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  • Re: The Preterist Gap

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    I realize you are not addressing me but that you are addressing DD, yet I can't help but interject yet again. During any gap none of the 70 weeks are even being counted. So I don't see what the problem is then?
    David, you may address me at any time on any subject. To answer your question, your point makes sense only if the 70 Weeks are not a countdown. If I count down from 10 to 1, I can't stop at 2, let 2 months pass, and then resume counting down to 1!

    The 70 Weeks count down from the 70th Week to the Week no. 1. We can't stop at half-way through Week no. 1, let 2000 years pass, and then resume counting for the last half of Week no. 1!

    I've had this argument with others before. The argument is made that time is counted in the 70 Weeks only when it is relevant to do so. But I would ask, What makes it relevant to count? It seems much more likely that this is a "countdown" to a certain event, and that the event is Christ's death and resurrection. The 6 things in Dan 9.24 likely applied to that event, in my view. And quite frankly, that is how the Early Church viewed it, and that's how much of Christian History has viewed it.

    Comment


    • Re: The Preterist Gap

      Originally posted by DurbanDude
      Nice, so Martin Luther was certainly pointing towards a full historical interpretation of the 70 weeks. I would also have that view if there was a clear era-ending moment in the early church dated to late 34 AD which would complete the list in v24.

      A) There is no era-ending moment in 34 AD, no precise 3.5 year period following the cross. Ideas like Paul's conversion, Stephen's stoning, Cornelius' conversion, Peter's vision are neither clearly dated to late 34 AD nor are clear era-ending moments.
      As you know, I favour Cornelius' conversion for the very reasons that you don’t. The conversion of Paul was late AD 32; the stoning of Stephen was a little earlier and Cornelius a little later - I say early 34 BC. Where do you get this “late” AD 34 from?

      As for clear era-ending moments, God’s blessing to the Gentiles was the high point of ‘confirming the covenant.’ Peter explained to the Jews, “Men of Israel … you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.” (Acts 3:25-26)

      In other words, he confirmed the covenant by guaranteeing first option to the children of the covenant then afterward by granting the good news to the Gentiles as he had promised all those years before.” Era-ending?


      Originally posted by DurbanDude
      B) The concept that the crucifixion was not for the Gentiles until Peter's vision is undermined by the cross opening the way for all. The conversion of the Ethiopian also occurred earlier.
      No one is saying Gentiles couldn’t respond from the Cross. But just as the Jewish Pentecost occurred 50 days after, the Gentile outpouring of the Spirit occurred a little later again. A tidal wave of revival happened after that event. New-era-beginning?


      Originally posted by DurbanDude
      C) Some of the events of v24 are not convincingly fulfilled at year 486.5
      They look convincing enough to me. The last clause (‘to anoint the most holy’) has created a few questions. I dealt with that in a post to Randy and I think you might appreciate it too.
      "Your name and renown
      is the desire of our hearts."
      (Isaiah 26:8)

      Comment


      • Re: The Preterist Gap

        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
        Interesting. Up until the cross, the 490 year period is still missing a final 3.5 year period. Then Dan 9:27 describes a final 3.5 year period at the very end on the chapter and some people can't see that it completes the 490 year period. And want to place it 40 years later.

        Sure verse 26 is an aside, verse 27b is not an aside. It is the last verse in the chapter and completes the 490 year period by adding the required/missing 3.5 years. Anything else isn't logical considering Chapter 10 starts with a whole new subject.
        I don't know if I will ever change my current view, but I do have to admit, you have some compelling arguments. One thing that should be undeniable, somewhere in the 70 weeks there is a gap. There is no logical way to make sense of verse 26 and 27 unless there is a gap somewhere in the 70 weeks.

        Comment


        • Re: The Preterist Gap

          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
          Interesting. Up until the cross, the 490 year period is still missing a final 3.5 year period. Then Dan 9:27 describes a final 3.5 year period at the very end on the chapter and some people can't see that it completes the 490 year period. And want to place it 40 years later.

          Sure verse 26 is an aside, verse 27b is not an aside. It is the last verse in the chapter and completes the 490 year period by adding the required/missing 3.5 years. Anything else isn't logical considering Chapter 10 starts with a whole new subject.
          There is -no- 490 year prophecy.
          There is....
          70 weeks of 7, prophecy.
          When the final 70 week starts, and in the midst of that week all is fulfilled, there is no requirement to complete a full week.

