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  • Re: The Preterist Gap

    Originally posted by Walls View Post
    But the prophecy of Daniel 9 is to "DANIEL'S PEOPLE". The verses you have brought apply to the Church.
    Is not the church now Daniel's people? Aren't there converted Jews within the church?

    Comment


    • Re: The Preterist Gap

      Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post

      ……….…………………………………..

      You're not willing to try and entertain as to why I am initially finding your interpretation illogical. In order for you to see it from my perspective you would first need to consider what verse 27 would mean if all of it was meaning what takes place during the 70th week, but that there are no gaps in the 70 weeks, such as you are insisting. It would mean the part after the middle of the week, where you insert a gap, that there instead would be no gap there at all, but that that part would have to be fulfilled within 3.5 years of Christ's death. Understanding it like that there would truly be no gaps in the 70 weeks, yet it renders the verse illogical. The way you and others try and get around this problem, you wrongly insist that the part after the middle of the week, this is not even fulfilled during this week, but it is instead fulfilled during a time post the 70th week.

      Comment


      • Re: The Preterist Gap

        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
        You say I have to choose, yet history is clear that the Jewish Civil War in Jerusalem morally and physically ruined Jerusalem which weakened the defenses for the Roman attack.

        The people (Jewish leaders in the Civil War) of the ruler who will come (Jesus) will SHACHATH (to ruin) the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood (Romans) : War will continue until the end (Romans) and desolations have been decreed (continued Roman persecution of Israel)

        You cannot say that view is impossible, because it both fits the history, and fits the text. Thus Jesus could be the "he" that confirms the promise. Which promise you may ask, the promise of v25 that an anointed one would come.

        You seem to deny that Jesus 3.5 year ministry, or an end times revival among the Jews would confirm Jesus as Messiah. That is what revival is, when a certain group of people become certain that Jesus is our saviour/Messiah. They get saved, Jesus as savior is confirmed in their hearts, the promise of v25 will be confirmed to the Jews when their blindness is lifted during the 3.5 years of the GT.

        Ps if you add 483 years from 457 BC, you do not get to the crucifixion. Try experiment with the maths, it doesnt work. What does however work, if you start from Ezras decree to spiritually restore Jerusalem in national repentance, 483 years later is the START of Jesus ministry, the coming of the anointed one in autumn 26 AD.
        OK. We've both set forth our arguments. So I'll only comment on two of your points.
        1. Israel's moral condition reached its low point, not in 70 AD, but 30 AD when Jesus called them sons of the serpent. It was then that all 330+ prophecies concerning Jesus, that had been fulfilled before their eyes, were ignored. It was then that they called on Caesar to be their king. It was then that they called for Barabas's punishment to fall on a Man who had only done good. It was then that they trashed the judgment process laid forth by Moses. It was then that they called for the blood of Messiah to be on them and their generations. It was then that "their House, the Temple, was left desolate". I challenge anyone to show lower morals for Israel than those of 30 AD. And yet God gave them another 40 years to repent before fulfilling the parable of the Vineyard in Matthew 22:7.
        2. Israel's blindness is not lifted during the Great Tribulation. It is only lifted when our Lord bursts through the clouds at the END of the Great Tribulation. It is only lifted, according to scripture, when the, "... fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25). The fullness of the Gentiles to occur is the day before Armageddon when the Church is gone, the Two Witnesses are dead and Israel rejoice their deaths, and the Beast can command a massive army from "the whole world" (Rev.16:14).

        Comment


        • Re: The Preterist Gap

          Originally posted by divaD View Post
          You're not willing to try and entertain as to why I am initially finding your interpretation illogical.
          I was entertaining you yesterday yes?
          I want you to be willing to entertain me today fair?
          And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

          Comment


          • Re: The Preterist Gap

            Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
            I was entertaining you yesterday yes?
            I want you to be willing to entertain me today fair?
            But your questions you need my response about are irrelevant until you first deal with the problem in verse 27 with your interpretation. If in verse 27, every single thing mentioned in it involves the 70th week, your interpretation of verse 27 is already invalid from the get go.

            Comment


            • Re: The Preterist Gap

              Originally posted by divaD View Post
              Is not the church now Daniel's people? Aren't there converted Jews within the church?
              No. The designation "Daniel's People" is given to Israel after God called them "Lo-ammi" - "you are NOT my people". It is one of the most tragic titles in the whole Bible. It means that God has forsaken you and you forfeit the title of "God's People", or, "My (God's) People".

