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  • Re: The Preterist Gap

    Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
    I am not misunderstanding you. Just offering dialog.

    I agree the 483 years are all lumped together until Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9:25.

    vs. 26 - shall the Messiah be cut off.
    vs. 27 - in the mist of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease .... he shall make it desolate.

    But going back to Daniel 8:14, specifies the period to be two thousand and three hundred days (6.39 years). If this is the time of the beast an in the last of the end, then the whole last week will be at the end of time with no gaps since vs 27 says "in the mist of the week".
    I did think you were perhaps adding to what I was saying, yet I wasn't entirely certain. But now I am since you indicated in this post that you were.

    And the interesting thing about it, 7 years involves 2520 days. So that means 2300 days can fit somewhere within those 2520 days. Unfortunately though, mainly because of what past Commentators have concluded about Dan 8, many reject the idea that some of Dan 8 involves the endtimes. Most of these folks see Dan 8 entirely fulfilled, thus already in the past. Some of that would be true about Dan 8, but not all of it though.

    Comment


    • Re: The Preterist Gap

      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
      Nice, so Martin Luther was certainly pointing towards a full historical interpretation of the 70 weeks. I would also have that view if there was a clear era-ending moment in the early church dated to late 34 AD which would complete the list in v24.

      To summarise the 2 points of view:
      1) Unbroken Timeline: A) there is no era-ending moment in 34 AD, no precise 3.5 year period following the cross. Ideas like Paul's conversion, Stephen's stoning, Cornelius' conversion, Peter's vision are neither clearly dated to late 34 AD nor are clear era-ending moments. B) The concept that the crucifixion was not for the Gentiles until Peter's vision is undermined by the cross opening the way for all. The conversion of the Ethiopian also occurred earlier. C) v24 indicates a year 490 conclusion, not 3.5 years earlier at the cross (that view is possible, but highly doubtful) D) Some of the events of v24 are not convincingly fulfilled at year 486.5 E) the timeline is unbroken which is a huge advantage. The view is not entirely convincing.

      2) A gap until the GT: A) weakness: the Israel timeline is broken when the cross interrupted the exclusive focus on Israel B) GT is precisely 3.5 years long C) the GT is a revival for Jews as per Romans 11:25, which explains the re-introduction of the timeline. D) v24 fulfillment at the second coming, prophecy stops (Zech 13) , Mt Zion anointed, Jerusalem is restored with no more national sin. E) the fulfillment satisfactorily occurs at year 490 instead of 486.5 F) Weakness: Is the GT a period of confirmation of the promised Messiah, I believe a revival among Jews is such a confirmation.

      Of the 2 , I choose the gap. Even though breaking a timeline isn't a good idea, there are good reasons for it. Martin Luther was a wise man, but not always right.
      I don't know how the 70 Weeks end for sure, but I reject the gap. I used to hold to that view, but dropped it "because it was highly doubtful" that a consecutive timeline could be broken and still be a real measure of time. Can you say that "in 70 Weeks some event will take place," and then claim this is fulfilled thousands of years later? No.

      Your argument above that the 70 Weeks couldn't have ended in the *middle of the 70th Week* because "it is highly doubtful" begs the question: Why is it highly doubtful? I don't see it as doubtful for any particular reason, particularly when there is every indication to believe that the 70th Week event occurred in the *middle of the Week.* It therefore seems *perhaps likely* to me that the 70th Week ended as a "half Week."

      To say that all 6 events in vs. 24 did *not* take place in the *middle of the Week* begs the question: Why do you say that? It appears to me "likely" that all 6 items were fulfilled *at the cross,* which of course took place in the middle of the Week.

      For example, the 6th item, the "anointing of the Most Holy," likely took place when Jesus died and established access to the temple in heaven for Christians.