          All prior weeks 1-69 were full weeks because they were getting us ‘to’ the final 7 week that somewhere in its midst, see the fulfillment.

          I am gonna buy a car in 3 months.
          Any time in the midst of January, fulfills the 3 month prophecy. Nothing requires my to buy the car on Jan 31 at 11pm.
          Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
          • "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13
          • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Then took they up stones to cast at him" John 8:23;57
          • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.I will not give my glory unto another. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I AM He; I AM the first, I also AM the last." Isaiah 41:4, 44:6, 48:11
          • "And when I saw [the son of Man], I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I AM the first and the last:I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
          • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12
          • "And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of [YHWH] the LORD Shall be saved." Joel 2:32
          • "by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. " Acts 4:10

          Comment


          • Re: The Preterist Gap

            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            And quite frankly, that is how the Early Church viewed it, and that's how much of Christian History has viewed it.
            As to how much of the early church viewed it, there were also those at the time who viewed the 70th week being fulfilled after a gap, and fulfilled by the ac. So this isn't a modern idea that came to be in the last century or two.

            Comment


            • Re: The Preterist Gap

              Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
              T
              When the final 70 week starts, and in the midst of that week all is fulfilled, there is no requirement to complete a full week.
              I agree 99%
              There is the statement that it will be confirmed for 1 week. So there is a requirement.
              And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

              Comment


              • Re: The Preterist Gap

                Originally posted by David Taylor View Post

                I am gonna buy a car in 3 months.
                Any time in the midst of January, fulfills the 3 month prophecy. Nothing requires my to buy the car on Jan 31 at 11pm.
                Once again, the text in verse 24 indicates 70 weeks are determined. How long are 70 weeks meaning? 70 x 7. How much is 70 x 7? 490. How then can anyone conclude that it can be less than 490 years that are determined to finish the transgression, etc? Anything less than 490 years is not even remotely a full 490 years. If 483 years have already preceded the final week, how is it then, according to your logic here, that the one meant in verse 27 can confirm the covenant with many for one week, IOW 7 years? The midst of the week is not 7 years, it only takes into account the first 3.5 years, therefore there has to be the remaining 3.5 years of the 7 years found within the text in verse 27.

                And there is, it's right there at the end of the verse after the middle of the week. ...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. What comes after the middle of the week if not the remainder of the week?

                Comment


                • Re: The Preterist Gap

                  Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
                  I agree 99%
                  There is the statement that it will be confirmed for 1 week. So there is a requirement.
                  Based on your reasoning here, which BTW is correct, maybe you would have been better off agreeing 1% instead. Or 0% would have been even better.

                  Comment


                  • Re: The Preterist Gap

                    Originally posted by divaD View Post
                    Once again, the text in verse 24 indicates 70 weeks are determined. How long are 70 weeks meaning? 70 x 7. How much is 70 x 7? 490. How then can anyone conclude that it can be less than 490 years that are determined to finish the transgression, etc? Anything less than 490 years is not even remotely a full 490 years. If 483 years have already preceded the final week, how is it then, according to your logic here, that the one meant in verse 27 can confirm the covenant with many for one week, IOW 7 years? The midst of the week is not 7 years, it only takes into account the first 3.5 years, therefore there has to be the remaining 3.5 years of the 7 years found within the text in verse 27.

                    And there is, it's right there at the end of the verse after the middle of the week. ...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. What comes after the middle of the week if not the remainder of the week?
                    It can be less than 490 because:
                    1) the fulfillment occurs within the final 70 week
                    2) the wording says ‘in the midst’ of the (70th)week’ not after or ‘at the end’ of the week(70).

                    Again, look at what Christ did when he said, It is finished.
                    And when He said, all prophesy concerning me spoken of in the prophets, is fulfilled.

                    Christ is all!
                    Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
                    • "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13
                    • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Then took they up stones to cast at him" John 8:23;57
                    • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.I will not give my glory unto another. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I AM He; I AM the first, I also AM the last." Isaiah 41:4, 44:6, 48:11
                    • "And when I saw [the son of Man], I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I AM the first and the last:I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
                    • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12
                    • "And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of [YHWH] the LORD Shall be saved." Joel 2:32
                    • "by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. " Acts 4:10

                    Comment


                    • Re: The Preterist Gap

                      Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
                      I agree 99%
                      There is the statement that it will be confirmed for 1 week. So there is a requirement.
                      Check the Hebrew...the word [for] is an English insert not present.