              God will only call Israel "His People" again after gathering all Israel from the dispersion. Jeremiah 32:37-38 says;

              37 "Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
              38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

              Comment


              • Re: The Preterist Gap

                Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
                Okay, you're saying that grammatically "he" must refer to the nearest antecedent, which is Prince. And since the Prince was Roman, therefore the future "he" must also be Roman. I'm saying that "he" could refer to anyone, be he Roman or otherwise. This would be illogical grammatically, for if "he" is Egyptian—for example—then he's not Roman. I don't exclude the possibility that you're right, I'm just including another possibility.

                Cheers.
                Thanks for the exchange. God bless.

                Comment


                • Re: The Preterist Gap

                  Originally posted by divaD View Post
                  But your questions you need my response about are irrelevant until you first deal with the problem in verse 27 with your interpretation.
                  I assure you they are not irrelevant. They will show you that your interpretation of v27 and the 70th week in general is illogical from the get go.

                  And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                  Comment


                  • Re: The Preterist Gap

                    Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
                    I was entertaining you yesterday yes?
                    I want you to be willing to entertain me today fair?
                    Jeff, if there were 2 people debating what 2 plus 2 equals, and that one of them was concluding 4, the other concluding 5, is there really anything the latter can possibly submit that might cause the former to rethink his or her conclusion? Does the former even need to try and prove the latter might be correct by answering questions the latter is directing at them? Why would the former even waste their time with any of the latter's arguments when it's the former that is correct to begin with? In the same way, the fact all of verse 27 is meaning what takes place during the 70th week, wouldn't that make me the one concluding 2 plus 2 equals 4, thus making you the one concluding it equals 5 instead? BTW I don't even remotely think you literally think 2 plus 2 equals 5, yet one of us has to be wrong here, thus one of us has to be the one arguing 2 plus 2 equals 5. And I don't see how it can be me if I am agreeing with the text, that every single thing in verse 27 involves the 70th week, and that you are not agreeing with the text since you don't think every single thing mentioned in verse 27 involves the 70th week.

                    Comment


                    • Re: The Preterist Gap

                      Originally posted by divaD View Post
                      BTW I don't even remotely think you literally think 2 plus 2 equals 5, yet one of us has to be wrong here, thus one of us has to be the one arguing 2 plus 2 equals 5. And I don't see how it can be me …...
                      Answer my questions with a simple yes or no and I might just surprise you.

                      What about this verse that has a gap in its sentence...,


                      Is 61
                      The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
                      Because the Lord has anointed me
                      To bring good news to the afflicted;
                      He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
                      To proclaim liberty to captives
                      And freedom to prisoners;
                      2
                      To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord
                      And the day of vengeance of our God;




                      lk 4

                      17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
                      18
                      “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
                      Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
                      He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
                      And recovery of sight to the blind,
                      To set free those who are oppressed,
                      19
                      To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

                      20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”


                      Half of Is 61:2 wasn't fulfilled that day but much later at the end of his ministry. Same thing is happening in Dan 9:27
                      And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                      Comment


                      • Re: The Preterist Gap

                        Originally posted by Walls View Post

                        God will only call Israel "His People" again after gathering all Israel from the dispersion.
                        Peter during the first century disagrees with your expectation.

                        Any member of the house of Israel living then, or any generation since then, become God’s people immediately when they repent.

                        Calvary is bigger than dispensationalism divisions and dis-unity within humankind.

                        Acts 2:36
                        Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
                        37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
                        38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                        39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
                        40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
                        41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized
                        Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
                        • "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13
                        • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Then took they up stones to cast at him" John 8:23;57
                        • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.I will not give my glory unto another. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I AM He; I AM the first, I also AM the last." Isaiah 41:4, 44:6, 48:11
                        • "And when I saw [the son of Man], I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I AM the first and the last:I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
                        • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12
                        • "And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of [YHWH] the LORD Shall be saved." Joel 2:32
                        • "by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. " Acts 4:10

                        Comment


                        • Re: The Preterist Gap

                          Originally posted by divaD View Post
                          I have no objections you understanding it like that. I didn't realize that's what you were ultimately meaning in your other post I was addressing.
                          Yes sir, I was pointing out why the Israeli dealings of God were separated via time. Some people call it a gap, but God knew the whole time what would happen, MAN {Israel} seems to always turn his back on God's plans. God wanted Israel to reveal to the world what serving God entails, instead Israel wanted to serve the worlds Gods, Jason wanted to Hellenize the Jews and the Maccabeans Revolted.

