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*ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

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  • #46
    Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

    Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Everything you have shared on this thread is Golden and rightly divided IMHO.
    Thankyou and God bless you.
    God bless you also brother. The love of God is greater than any power on earth and he given it to us. Those who aren't aware of it now, will be later.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

      Originally posted by journeyman View Post
      Rev.2 and 1Cor.6 are speaking of being given "rule" to condemn, to destroy unbelievers, not to save anyone.

      Rev.20:4-5 speaks of reigning with Christ for the purpose of salvation, as Jesus did when he walked on earth. It's reigning as Ambassadors for the King. That reign, by the love of God, is now.

      Brother, the saints will never reign with Jesus by forcing unbelievers to obey him. The world thinks of ruling in terms of physical force and this misconception has infected Christian theology. Pontius Pilate thought he was ruling over Jesus. Pilate didn't know he was standing in the presence of his Creator. Pilate thought he had the power of life and death....over God. Seriously bro, think about that. Jesus said we can never die. Seriously, think about that kind of power.

      The New Jerusalem from above is the one on earth. It hasn't been transformed, or changed yet, but that doesn't matter. God appeared to mankind as a human being and proved his superiority over all. Jesus said,

      He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mk.16:16

      Jesus isn't returning to save doubters.


      Jesus said,

      He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jn.12:48

      The words he spoke 2000 years ago will judge mankind, not words he will speak in the future. His resurrection is the sign he gave for salvation.
      Fantastic post journeyman Jesus has accomplished everything He needed to do for mankind 2000 years ago that is why He said it is finished as there is no need or purpose for 1000 year reign it won’t save anyone

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

        Originally posted by journeyman View Post
        Rev.2 and 1Cor.6 are speaking of being given "rule" to condemn, to destroy unbelievers, not to save anyone.

        Rev.20:4-5 speaks of reigning with Christ for the purpose of salvation, as Jesus did when he walked on earth. It's reigning as Ambassadors for the King. That reign, by the love of God, is now.

        Brother, the saints will never reign with Jesus by forcing unbelievers to obey him. The world thinks of ruling in terms of physical force and this misconception has infected Christian theology.
        Regarding Rev 2 scripture is clear that God judges on judgement day not the saints.

        The word "rule" in Rev 2 is to shepherd, tend the sheep (poimaino). Some nations will be shepherded (and some destroyed) as per the word poimaino in Rev 2.

        In 1 Cor 6:1-5 the context is disputes between 2 parties, it's not referring to anything like the saints being in charge at the Great White Throne judgement. In this context of legal disputes, we are told believers will judge the world.

        In Daniel 7 the saints rule earthly kingdoms:
        the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High

        And in Rev 20, after the period of martyrdom under the beast (the beast being an end-times character who rules and persecutes for 3.5 years) then the saints rule for 1000 years.

        As shown, the view that the saints rule over the nations is more true to context, in each of those cases.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

          Originally posted by journeyman View Post
          The New Jerusalem from above is the one on earth. It hasn't been transformed, or changed yet, but that doesn't matter. God appeared to mankind as a human being and proved his superiority over all. Jesus said,

          He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mk.16:16

          Jesus isn't returning to save doubters.


          Jesus said,

          He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jn.12:48

          The words he spoke 2000 years ago will judge mankind, not words he will speak in the future. His resurrection is the sign he gave for salvation.
          I agree with all this, I don't really see the relevance. I agree Jesus isn't coming back to save doubters, he is coming back to save believers. We will be resurrected, citizens of the Jerusalem above, not the earthly Jerusalem. It is believers and not doubters who will rule over the nations, and judge them, I never said the unsaved will be saved, believers will be saved.

          Certainly there will be many judgements at the second coming, eg Jehosaphat amongst other, so I agree that the unsaved will be judged at the second coming as per John 12. Where we differ is that I place a further GWT judgement 1000 years after the persecution of the beast as per Rev 20. (that persecution of the beast being the final 3.5 years of this age)

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

            Originally posted by marty fox View Post
            Fantastic post journeyman Jesus has accomplished everything He needed to do for mankind 2000 years ago that is why He said it is finished as there is no need or purpose for 1000 year reign it won’t save anyone
            If Jesus has accomplished everything at the cross, I guess there's nothing for Him to do now? On the contrary the Bible teaches us that Jesus is very active in our lives, and Jesus will come at the second coming to put an end to worldly rule. And in many many verses describes the world after the second coming.