                      Could have also said, ‘in’ 1 week, or restating what it does say, ‘in the midst’.
                      Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
                      • "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13
                      • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Then took they up stones to cast at him" John 8:23;57
                      • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.I will not give my glory unto another. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I AM He; I AM the first, I also AM the last." Isaiah 41:4, 44:6, 48:11
                      • "And when I saw [the son of Man], I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I AM the first and the last:I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
                      • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12
                      • "And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of [YHWH] the LORD Shall be saved." Joel 2:32
                      • "by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. " Acts 4:10

                      Comment


                      • Re: The Preterist Gap

                        Originally posted by divaD View Post
                        Based on your reasoning here, which BTW is correct, maybe you would have been better off agreeing 1% instead. Or 0% would have been even better.
                        Not at all.
                        Jesus did indeed lay an eternal foundation and obtained our redemption in the midst of the week. I believe the Holy Spirit confirmed this during the latter half of the week , climaxing with the infilling of the Gentiles.

                        Without a full and proper and complete redemption, the Holy Spirit would not be poured out in confirmation like it did.
                        And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                        Comment


                        • Re: The Preterist Gap

                          Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                          It can be less than 490 because:
                          1) the fulfillment occurs within the final 70 week
                          2) the wording says ‘in the midst’ of the (70th)week’ not after or ‘at the end’ of the week(70).

                          Again, look at what Christ did when he said, It is finished.
                          And when He said, all prophesy concerning me spoken of in the prophets, is fulfilled.

                          Christ is all!
                          That's assuming Christ is meant in verse 27. But even then the text still indicates the one who fulfills the middle of the week is the same one who shall confirm the covenant with many for one week, 7 years. The remainder of that 7 years has to do with abominable acts. No way can that fit with anything that happened within 3.5 years of Christ's death and resurrection.

                          Obviously a week would have a beginning and an ending. We already know from the text when the beginning would be. It would be once the person meant in verse 27 initially begins confirming the covenant with many. And then we know from the text what transpires in the middle of the week. What is missing then, in order to complete an entire week? The remainder of the week, the final 3.5 years. How can the remainder of the week not be after the middle of the week? How can verse 27 not have the remainder of the week recorded, if after the middle of the week, it then goes into events post the middle of the week? Why didn't it just stop at the middle of the week if the remainder of the week was not relevant in this verse?

                          Comment


                          • Re: The Preterist Gap

                            Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
                            Not at all.
                            Jesus did indeed lay an eternal foundation and obtained our redemption in the midst of the week. I believe the Holy Spirit confirmed this during the latter half of the week , climaxing with the infilling of the Gentiles.

                            Without a full and proper and complete redemption, the Holy Spirit would not be poured out in confirmation like it did.
                            If only there weren't abominable acts recorded in that verse after the middle of the week, maybe then Jesus might fit that verse. But that verse says what it says, therefore I can't see Jesus fitting verse 27.

                            Comment


                            • Re: The Preterist Gap

                              Originally posted by divaD View Post
                              Obviously a week would have a beginning and an ending.
                              Yes. And to be true to the calendar ,the last week would begin straight away...being the 70th week.

                              Seeing as the Anointed one comes after 7 and 62 weeks, the Holy Spirit begins his confirmation of the final week by anointing the Man Christ Jesus. It ends with the Holy Spirit infilling everyone else ….including the Gentiles who believe. Redemption achieved.
                              And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                              Comment


                              • Re: The Preterist Gap

                                Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
                                Yes. And to be true to the calendar ,the last week would begin straight away...being the 70th week.

                                Seeing as the Anointed one comes after 7 and 62 weeks, the Holy Spirit begins his confirmation of the final week by anointing the Man Christ Jesus. It ends with the Holy Spirit infilling everyone else ….including the Gentiles who believe. Redemption achieved.
                                and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

                                This is the remainder of the week though. This doesn't even remotely sound like what you are describing takes place in the remainder of the week. If you are correct then Gabriel was obviously wrong since both of you can't be correct if you are not even speaking of the same things taking place during the remainder of that week. I like you and all, but I think I will vote for Gabriel on this one, that he is the one who is correct about what takes place during the remainder of that week.

                                Comment

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