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The Preterist Gap

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  • Re: The Preterist Gap

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    This is the remainder of the week though. This doesn't even remotely sound like what you are describing takes place in the remainder of the week. If you are correct then Gabriel was obviously wrong since both of you can't be correct if you are not even speaking of the same things taking place during the remainder of that week. I like you and all, but I think I will vote for Gabriel on this one, that he is the one who is correct about what takes place during the remainder of that week.
    It simply is not about the remainder of the week.
    Im with Gabriel as well when he tells John the Baptist the time to recognize that the anointed one has arrived.
    This was his baptism of the Holy Spirit after the 69th week.

    Gabriel tells you messiah appears after 69 weeks in Daniel, then he tells you that on whom you see the Holy Spirit descend is confirmed as Messiah.

    How can you have him cut off at the end of the 69th week before he has the chance to fulfill his anointed ministry at his arrival after 69 weeks???

    Jesus completed the work that the Father sent him to do as the Anointed one in the 70th week as Gabriel said it would be done in 70 weeks.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

    Comment


    • Re: The Preterist Gap

      Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
      There is -no- 490 year prophecy.
      There is....
      70 weeks of 7, prophecy.
      When the final 70 week starts, and in the midst of that week all is fulfilled, there is no requirement to complete a full week.

      All prior weeks 1-69 were full weeks because they were getting us ‘to’ the final 7 week that somewhere in its midst, see the fulfillment.

      I am gonna buy a car in 3 months.
      Any time in the midst of January, fulfills the 3 month prophecy. Nothing requires my to buy the car on Jan 31 at 11pm.
      I'm sure you are convinced in your own mind that your thinking is perfectly logical.

      Why did God even mention 70 sevens, if it was only going to be 69.5 sevens? He knew the exact true year, why do you think He deliberately added on 3.5 years? How was the 7 year promise fulfilled in that final 3.5 years of the 7 year promise, if there was no seven years? Why was Jeremiah's prophecy of 70 years of captivity fulfilled in the 70th year, instead of earlier? Biblical precedent is that time periods are fulfilled at the end of the period, not sometime within. The 69 sevens were like that too, the anointed one didn't arrive sometime within the 69 sevens, but he arrived at the precise end of the 69th seven. Same as the 70th seven, those events of v24 and the end of the desolator will occur at the precise end of the 70th seven.

      I hope you are able to answer some of those questions in a convincing manner, otherwise we shall continue to agree to disagree on this matter. Your take on this certainly weakens your view.

      Comment


      • Re: The Preterist Gap

        Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
        Yes. And to be true to the calendar ,the last week would begin straight away...being the 70th week.

        Seeing as the Anointed one comes after 7 and 62 weeks, the Holy Spirit begins his confirmation of the final week by anointing the Man Christ Jesus. It ends with the Holy Spirit infilling everyone else ….including the Gentiles who believe. Redemption achieved.
        And then the mighty 70 weeks just fizzles out to an obscure conclusion sometime in late 34AD?

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        • Re: The Preterist Gap

          Originally posted by Cyberseeker View Post
          As you know, I favour Cornelius' conversion for the very reasons that you don’t. The conversion of Paul was late AD 32; the stoning of Stephen was a little earlier and Cornelius a little later - I say early 34 BC. Where do you get this “late” AD 34 from?

          As for clear era-ending moments, God’s blessing to the Gentiles was the high point of ‘confirming the covenant.’ Peter explained to the Jews, “Men of Israel … you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.” (Acts 3:25-26)

          In other words, he confirmed the covenant by guaranteeing first option to the children of the covenant then afterward by granting the good news to the Gentiles as he had promised all those years before.” Era-ending?




          No one is saying Gentiles couldn’t respond from the Cross. But just as the Jewish Pentecost occurred 50 days after, the Gentile outpouring of the Spirit occurred a little later again. A tidal wave of revival happened after that event. New-era-beginning?




          They look convincing enough to me. The last clause (‘to anoint the most holy’) has created a few questions. I dealt with that in a post to Randy and I think you might appreciate it too.
          The reason I keep referring to 34AD is that I place the cross at the Passover in 30 AD. 3.5 years later would be autumn of 34 AD. What is your date for the crucifixion?