      Comment


      • Re: The Preterist Gap
        "When Christ sent out the Gospel through the ministry of himself and of the Apostles, it lasted three or three and a half years, that it almost amounts to the calculation of Daniel, namely the 490 years. Hence he also says, Christ shall take a half a week, in which the daily offerings shall cease; that is, the priesthood and reign of the Jews shall have an end; which all took place in the three and a half years in which Christ preached, and was almost completed in four years after Christ, in which the Gospel prospered the most, especially in Palestine through the Apostles (that when they opened their mouth, the Holy Ghost fell as it were, from heaven, as we see in the Acts of the Apostles), so that a whole week, or seven years, established the covenant, as Daniel says; that is, the Gospel was preached to the Jews, of which we spoke before. Now, when the time came that a new message or sermon began, there must also begin a new kingdom, that is, where Christ rules spiritually in our hearts through the Word and faith. If this is now to continue, then the other must be set aside and has no more authority and must cease. This is the part of the prophecy of the prophets, which Christ is explaining."

        MARTIN LUTHER (Sermon on Matthew 24:15-28)[/QUOTE]

        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
        Nice, so Martin Luther was certainly pointing towards a full historical interpretation of the 70 weeks. I would also have that view if there was a clear era-ending moment in the early church dated to late 34 AD which would complete the list in v24.

        To summarise the 2 points of view:
        1) Unbroken Timeline: A) there is no era-ending moment in 34 AD, no precise 3.5 year period following the cross. Ideas like Paul's conversion, Stephen's stoning, Cornelius' conversion, Peter's vision are neither clearly dated to late 34 AD nor are clear era-ending moments. B) The concept that the crucifixion was not for the Gentiles until Peter's vision is undermined by the cross opening the way for all. The conversion of the Ethiopian also occurred earlier. C) v24 indicates a year 490 conclusion, not 3.5 years earlier at the cross (that view is possible, but highly doubtful) D) Some of the events of v24 are not convincingly fulfilled at year 486.5 E) the timeline is unbroken which is a huge advantage. The view is not entirely convincing.

        2) A gap until the GT: A) weakness: the Israel timeline is broken when the cross interrupted the exclusive focus on Israel B) GT is precisely 3.5 years long C) the GT is a revival for Jews as per Romans 11:25, which explains the re-introduction of the timeline. D) v24 fulfillment at the second coming, prophecy stops (Zech 13) , Mt Zion anointed, Jerusalem is restored with no more national sin. E) the fulfillment satisfactorily occurs at year 490 instead of 486.5 F) Weakness: Is the GT a period of confirmation of the promised Messiah, I believe a revival among Jews is such a confirmation.

        Of the 2 , I choose the gap. Even though breaking a timeline isn't a good idea, there are good reasons for it. Martin Luther was a wise man, but not always right.
        Ill get back to your summary of the views later today. In the meanwhile lets remember that Luther, despite his faults, translated the scriptures into the German language. So, the Daniel 9 text would have been fairly well understood.
        "Your name and renown
        is the desire of our hearts."
        (Isaiah 26:8)

        Comment


        • Re: The Preterist Gap

          Originally posted by randyk View Post
          I don't know how the 70 Weeks end for sure, but I reject the gap. I used to hold to that view, but dropped it "because it was highly doubtful" that a consecutive timeline could be broken and still be a real measure of time. Can you say that "in 70 Weeks some event will take place," and then claim this is fulfilled thousands of years later? No.

          Your argument above that the 70 Weeks couldn't have ended in the *middle of the 70th Week* because "it is highly doubtful" begs the question: Why is it highly doubtful? I don't see it as doubtful for any particular reason, particularly when there is every indication to believe that the 70th Week event occurred in the *middle of the Week.* It therefore seems *perhaps likely* to me that the 70th Week ended as a "half Week."

          To say that all 6 events in vs. 24 did *not* take place in the *middle of the Week* begs the question: Why do you say that? It appears to me "likely" that all 6 items were fulfilled *at the cross,* which of course took place in the middle of the Week.

          For example, the 6th item, the "anointing of the Most Holy," likely took place when Jesus died and established access to the temple in heaven for Christians.
          In verse 24 the text indicates 70 weeks are determined, and not 69.5 weeks instead. But if I am wrong about that and you are correct instead, show in the text in verse 24 where it says 69.5 weeks rather than 70 weeks.

          Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.



          Did you perhaps miss this part in the text?...to finish. And does not the text clearly indicate that it is 70 weeks that are determined in order to finish? What is 70 x 7? Is or is it not 490?

          490 years are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

          That's how that verse needs to be understood.

          Comment


          • Re: The Preterist Gap

            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            I don't know how the 70 Weeks end for sure, but I reject the gap. I used to hold to that view, but dropped it "because it was highly doubtful" that a consecutive timeline could be broken and still be a real measure of time. Can you say that "in 70 Weeks some event will take place," and then claim this is fulfilled thousands of years later? No.
            I realize you are not addressing me but that you are addressing DD, yet I can't help but interject yet again. During any gap none of the 70 weeks are even being counted. So I don't see what the problem is then?

            Comment


            • Re: The Preterist Gap

              Originally posted by divaD View Post
              In verse 24 the text indicates 70 weeks are determined, and not 69.5 weeks instead. But if I am wrong about that and you are correct instead, show in the text in verse 24 where it says 69.5 weeks rather than 70 weeks.
              It says there will be 70 Weeks. The question regards whether the 70th Week must be a full week--not that it didn't take place. It cannot be shown that it had to be a full week, nor that it could only be a half week. What we do have is evidence that it was a half week because the main event, completing the 70 Weeks Prophecy, was said to take place in the *middle of the Week.*

              Dan 9. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

              Originally posted by divaD
              Daniel 9:24 *Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

              Did you perhaps miss this part in the text? to finish. And does not the text clearlyindicate that it is 70 weeks that are determined in order to finish? What is 70 x 7? Is or is it not 490?
              If I say a major event will take place in 10 days, must the 10th day be a full 24 hour day before the event takes place? No.

              If I say Christ will fulfill 6 items in 70 weeks, must the 70th week be a full week? We have evidence that Christ fulfilled the 6 items in the *middle* of the 70th Week.

              It seems clear to me that the major event to take place in the 70th Week was the death and resurrection of Christ. The following passages in Hebrew suggest that Christ completed the 70 Weeks Prophecy in the *middle of the 70th Week* when he died and opened access for Christians to the temple in heaven.

              This was the 6th item mentioned by Daniel in 7.24, the "anointing of the Most Holy." This was, I believe, Jesus establishing a way not into the temple on earth, but rather, into the real temple in heaven. The temple on earth stopped functioning, and the sacrifices and offerings rendered obsolete, when the veil was rent at the death of Christ.

              Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning.

              Hebrews 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

              Hebrews 9:25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.

              Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

              Hebrews 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

              Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus.

              Comment


              • Re: The Preterist Gap

                Originally posted by Cyberseeker View Post
                [INDENT]"When Christ sent out the Gospel through the ministry of himself and of the Apostles, it lasted three or three and a half years, that it almost amounts to the calculation of Daniel, namely the 490 years. Hence he also says, Christ shall take a half a week, in which the daily offerings shall cease; that is, the priesthood and reign of the Jews shall have an end; which all took place in the three and a half years in which Christ preached, and was almost completed in four years after Christ, in which the Gospel prospered the most, especially in Palestine through the Apostles (that when they opened their mouth, the Holy Ghost fell as it were, from heaven, as we see in the Acts of the Apostles), so that a whole week, or seven years, established the covenant, as Daniel says; that is, the Gospel was preached to the Jews, of which we spoke before. Now, when the time came that a new message or sermon began, there must also begin a new kingdom, that is, where Christ rules spiritually in our hearts through the Word and faith. If this is now to continue, then the other must be set aside and has no more authority and must cease. This is the part of the prophecy of the prophets, which Christ is explaining."

                MARTIN LUTHER (Sermon on Matthew 24:15-28)
                I realize I am sounding like a broken record here, but if all of verse 27 involves the 70th week, inserting Christ into verse 27 simply cannot work if there are not supposed to be any gaps in the 70 weeks. That would clearly mean this part...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate...has to be fulfilled within 3.5 years of Christ's death in order for there to be no gaps in the 70 weeks. Totally unreasonable to think that part has any fulfillment within 3.5 years of Christ's death. And once again, the way some of you are trying to get around this dilemma, you wrongly claim that part is not fulfilled during the 70th week. Yet it clearly is though. You can't make it not so simply because you refuse to believe it. That's not the way things work.

