 42 months in Revelation 13:5.
                vs 19 - Specifies it to be in the last end.

                The whole last 7 years of the 70 years must be at the end of time, being all lumped as one period, with no gaps as specified by Gabriel to be two thousand and three hundred days in the last end.


                Daniel 8:
                11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
                12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
                13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
                14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


                19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

                Comment


                • Re: The Preterist Gap

                  Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                  Regarding the 70 years, according to the passages in Daniel 8:
                  vs 11 - Refers to the daily sacrifice being taken away and explains by who it is taken away.
                  vs 12 & 13 - Specifies that time period that the daily sacrifice will be taken away, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot.
                  vs 14 - Gives the time trodden under foot and to be cleansed, to be two thousand and three hundred days (6.39 years). This is similar to the 42 months in Revelation 13:5.
                  vs 19 - Specifies it to be in the last end.

                  The whole last 7 years of the 70 years must be at the end of time, being all lumped as one period, with no gaps as specified by Gabriel to be two thousand and three hundred days in the last end.


                  Daniel 8:
                  11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
                  12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
                  13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
                  14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


                  19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
                  You are correct to connect some of Daniel 8 to some of these things, so I think we are on the same page there. And I do fully agree that there are no gaps in the last 7 years of the 70 weeks. It looks like we are on the same page there as well.

                  Comment


                  • Re: The Preterist Gap

                    Originally posted by divaD View Post
                    DurbanDude, verse 27 alone undeniably proves there has to be a gap in the 70 weeks. That entire verse involves the 70th week. Some are in denial of that. If there are no gaps in the 70 weeks, such as some are insisting, the part after the middle of the week then needs to be fulfilled within 3.5 years of Christ's death if Christ is supposed to be meant in that verse. So verse 27 alone undeniably debunks that there are no gaps in the 70 weeks. So my point is, it doesn't matter about any pros or cons to each view, as you showed above, verse 27 alone already proves there has to be a gap in the 70 weeks. The way some try and get around this though, they wrongly claim only some of verse 27 involves the 70th week, while some of it involves a time post the conclusion of the 70 weeks. That is not a valid argument though.
                    True, this part also has to occur, which didn't occur back then :

                    And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

                    I should have included that part in my analysis, the abomination is an end times event, associated in Daniel 12 with the final 3.5 years before the resurrection of Dan 12. Even Jesus associates the abomination just prior to the second coming.

                    Comment


                    • Re: The Preterist Gap

                      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                      True, this part also has to occur, which didn't occur back then :

                      And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

                      I should have included that part in my analysis, the abomination is an end times event, associated in Daniel 12 with the final 3.5 years before the resurrection of Dan 12. Even Jesus associates the abomination just prior to the second coming.
                      But don't some take that part in verse 27 to have been fulfilled during 70 AD? I suspect what initially messed some minds up concerning these things, is all these past Commentators that folks have been reading and relying on for understanding of some of these things. Yet there is always the chance that these past Commentators were wrong about some of these things, the same way anyone can be wrong about some of these things today.

                      Comment


                      • Re: The Preterist Gap

                        Originally posted by divaD View Post
                        You are correct to connect some of Daniel 8 to some of these things, so I think we are on the same page there. And I do fully agree that there are no gaps in the last 7 years of the 70 weeks. It looks like we are on the same page there as well.
                        Vs. 26 - I have always considered the Messiah being cut off as the time Christ was crucified. I may need to rethink this. Perhaps its not referring to Christ Crucified, but rather in the end of time, the preaching of Christ by the two witnesses then being killed? This could be considered Messiah being cut off. This is their mission, to preach to the blinded Jews to convert them to Christ.
                        Vs. 27 - It was in "the midst of the week" when he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

                        Daniel 9:
                        26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
                        27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

                        Any thought?

                        Comment


                        • Re: The Preterist Gap

                          Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                          Regarding the 70 years, according to the passages in Daniel 8:
                          vs 11 - Refers to the daily sacrifice being taken away and explains by who it is taken away.
                          vs 12 & 13 - Specifies that time period that the daily sacrifice will be taken away, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot.
                          vs 14 - Gives the time trodden under foot and to be cleansed, to be two thousand and three hundred days (6.39 years). This is similar to the 42 months in Revelation 13:5.
                          vs 19 - Specifies it to be in the last end.

                          The whole last 7 years of the 70 years must be at the end of time, being all lumped as one period, with no gaps as specified by Gabriel to be two thousand and three hundred days in the last end.


                          Daniel 8:
                          11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
                          12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
                          13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
                          14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


                          19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
                          In the event you might be misunderstanding some of my position, my position is that there is a gap in the 70 weeks, IOW in the 490 years. The gap would be at the end of 483 years, leaving 7 years remaining of the the 490 years. From what I can tell though, pretty much anyone who has Christ fulfilling verse 27, they all insert a gap after the middle of the week. Yet some don't see it as being a gap in the 70 weeks itself, though it clearly is, so they instead reason it that after this gap the remainder of that verse is fulfilled during a time post the completion of the 70 weeks. Most of them have it being fulfilled during the events connected with 70 AD.

                          Comment


                          • Re: The Preterist Gap

                            Originally posted by divaD View Post
                            But don't some take that part in verse 27 to have been fulfilled during 70 AD? I suspect what initially messed some minds up concerning these things, is all these past Commentators that folks have been reading and relying on for understanding of some of these things. Yet there is always the chance that these past Commentators were wrong about some of these things, the same way anyone can be wrong about some of these things today.
                            Exactly, 70AD didn't have an abomination set up in the temple for 3.5 years. Jews controlled the temple area during the Roman War, not Romans. Those Jews didn't erect any abomination there.

                            Comment


                            • Re: The Preterist Gap

                              Originally posted by divaD View Post
                              In the event you might be misunderstanding some of my position, my position is that there is a gap in the 70 weeks, IOW in the 490 years. The gap would be at the end of 483 years, leaving 7 years remaining of the the 490 years. From what I can tell though, pretty much anyone who has Christ fulfilling verse 27, they all insert a gap after the middle of the week. Yet some don't see it as being a gap in the 70 weeks itself, though it clearly is, so they instead reason it that after this gap the remainder of that verse is fulfilled during a time post the completion of the 70 weeks. Most of them have it being fulfilled during the events connected with 70 AD.
                              I am not misunderstanding you. Just offering dialog.

                              I agree the 483 years are all lumped together until Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9:25.

                              vs. 26 - shall the Messiah be cut off.
                              vs. 27 - in the mist of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease .... he shall make it desolate.

                              But going back to Daniel 8:14, specifies the period to be two thousand and three hundred days (6.39 years). If this is the time of the beast an in the last of the end, then the whole last week will be at the end of time with no gaps since vs 27 says "in the mist of the week".

                              Comment


                              • Re: The Preterist Gap

                                Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                                Vs. 26 - I have always considered the Messiah being cut off as the time Christ was crucified. I may need to rethink this. Perhaps its not referring to Christ Crucified, but rather in the end of time, the preaching of Christ by the two witnesses then being killed? This could be considered Messiah being cut off. This is their mission, to preach to the blinded Jews to convert them to Christ.
                                Vs. 27 - It was in "the midst of the week" when he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

                                Daniel 9:
                                26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
                                27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

                                Any thought?
                                You are correct to conclude what you already do about verse 26. If I were you I wouldn't try to reason it any other way than you currently are.

                                Comment

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