          Your view on what was confirmed for 7 years, really has been confirmed for 2000 years, once again the final moment of the 70 sevens of Daniel's people kinda leaves something to be desired.

          486.5 Jewish years - - indefinite church period--3.5 Jewish years

          That view is starting to look really good in comparison with the other theories. Sure there's a gap, but at least the reasoning for them being Jewish years, and the final conclusion of the age are clearly and dramatically fulfilled as a fitting conclusion to the end of the world.

          Comment


          • Re: The Preterist Gap

            Originally posted by Cyberseeker View Post
            The text says, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week You are right that there was a covenant with the Jews after the 69th week, but it was a ‘confirming process’ over the entire 70th week.



            But when something is ‘anointed’ as holy, it is not the work of Messiah; it is the work of the Holy Spirit. So, at the beginning of the 70th week the Holy Spirit anointed Jesus as “The Anointed One.” (Matt 3:16, Acts 2:38) Then, at Pentecost he ‘anointed’ his Church. Yes? So, Daniel’s word, "to anoint the most holy" was part of a covenant confirmation that was taking place for more than one day of the 70th week.



            Yes, but types and shadows of the new Temple (and its anointing) is to be found in the Levitical ceremonies. Have you ever studied the holy oil in Leviticus 8? Moses anointed, not only the priests, but also the tabernacle itself. This prefigures Christ our High Priest, and us – the temple. My point to draw from the tabernacle is that it wasn’t anointed in one day. In verse 33 we are told the ordination process was to last seven days! This 7 days prefigures, I believe, the “anointing of the most holy" over the full span of Daniels 70th week.
            Sure it can fit v24, I dont deny that one can see v24 fulfilled at the cross, and even afterwards as per your logic concerning the infilling of the holy spirit. Sure Jesus fulfilled some prophecies at the first advent, a few concluded prophecies could be seen as sealed prophecies. Sure the cross took away sin, and the cross occurred in Jerusalem.

            I do not deny that in some manner one can see some sort of fulfillment of each of those v24 fulfillments at the time of the first advent.

            Second coming prophecy already clearly shows us how each one will be more clearly and dramatically fulfilled at the second advent at the end of a 3.5 year period of an abomination and desolation, when the desolator comes to his end. The sense of utter completion for Israel at that moment when the nation is restored and Mt Zion is raised above the rest, an anointed place for eternity where the nations pilgrim to. No further prophecy occurs in any form, according to Zech 13. The nation of Israel will be purified, never to be rejected again for its sin. That is a fitting conclusion to the 490 years period.

            Comment


            • Re: The Preterist Gap

              Originally posted by DurbanDude
              The reason I keep referring to 34AD is that I place the cross at the Passover in 30 AD. 3.5 years later would be autumn of 34 AD. What is your date for the crucifixion?
              7 April 30 for the crucifixion, and 8 March 34 for the last day of the 70th week. Please be aware that the Jews moved their New Year from spring to autumn during the hellenisation period. But God never changes.

              It’s possible that the Gentile outpouring was earlier than the last day of the Sabbatical cycle, but we don’t have a precise date given. Would a six month closeness make my ‘Gentile Pentecost’ a worthy event to end the weeks? It sounds pretty good to me.
              "Your name and renown
              is the desire of our hearts."
              (Isaiah 26:8)

              Comment


              • Re: The Preterist Gap

                Originally posted by Cyberseeker View Post
                7 April 30 for the crucifixion, and 8 March 34 for the last day of the 70th week. Please be aware that the Jews moved their New Year from spring to autumn during the hellenisation period. But God never changes.

                It’s possible that the Gentile outpouring was earlier than the last day of the Sabbatical cycle, but we don’t have a precise date given. Would a six month closeness make my ‘Gentile Pentecost’ a worthy event to end the weeks? It sounds pretty good to me.
                I'm not comfortable with that 6 month variation, especially since you seem to be the strongest advocate of precise 7 year cycles through the ages.

                Jesus ministry fits so well into the first half of the seven, being 3.5 years, I would expect a further 3.5 year period with a flexibility of around 2 months at max.