                Comment


                • Re: The Preterist Gap

                  Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                  Sure it's possible that this could be fulfilled within 69.5 weeks. I rather see that 70 weeks are determined for those events to occur :

                  24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

                  Sure it's possible that you could see those fulfillments somehow at the cross. Yet Zech 13, Ezekiel 43 show that Jerusalem will be purified, the Most Holy Anointed, and the end to prophecy at the second coming. It is more fully fulfilled at the second coming.
                  Was the intent of the Daniel prophetic phrase 'seal up the vision and prophecy' related to all prophecy about every thing that could ever be prophesided about; or was Daniel limiting the sealed prophecy related to the subject of his 70 weeks; aka, all prophecy related to the coming of Messiah to end the sacrifices once and for all in His death?

                  Luke "24:44 And Jesus said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures"

                  Did Jesus include Daniel's 9:24 prophecy concerning himself, in the statement above, saying it was all fulfilled?

                  What is the most natural reading and expectation?

                  Who is the main subject of Daniel 9? Is it not Jesus Messiah and the major things He would accomplish by the 70th week? (items in 9:24)
                  Does Jesus not say above, that all things prophesied concerning Himself from the prophets (Daniel) were fulfilled?

                  What if....aside from what some teachers teach, and what you and I have both been brought to believe of Daniel 9 in the past.....what if it has nothing to do with the 'second coming' at all...and is solely focusing on Christ's first Advent?
                  Wouldn't that very naturally and very clearly harmonize with Jesus' statement above?

                  Does it ever bother you, that to get from 70 weeks fulfillment timeline (which ends in the first century); to our current century 2000+ years later; that you are forced to imbed huge centuries of missing gaps into both the text of Daniel 9's prophecy that just isn't there?

                  Had Daniel really meant 2490 years to complete the prophecy, or 3490 years, etc...why would he not have stated it clearly that way?

                  Points to ponder.

                  Comment


                  • Re: The Preterist Gap

                    Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                    Was the intent of the Daniel prophetic phrase 'seal up the vision and prophecy' related to all prophecy about every thing that could ever be prophesided about; or was Daniel limiting the sealed prophecy related to the subject of his 70 weeks; aka, all prophecy related to the coming of Messiah to end the sacrifices once and for all in His death?

                    Luke "24:44 And Jesus said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures"

                    Did Jesus include Daniel's 9:24 prophecy concerning himself, in the statement above, saying it was all fulfilled?

                    What is the most natural reading and expectation?

                    Who is the main subject of Daniel 9? Is it not Jesus Messiah and the major things He would accomplish by the 70th week? (items in 9:24)
                    Does Jesus not say above, that all things prophesied concerning Himself from the prophets (Daniel) were fulfilled?

                    What if....aside from what some teachers teach, and what you and I have both been brought to believe of Daniel 9 in the past.....what if it has nothing to do with the 'second coming' at all...and is solely focusing on Christ's first Advent?
                    Wouldn't that very naturally and very clearly harmonize with Jesus' statement above?

                    Does it ever bother you, that to get from 70 weeks fulfillment timeline (which ends in the first century); to our current century 2000+ years later; that you are forced to imbed huge centuries of missing gaps into both the text of Daniel 9's prophecy that just isn't there?

                    Had Daniel really meant 2490 years to complete the prophecy, or 3490 years, etc...why would he not have stated it clearly that way?

                    Points to ponder.
                    Yes definitely the main subject of Dan 9 is Jesus.

                    I do understand why you see v24 fulfilled at the cross at year 486.5, I just see this all fulfilled more completely at the second coming at year 490.

                    Sure it would be great if the 490 years for "Daniel's people" was uninterrupted by the gospel to the nations.