            Isaiah 2, Zech 14, Ezek 40-48, Rev 20, Rev 2, Acts 1, Zech 13, Isaiah 65, Dan 7, Isaiah 11, Zech 12, Ezekiel 39, Isaiah 66, Psalm 72, Joel 2, Joel 3, Jer 3, Zeph 3, Isaiah 34

            These prophecies can often contain a lot of detail eg. the measurements of the temple in Ezek 40, fisherman in En Gedi in Ezek 47. The destruction Edom in Isaiah 34. The 7 months of clearing dead bodies in Ezek 39. The surviving nations and annual celebration of Zech 14, the dead bodies of Isaiah 65. The specifics of the regathering in Isaiah 11.

            There are too many detailed prophecies about the world here on earth after the second coming, to write off thousands of verses with a concept "those are all symbols of the cross".

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
              Once again you make very good points, but within the Isaiah 65 city there is death, and yet within the Rev 21 city there is no death:

              I will rejoice over Jerusalem
              and take delight in my people;
              the sound of weeping and of crying
              will be heard in it no more.

              20 “Never again will there be in it
              an infant who lives but a few days,
              or an old man who does not live out his years;-
              the one who dies at a hundred
              will be thought a mere child;

              I can only assume that the verse is referring to no audible public weeping, which would have previously come from city wide disaster, wars, and national repentance. The wording specifically refers to AUDIBLE sounds, the sound of weeping, the voice of crying isn't heard in the city because there are no further national disasters. Yet in Rev 21, there is NO weeping, and NO death. There is a subtle difference there.
              Sorry, but though I get your point about there being death WITHIN the NJ, the translation actually of verse 20 then contradicts verse 19, for there will certainly be weeping if there is death occurring IN the city. This is where it gets interesting to consider the original:
              This basically says that there will NOT be any who do not have the full days of time, either child or old, but a boy will be a hundred years old.

              Then it moves to speak of the sinner (who is NOT in the city) who only living a hundred years old and dies is considered accursed.
              What you have done is jump on the words "in it" and made death occur in the city, yet there is no infant who lives but a few days or an old man who does not live out his years. This is the picture of NO DEATH!

              Rev 21 does NOT make a distinction and is NOT making a UNIVERSAL claim for the entire world.
              Firstly it IS a quote based on Isaiah 65, which is your first clue.
              Secondly it is spoken of in CONTEXT of the New Jerusalem:
              Rev 21:2* And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.*
              Rev 21:3* And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
              Thirdly, we are told there ARE those who are OUTSIDE the city:
              Rev 21:25* and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.*
              Rev 21:26* They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.*
              Rev 21:27* But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

              There are those who are UNCLEAN outside.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

                Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                Sorry, but though I get your point about there being death WITHIN the NJ, the translation actually of verse 20 then contradicts verse 19, for there will certainly be weeping if there is death occurring IN the city. This is where it gets interesting to consider the original:
                This basically says that there will NOT be any who do not have the full days of time, either child or old, but a boy will be a hundred years old.

                Then it moves to speak of the sinner (who is NOT in the city) who only living a hundred years old and dies is considered accursed.
                What you have done is jump on the words "in it" and made death occur in the city, yet there is no infant who lives but a few days or an old man who does not live out his years. This is the picture of NO DEATH!

                Rev 21 does NOT make a distinction and is NOT making a UNIVERSAL claim for the entire world.
                Firstly it IS a quote based on Isaiah 65, which is your first clue.
                Secondly it is spoken of in CONTEXT of the New Jerusalem:
                Rev 21:2* And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.*
                Rev 21:3* And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
                Thirdly, we are told there ARE those who are OUTSIDE the city:
                Rev 21:25* and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.*
                Rev 21:26* They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.*
                Rev 21:27* But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

                There are those who are UNCLEAN outside.
                I enjoyed the interesting perspective, but on closer analysis I don't see the change in context within v20 from "in" the city to outside the city.

                Also an eternal man should not be called an "old man", in eternity everyone should be the same age, no one being referred to as an "old man". In addition to "live out his years" implies mortality.

                So I still differ with you, I regard the transformed Israel (New land) in Isaiah 65 as a temporary situation until everything is made new in Rev 21.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

                  Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                  Regarding Rev 2 scripture is clear that God judges on judgement day not the saints.
                  I agree.

                  Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                  The word "rule" in Rev 2 is to shepherd, tend the sheep (poimaino). Some nations will be shepherded (and some destroyed) as per the word poimaino in Rev 2.
                  Shepherds don't use iron rods to tend sheep. The power to shatter, or destroy, is given for having previously ruled with Christ in meekness, faithfully keeping his work.