                The 1260 days, 1290 days, 1335 days creates a slight flexibility in various timelines when dealing with a 3.5 year period. There is also the common year of 12 x 29.5 day months, that year being 1254 days, and then also the concept of Adar additions of 30 days. So there is some flexibility in what entails a 3.5 year period, but I personally would not be satisfied if my viewpoint was a full 6 months out.

                Once again I see all methods as not quite satisfactory, even my own having a gap during the church age, until a future abomination of 3.5 years. At least my view explains the gap as the lack of Jewish exclusivity as the nations are given focus from the cross until the fullness of the nations.

                Comment


                • Re: The Preterist Gap

                  Originally posted by Cyberseeker View Post
                  7 April 30 for the crucifixion, and 8 March 34 for the last day of the 70th week. Please be aware that the Jews moved their New Year from spring to autumn during the hellenisation period. But God never changes.

                  It’s possible that the Gentile outpouring was earlier than the last day of the Sabbatical cycle, but we don’t have a precise date given. Would a six month closeness make my ‘Gentile Pentecost’ a worthy event to end the weeks? It sounds pretty good to me.
                  PS we agree on the date of the crucifixion, I knew it as spring/Passover 30 AD, but thanks for giving the actual date. I will remember that being my birthday month.

                  Comment


                  • Re: The Preterist Gap

                    When angels visit, as they did with Peter and Cornelius, we can reasonably guess that they are doing it according to preordained ‘times.’ But of course, I can’t prove that the visitation was right on the turn of the year.

                    When I get to heaven, I’m gonna have a few hard words with St.Luke for not leaving the date in his book of Acts. If he asks me why, I’m gonna say, it’s that Durban dude! He never listens to a word I say.

                    Oh well, we’ll just have to beg to differ on this one.
                    "Your name and renown
                    is the desire of our hearts."
                    (Isaiah 26:8)

                    Comment


                    • Re: The Preterist Gap

                      Originally posted by Cyberseeker View Post
                      When angels visit, as they did with Peter and Cornelius, we can reasonably guess that they are doing it according to preordained ‘times.’ But of course, I can’t prove that the visitation was right on the turn of the year.

                      When I get to heaven, I’m gonna have a few hard words with St.Luke for not leaving the date in his book of Acts. If he asks me why, I’m gonna say, it’s that Durban dude! He never listens to a word I say.

                      Oh well, we’ll just have to beg to differ on this one.
                      They must have lost a sentence in Acts, about the autumn of the 8th year of Pontius Pilate, when the vision of Peter fulfilled the age. Until you find it, DurbanDude remains in doubt

                      I shouldn't joke, next thing my comment will come up in google searches and be quoted as fact

                      Comment


                      • Re: The Preterist Gap

                        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                        I'm sure you are convinced in your own mind that your thinking is perfectly logical.

                        Why did God even mention 70 sevens, if it was only going to be 69.5 sevens? He knew the exact true year, why do you think He deliberately added on 3.5 years? How was the 7 year promise fulfilled in that final 3.5 years of the 7 year promise, if there was no seven years? Why was Jeremiah's prophecy of 70 years of captivity fulfilled in the 70th year, instead of earlier? Biblical precedent is that time periods are fulfilled at the end of the period, not sometime within. The 69 sevens were like that too, the anointed one didn't arrive sometime within the 69 sevens, but he arrived at the precise end of the 69th seven. Same as the 70th seven, those events of v24 and the end of the desolator will occur at the precise end of the 70th seven.

                        I hope you are able to answer some of those questions in a convincing manner, otherwise we shall continue to agree to disagree on this matter. Your take on this certainly weakens your view.
                        All 70 sevens commenced.
                        The fulfillment occurred ‘in the midst’ the final 70 week.

                        There was no need for the the fulfillment to wait to occur at 11:59pm on Dec 31 of the final weeks last year, to accomplish fulfillment.

                        Good you mentioned the 70 year Babylonian captivity of Jeremiah’s prophecy. It will help you understand the confused sticking point you are having on Daniel’s prophecy conclusion and fulfill.

                        Did the final 70th year release and fulfillment of the Jeremiah’s Babylonian 70th year prophecy require them to be held captive the full 12 months and 31 days of the final 70th year, or could they have been released anytime within the final 70th year period for the prophecy to be fulfilled?