                    Its just when I look at the cross, and the 3.5 subsequent years, I dont see an abomination there, or a Jew focussed period then. It's as if the nations were already focused on at Pentecost when tongues of many nations were spoken, then the Eunuch was saved, then Peter had his vision, all occurring within that 3.5 year period. There was no exclusive focus on Israel, no abomination, no 3.5 year period ending with an end of the age. No desolator setting up an abomination and coming to his "decreed end" 3.5 years later.

                    Yet all these events are precisely expected at the GT at the end of the age. I didn't create the 2000 year split in the Jewish period, God did at the cross which opened up salvation to all mankind, Jew and Gentile alike.

                    1290 days before the resurrection the abomination will be set up, at that time the blindness of Israel will lift and the Messiah will once again be confirmed to the Jewish nation for the last 3.5 years, until the man of sin is destroyed.
                    486.5 Jewish years... Indefinite Gentile period.... 3.5 Jewish years

                    Its better than trying to manufacturer historical fulfillments that just do not exist, whereas the future GT fits ever so smoothly into Dan 9:27b

                    Comment


                    • Re: The Preterist Gap

                      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                      Yes definitely the main subject of Dan 9 is Jesus.

                      I do understand why you see v24 fulfilled at the cross at year 486.5, I just see this all fulfilled more completely at the second coming at year 490.

                      Sure it would be great if the 490 years for "Daniel's people" was uninterrupted by the gospel to the nations.

                      Its just when I look at the cross, and the 3.5 subsequent years, I dont see an abomination there, or a Jew focussed period then. It's as if the nations were already focused on at Pentecost when tongues of many nations were spoken, then the Eunuch was saved, then Peter had his vision, all occurring within that 3.5 year period. There was no exclusive focus on Israel, no abomination, no 3.5 year period ending with an end of the age. No desolator setting up an abomination and coming to his "decreed end" 3.5 years later.

                      Yet all these events are precisely expected at the GT at the end of the age. I didn't create the 2000 year split in the Jewish period, God did at the cross which opened up salvation to all mankind, Jew and Gentile alike.

                      1290 days before the resurrection the abomination will be set up, at that time the blindness of Israel will lift and the Messiah will once again be confirmed to the Jewish nation for the last 3.5 years, until the man of sin is destroyed.
                      486.5 Jewish years... Indefinite Gentile period.... 3.5 Jewish years

                      Its better than trying to manufacturer historical fulfillments that just do not exist, whereas the future GT fits ever so smoothly into Dan 9:27b
                      We all know there were different abominations of desolations in the past; -- statue of zeus in the temple; pigs sacrificed on the altar; pagan armies destroying the temple, etc....

                      what if the Ultimate and true abomination of desolation, was simply the rejection of Jesus Messiah by those He came to, His own? (which did occur in the midst of the final 70th week when He was rejected and crucified).\

                      Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

                      Matthew 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected"

                      Matthew 23:37 "I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

                      Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

                      Luke 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected

                      Luke 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

                      Luke 20:15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them? He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected

                      John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

                      John 19:14 "he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! 5 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him"



                      Could there really ever be an abomination of desolation that is greater than what occured above, when Messiah the Prince was rejected, and cut off from the land of the living during the midst of the 70th week?

                      To fulfil the 70 week prophecy, the 70th week doesn't have to fully be completed; and the last fulfillment occur at the final hour of that day; only that the fulfillment occur in the midst of the 70th week, at some point therein. As we see huge evidence that it did.

                      Comment


                      • Re: The Preterist Gap

                        Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                        We all know there were different abominations of desolations in the past; -- statue of zeus in the temple; pigs sacrificed on the altar; pagan armies destroying the temple, etc....

                        what if the Ultimate and true abomination of desolation, was simply the rejection of Jesus Messiah by those He came to, His own? (which did occur in the midst of the final 70th week when He was rejected and crucified).\

                        Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

                        Matthew 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected"

                        Matthew 23:37 "I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

                        Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

                        Luke 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected

                        Luke 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

                        Luke 20:15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them? He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected

                        John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

                        John 19:14 "he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! 5 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him"



                        Could there really ever be an abomination of desolation that is greater than what occured above, when Messiah the Prince was rejected, and cut off from the land of the living during the midst of the 70th week?