                  Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                  In 1 Cor 6:1-5 the context is disputes between 2 parties, it's not referring to anything like the saints being in charge at the Great White Throne judgement. In this context of legal disputes, we are told believers will judge the world.
                  Paul isn't saying believers will judge worldly legal disputes, or angelic disputes. Again, the judgment of the world and angels by the saints is the result of having loved and been mistreated by them, as our Lord was.

                  Paul is teaching that the church should not follow the example of the world. Its better to be defrauded
                  (1Cor.6:7), as our King was. So this passage doesn't mean judging ongoing disputes with unbelievers and sinning angels, but does speak of condemnation. This condemnation by the saints isn't because we wanted the law enforced, but because mercy was rejected.

                  I'll have to respond to the rest of your post later brother. God bless.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

                    Originally posted by journeyman View Post
                    I agree.

                    Shepherds don't use iron rods to tend sheep. The power to shatter, or destroy, is given for having previously ruled with Christ in meekness, faithfully keeping his work.

                    Paul isn't saying believers will judge worldly legal disputes, or angelic disputes. Again, the judgment of the world and angels by the saints is the result of having loved and been mistreated by them, as our Lord was.

                    Paul is teaching that the church should not follow the example of the world. Its better to be defrauded
                    (1Cor.6:7), as our King was. So this passage doesn't mean judging ongoing disputes with unbelievers and sinning angels, but does speak of condemnation. This condemnation by the saints isn't because we wanted the law enforced, but because mercy was rejected.

                    I'll have to respond to the rest of your post later brother. God bless.
                    If the Bible says that we will shepherd them with an irod rod, this speaks to me of strict disciplined care. You don't shepherd with an iron rod by destroying with an iron rod. That's not shepherding.

                    That type of strict rule over the nations is described in Zech 14:
                    16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.

                    These are not believing nations after the second coming. They are surviving nations, under strict rule. Fitting in with Rev 2

                    Regarding judging disputes, it is not for you to decide context. The context of 1 Cor 6 is settling legal disputes, it is has nothing to with condemnation. We will be appointed judges over disputes in the future world, so surely we are able to settle disputes among each other. This is the obvious context we should stick to.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

                      There is a lack of familiarity above on shepherding.

                      The shepherd had two tools to tend the flock.

                      One was his long wooden hooked staff that he would use to tend and guide and rescue wayward sheep within his flock that he cared over.

                      The other tool was his rod of iron. It was not used on his sheep at all. The shepherds rod of iron’s sole purpose was to destroy and kill the ravenous wolves that would come and try to harm the shepherd’s flock.

                      Never was a rod of iron used on sheep.
                      Never was a rod of iron used to subjegated, control, or shepherd wolves.
                      It was a tool solely of destruction of evil.

                      In Psalms, David uses the correct analogy of the rod of iron being able to dash a pottery jar to pieces, showing its destructive use and intent. John later in Revelation, quotes the Psalms, knowing his audience then at least, understood what the shepherd’s rod of iron was used for.

                      Smiting evil; never subjegating.

                      Food for thought for any today not familiar with the distinction of uses between Shepherd’s staff and shepherd’s rod of iron.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

                        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                        In Daniel 7 the saints rule earthly kingdoms:
                        the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High
                        The entire earth is given to the children of God as inheritance. The "dominions" that ultimately serve and obey him (Dan.7:27) are those which Jesus delegates as reward for faithfulness (Lk.19:17).

                        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                        And in Rev 20, after the period of martyrdom under the beast (the beast being an end-times character who rules and persecutes for 3.5 years) then the saints rule for 1000 years.
                        Ruling with Jesus is displayed by love, joy, peace, patience (the fruits of the Spirit) and is the result of being born again (made alive in Christ). This rule with Christ isn't apparent from Daniel, Isaiah, or the other prophets, but its the truth and it's known since Jesus conquered death. As I told you, Pilate thought he was ruling Jesus. He had it backwards.

                        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                        As shown, the view that the saints rule over the nations is more true to context, in each of those cases.

                        If the Bible says that we will shepherd them with an irod rod, this speaks to me of strict disciplined care. You don't shepherd with an iron rod by destroying with an iron rod. That's not shepherding.
                        Clay pots being broken to shivers is the end of the pot. It's the result of not submitting to the rule of Christ (Lk.19:14). You and I have submitted to his rule.

                        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                        That type of strict rule over the nations is described in Zech 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.
                        Knowing God through Christ should give believers a different perspective on what life and death is.