                        That answer will also tell you why Daniel didn’t require the full completion of the last seven period either, only that the fullfillment has to occur anytime during the final 70th period.
                        Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
                        • "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13
                        • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Then took they up stones to cast at him" John 8:23;57
                        • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.I will not give my glory unto another. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I AM He; I AM the first, I also AM the last." Isaiah 41:4, 44:6, 48:11
                        • "And when I saw [the son of Man], I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I AM the first and the last:I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
                        • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12
                        • "And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of [YHWH] the LORD Shall be saved." Joel 2:32
                        • "by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. " Acts 4:10

                        Comment


                        • Re: The Preterist Gap

                          Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                          All 70 sevens commenced.
                          The fulfillment occurred ‘in the midst’ the final 70 week.

                          There was no need for the the fulfillment to wait to occur at 11:59pm on Dec 31 of the final weeks last year, to accomplish fulfillment.

                          Good you mentioned the 70 year Babylonian captivity of Jeremiah’s prophecy. It will help you understand the confused sticking point you are having on Daniel’s prophecy conclusion and fulfill.

                          Did the final 70th year release and fulfillment of the Jeremiah’s Babylonian 70th year prophecy require them to be held captive the full 12 months and 31 days of the final 70th year, or could they have been released anytime within the final 70th year period for the prophecy to be fulfilled?

                          That answer will also tell you why Daniel didn’t require the full completion of the last seven period either, only that the fullfillment has to occur anytime during the final 70th period.
                          For a prophecy that mentions only years (70 years) , any time in the last year is sufficient.

                          For a prophecy highly concerned with many 7 year periods and a split 7 year period, one would expect accuracy closer to the month.

                          Obviously I don't make the rules here, I'm just trying to use common sense, to be true to the wording.

                          Comment


                          • Re: The Preterist Gap

                            Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post

                            How can you have him cut off at the end of the 69th week before he has the chance to fulfill his anointed ministry at his arrival after 69 weeks???

                            .
                            But not everyone is in full agreement as to the initial starting point of the 70 weeks. We then have to use 360 day years, then multiply that times 490, which then gives us the amount of days involved. We then have to convert that into solar years, apparently. That according to some theories I have read in the past. And strangely enough, by doing these things, one ends up at the cross at the end of the 69 weeks. And why not a super major event at the end the 69th week, such as the cross? Why shouldn't that end the 69 weeks rather than something less significant? Don' get me wrong though, everything Christ did had significance, yet some of it was less significant in comparison to other things He did, such as when He went to the cross then rose.

                            Comment


                            • Re: The Preterist Gap

                              Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post

                              How can you have him cut off at the end of the 69th week before he has the chance to fulfill his anointed ministry at his arrival after 69 weeks???
                              In your view then, since 490 years obviously consist of a precise amount of days, how many days does it consist of then, and what formula are you using to arrive at the amount of days you deduce 490 years equal?

                              If perhaps you think the amount of days are unimportant, why do you think that then? Obviously 490 years consists of days, a precise amount of days in order to end up where the end of the 69th week stops at. Obviously it has to end at something significant. Offhand I can't think of anything more significant than the cross.

                              Comment


                              • Re: The Preterist Gap

                                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                                As to how much of the early church viewed it, there were also those at the time who viewed the 70th week being fulfilled after a gap, and fulfilled by the ac. So this isn't a modern idea that came to be in the last century or two.
                                Right, we can dignify a certain interpretation by those who have gone before. But when there is more than one position dignified by history we must make a choice here. Is the 70 Weeks period a "countdown" to a certain event--a "timer," as such? Or, is it just tracking a particular history when certain circumstances apply? The latter makes no sense to me. And that's why, I think, the "Gap Theory" does not have even close to the historical confirmation that the "countdown" theory does.

                                To decide if the 70 Weeks is a "countdown" to a certain event, we must identify if there is a particular event to count down to! And we have that in the form of the 6 things listed in vs. 24. These things appear to align perfectly with the account of the 70 Weeks itself, which appears to draw down to the cutting off of the Messiah after the 69th Week. He it is, then, who fulfills the 6 things listed in vs. 24. And his death appears to be the event that produces the terminal point for the 70 Weeks. Therefore, in my position the 70th Week ends in the middle of the Week, when Christ is cut off, and the 6 things associated with his 1st Coming are fulfilled.

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