                        To fulfil the 70 week prophecy, the 70th week doesn't have to fully be completed; and the last fulfillment occur at the final hour of that day; only that the fulfillment occur in the midst of the 70th week, at some point therein. As we see huge evidence that it did.
                        What you say seems logical, however when I read verses about the abomination I get the sense that this is not a concept, or an evil act performed by people. That is called sin or evil, or persecution.

                        An abomination being set up seems to be an actual object. We have a good example of this very abomination in the behavior of Antiochus Epiphanes, who I believe is referred to in Daniel 8, and Daniel 11:21-35.

                        This example is when Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Zeus in the temple of God. Apparently this statue looked like Antiochus himself, who regarded himself as Zeus incarnate.

                        In the same manner Rev 13 describes the image of the beast being set up by the false Prophet at the time of the beast's 42 month reign. This image seems to fit the timing and nature of an abomination quite precisely for a number of reasons.
                        1) it is very much like the Antiochus example of an actual image in the temple
                        2) it is associated with the 42 month reign of the beast, fitting in with the half seven of v27
                        3) the one who sets it up comes to his end 3.5 years later at the second coming seemingly fitting v27
                        4) the second coming at that time is closely related to the fulfillments of v24, prophesy stops then as per Zech 13, Mt Zion is anointed, Jerusalem repents and is purified.

                        Thus if I compare the two possibilities, the image of the beast in Rev 13 seems far closer to what an abomination is than the very evil and sinful behavior quoted in your post. An OT study of the Hebrew word shiqquwts shows that the word is mainly used in context of false idols and objects of worship, rather than sinful behavior.

                        Comment


                        • Re: The Preterist Gap

                          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                          Its just when I look at the cross, and the 3.5 subsequent years, I dont see an abomination there, or a Jew focussed period then. It's as if the nations were already focused on at Pentecost when tongues of many nations were spoken, then the Eunuch was saved, then Peter had his vision, all occurring within that 3.5 year period. There was no exclusive focus on Israel, no abomination, no 3.5 year period ending with an end of the age. No desolator setting up an abomination and coming to his "decreed end" 3.5 years later.

                          This is a perfect example of someone reasoning things in a very logical manner. I have to wonder though, these same ones that insist there are no gaps in the 70 weeks, would they still have Christ fulfilling verse 27 if they eventually admitted that all of verse 27 pertains to the 70th week?

                          There is only one way Christ can fit into verse 27, yet I'm not convinced it is even correct. The gap one is placing after the middle of the week, that is not meaning what happens after the 70 weeks are already finished, such as it meaning 70 AD, but that it is meaning in the end of the age and is referring to the GT, thus the GT resumes the latter portion of the 70th week. That of course is pretty much your interpretation. Any other interpretation though, which has Christ fulfilling the middle of the week, and that there are no gaps in the 70 weeks, simply cannot work, and the part after the middle of the week undeniably proves it.

                          So let's consider your interpretation for a moment then.

                          Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


                          The question that needs to be asked here, is this. and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate. Shall make what desolate according to verse 27? How can one answer that if they place a gap before this? Surely what he makes desolate, the answer has to be found within verse 27 itself, otherwise it renders that verse nonsensical if we have no clue from this verse telling us what it is that he makes desolate. Maybe it's just my translation that's the problem, and that other translations answer this for us in that verse? But as to the translation I'm using, I'm not seeing how it can't be connected with the sacrifice and the oblation that he causes to cease. And if it is connected with that, how are we to make sense of this verse if there is a 2000 year gap after the middle of the week, or even a 40 year gap after the middle of the week?