                          God's plans were to insert a Church Age for nigh 2000 years after that.

                          My point is, if we take the Church Age out, the Statue and the Beasts Periods all fit together perfectly. But only after the Rapture of the Church who delivered the Mortal Wound. The gates of hell can not prevail against the Church, thus the Beast was thwarted for a time as the Gospel went forth via the Gentile Church.

                          P.S. You guys say a prayer for me, I go to the Doc. Friday to see if my prostrate cancer is contained in the prostrate or spread.

                          God Bless brothers.

                          Comment


                          • Re: The Preterist Gap

                            Originally posted by divaD View Post
                            DurbanDude, I have been rethinking your interpretation of verse 27. Currently I still don't agree with your interpretation of that verse, yet I have now decided that it was wrong of me to insist your interpretation is illogical based on you placing a gap after the middle of the 70th week. There is some logic to your interpretation, the more I think about it, the fact you have the entire verse pertaining to the 70th week. But I wasn't wrong to insist that it is indeed illogical if anyone not seeing any gaps in the 70 weeks whatsoever, then having Christ fulfill the middle of the 70th week, then having the remainder of that verse referring to a period of time post the 70 weeks, thus a gap. The reason it's illogical is because all of verse 27 pertains to the 70th week. Therefore if Christ is meant, the part after the middle of the week would then need to be fulfilled within 3.5 years of Christ's death in order for there to be no gaps in the 70 weeks.
                            I think we both agree that the 490 year period has not been completed, hence a gap.

                            I see no reason to prefer a gap at the 69th seven, rather than in the midst of the 70th seven.

                            It is highly significant to Daniel's people that Jesus confirmed the coming of the anointed one, then Jesus' 3.5 years of ministry and the crucifixion being the final lamb sacrifice. All these events should logically have a huge place in any prophetic timetable for Israel, and just so happen to be a perfect match to the wording of v27a

                            That is something for you to ponder on, how conveniently Jesus fits the wording, and how important that period should be to any Jewish timeline. Sure the confirming the covenant is for the whole week, Jesus does that in two split periods. But setting up the abomination is another character, not Jesus.

                            Comment


                            • Re: The Preterist Gap

                              Originally posted by Cyberseeker View Post
                              To clarify, here is how I read Dan 9:26,27 (N.K.J.Version, bracketed notes added)

                              After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for himself; and the people (Roman troops in ad 70) of the prince who is to come (Titus, a roman general and prince) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

                              He (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after his revealing) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (temple curtain torn) And on the wing of abominations (ongoing sacrifice an abomination) shall be one who makes desolate, (Titus destroys temple) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. (judgement on Jerusalem)
                              Originally posted by divaD View Post
                              But if verse 27 only involves the 70th week, and that your argument is that there are no gaps in the 70 weeks, your interpretation here is then a contradiction of your position. Keep in mind though, this is if verse 27 only pertains to the 70th week, all of it IOW. Maybe you are not convinced, but many of us are though, that every single thing mentioned in verse 27 pertains to the 70th week.
                              I never said verse 27 only involves the 70th week. That's what you said. I believe the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple didn't take place within the actual seventy weeks, but the prophet mentioned it to provide information of the aftermath to the weeks in order to explain what the eventual outcome would be.
                              "Your name and renown
                              is the desire of our hearts."
                              (Isaiah 26:8)

                              Comment


                              • Re: The Preterist Gap

                                Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
                                Answer my questions with a simple yes or no and I might just surprise you.

                                What about this verse that has a gap in its sentence...,


                                Is 61
                                The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
                                Because the Lord has anointed me
                                To bring good news to the afflicted;
                                He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
                                To proclaim liberty to captives
                                And freedom to prisoners;
                                2
                                To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord
                                And the day of vengeance of our God;




                                lk 4

                                17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
                                18
                                “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
                                Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
                                He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
                                And recovery of sight to the blind,
                                To set free those who are oppressed,
                                19
                                To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

                                20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”


                                Half of Is 61:2 wasn't fulfilled that day but much later at the end of his ministry. Same thing is happening in Dan 9:27
                                Well said, I finally agree with you on something. So like me you split the final verse in the midst of the last seven?

                                Our difference being that I place the final 3.5 years at the end of the age, with v24 being fulfilled at the second coming when Israel repents and is purified, and the holy place is anointed. Mount Zion is anointed with God's presence at the second coming, and prophecy stops at that time according to Zech 13.

                                Comment

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