                        We should now see that those who tried to kill Jesus, the Prophets, the Apostles and the rest of his people (those who went against [New] Jerusalem, have rotted away.

                        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                        These are not believing nations after the second coming. They are surviving nations, under strict rule. Fitting in with Rev 2
                        What these nations are after Jesus's great victory over mankind's enemies (sin and death) is a mixture of believers and unbelievers, which is what we have now. The Feast of Tabernacles is to acknowledge our living in temporary shelters as we gather in the harvest, which is what we have now. The Jerusalem we go to is the new one (Heb.12:22). No rain = no growth, no understanding, no blessing.

                        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                        Regarding judging disputes, it is not for you to decide context. The context of 1 Cor 6 is settling legal disputes, it is has nothing to with condemnation. We will be appointed judges over disputes in the future world, so surely we are able to settle disputes among each other. This is the obvious context we should stick to.
                        Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1Cor.6:3

                        We won't settle disputes between angels in the next world. They will be condemned for mistreating those who gave no offence.

                        Condemnation is the result of rejecting the mercy of God and embraing justification by law. That's what the Corinthians were doing, so Paul said,

                        Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? (vs.7)

                        Why is it better to lay down, instead of desiring litigation?

                        for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Psa.143:2

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

                          Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                          There is a lack of familiarity above on shepherding.

                          The shepherd had two tools to tend the flock.

                          One was his long wooden hooked staff that he would use to tend and guide and rescue wayward sheep within his flock that he cared over.

                          The other tool was his rod of iron. It was not used on his sheep at all. The shepherds rod of iron’s sole purpose was to destroy and kill the ravenous wolves that would come and try to harm the shepherd’s flock.

                          Never was a rod of iron used on sheep.
                          Never was a rod of iron used to subjegated, control, or shepherd wolves.
                          It was a tool solely of destruction of evil.

                          In Psalms, David uses the correct analogy of the rod of iron being able to dash a pottery jar to pieces, showing its destructive use and intent. John later in Revelation, quotes the Psalms, knowing his audience then at least, understood what the shepherd’s rod of iron was used for.

                          Smiting evil; never subjegating.

                          Food for thought for any today not familiar with the distinction of uses between Shepherd’s staff and shepherd’s rod of iron.
                          Thanks David Taylor. I didn't know this.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

                            Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                            There is a lack of familiarity above on shepherding.

                            The shepherd had two tools to tend the flock.

                            One was his long wooden hooked staff that he would use to tend and guide and rescue wayward sheep within his flock that he cared over.

                            The other tool was his rod of iron. It was not used on his sheep at all. The shepherds rod of iron’s sole purpose was to destroy and kill the ravenous wolves that would come and try to harm the shepherd’s flock.

                            Never was a rod of iron used on sheep.
                            Never was a rod of iron used to subjegated, control, or shepherd wolves.
                            It was a tool solely of destruction of evil.

                            In Psalms, David uses the correct analogy of the rod of iron being able to dash a pottery jar to pieces, showing its destructive use and intent. John later in Revelation, quotes the Psalms, knowing his audience then at least, understood what the shepherd’s rod of iron was used for.

                            Smiting evil; never subjegating.

                            Food for thought for any today not familiar with the distinction of uses between Shepherd’s staff and shepherd’s rod of iron.
                            How then do you explain overcomers also ruling with a rod of iron, not prior to the 2nd coming though, but post the 2nd coming?

                            Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
                            27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

                            Since Jesus is the speaker in these two verses, it seems to me these verses are to be understood like such, in that case.


                            And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to the overcomers will I give power over the nations:
                            And the overcomers shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

                              Originally posted by divaD View Post
                              How then do you explain overcomers also ruling with a rod of iron, not prior to the 2nd coming though, but post the 2nd coming?

                              Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
                              27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

                              Since Jesus is the speaker in these two verses, it seems to me these verses are to be understood like such, in that case.


                              And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to the overcomers will I give power over the nations:
                              And the overcomers shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
                              This isn't necessarily post 2nd coming ...
                              ***
                              Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                              For You are the God of my salvation;
                              On You I wait all the day.

                              Psalms 25:5
                              ***

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

                                Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                                This isn't necessarily post 2nd coming ...
                                Let's say it isn't post the 2nd coming. That would present a problem as well, if the idea is for overcomers(Christians) to kill the lost(which appears to be DavidT's interpretation). Usually it's the other way around. In this age it's usually Christians who are being killed by the lost.

                                Comment

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