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                          • Re: The Preterist Gap

                            Originally posted by divaD View Post
                            I realize I am sounding like a broken record here, but if all of verse 27 involves the 70th week, inserting Christ into verse 27 simply cannot work if there are not supposed to be any gaps in the 70 weeks. That would clearly mean this part...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate...has to be fulfilled within 3.5 years of Christ's death in order for there to be no gaps in the 70 weeks. Totally unreasonable to think that part has any fulfillment within 3.5 years of Christ's death. And once again, the way some of you are trying to get around this dilemma, you wrongly claim that part is not fulfilled during the 70th week. Yet it clearly is though. You can't make it not so simply because you refuse to believe it. That's not the way things work.
                            Now it’s me sounding like a broken record! Here is verse 27 with my notes. As you can see, there is a full stop after the abolition of sacrifice. Then the passage moves to the next stage. There will be a defiant return to sacrifice, and these will ‘overspread’ the following 40 years until judgement is poured out.

                            So, verse 27 involves the 70th week, as well as the repercussions of rejecting it. The fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple didn't take place within the actual seventy weeks themselves, but the prophet mentioned it to provide information of the aftermath to the weeks in order to explain what the eventual outcome would be.
                            He (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3˝ yrs after his revealing) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (temple curtain torn) And on the wing of abominations (ongoing sacrifice an abomination) shall be one who makes desolate, (Titus destroys temple) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. (judgement on Jerusalem)
                            "Your name and renown
                            is the desire of our hearts."
                            (Isaiah 26:8)

                            Comment


                            • Re: The Preterist Gap

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              It says there will be 70 Weeks. The question regards whether the 70th Week must be a full week--not that it didn't take place. It cannot be shown that it had to be a full week, nor that it could only be a half week. What we do have is evidence that it was a half week because the main event, completing the 70 Weeks Prophecy, was said to take place in the *middle of the Week.*

                              Dan 9. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.
                              Verse 27 doesn't end there though, correct? What about the part after that? Why wouldn't that be part of the 70th week? And what about the part that indicates he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week? It can't get any clearer than that, can it? Why would the angel have said one week if he didn't literally mean one week? What does one week mean in Daniel 9? 3.5 years or 7 years? If it only means 3.5 years, imagine trying to multiply 70 weeks times 3.5, then expecting that to come close to 490.

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              If I say a major event will take place in 10 days, must the 10th day be a full 24 hour day before the event takes place? No.

                              If I say Christ will fulfill 6 items in 70 weeks, must the 70th week be a full week? We have evidence that Christ fulfilled the 6 items in the *middle* of the 70th Week.

                              It seems clear to me that the major event to take place in the 70th Week was the death and resurrection of Christ. The following passages in Hebrew suggest that Christ completed the 70 Weeks Prophecy in the *middle of the 70th Week* when he died and opened access for Christians to the temple in heaven.

                              This was the 6th item mentioned by Daniel in 7.24, the "anointing of the Most Holy." This was, I believe, Jesus establishing a way not into the temple on earth, but rather, into the real temple in heaven. The temple on earth stopped functioning, and the sacrifices and offerings rendered obsolete, when the veil was rent at the death of Christ.

                              Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning.

                              Hebrews 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

                              Hebrews 9:25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.

                              Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

                              Hebrews 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

                              Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus.
                              Even though your arguments here are indeed valid in some cases, I don't see them them being valid in this particular case. So I refer you back to my arguments in the first portion of this post. They should equally apply here.

                              Comment


                              • Re: The Preterist Gap

                                Originally posted by randyk View Post
                                It says there will be 70 Weeks. The question regards whether the 70th Week must be a full week--not that it didn't take place.
                                Randy, I neglected to ask you something in my other post I was addressing to you. There are 3 blocks of time in Dan 9...7 weeks, 62 weeks, and 1 week. Why are you not insisting it's meaning less than 7 weeks, and that it's meaning less than than 62 weeks? Why are you only doing that with the final week?

                                Do you take 7 weeks to be meaning a full 49 years? Do you take 62 weeks to be meaning a full 434 years? Those two combined, are you taking those to be a full 483 years? If yes to all of those, why aren't you remaining consistent by treating the 70th week the same, that it means a full 7 years? Does not 49 + 434 + 7 = 490? Isn't that the exact same amount 70 x 7 equals?

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