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  • #16
    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Originally posted by Christinme View Post
    I am not a frequent visitor to this section of the forum ... although I have posted here some in the past. My understanding leans more amil/postmil ... so yea I believe the Millenium is present ...

    Concerning Revelation 20:4 ... the coming to life is what I believes happens when one is born again ... before that one is dead ... although I would assume everyone here understands that is amil/postmil understanding ...
    Bingo...……………...

    Originally posted by Christinme View Post
    I think the martyrdom of the saints began with the martyrdom of the apostles ... and well aren't they alive NOW ... just as Jesus Christ is alive NOW ...
    yes they are...…..

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

      Originally posted by Christinme View Post
      I think the martyrdom of the saints began with the martyrdom of the apostles ... and well aren't they alive NOW ... just as Jesus Christ is alive NOW ...
      Good point, the souls of the martyrs are alive and were always alive since salvation.

      The souls never died. So if souls of the martrys come alive, but they were always alive, then this must be referring to their resurrection bodies.

      Which is exactly what the word resurrection means, the coming alive of the body. Its not a word used for salvation, the Greek word for resurrection consistently relates to the body being resurrected not the soul . The souls come alive at the first resurrection.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post

        The souls never died. So if souls of the martrys come alive, but they were always alive, then this must be referring to their resurrection bodies.
        Very good point. Thus something else that debunks Amil, proving Premil. Unless one wants to argue for dead souls coming back to life, rather than coming back to life bodily.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
          Good point, the souls of the martyrs are alive and were always alive since salvation.

          The souls never died. So if souls of the martrys come alive, but they were always alive, then this must be referring to their resurrection bodies.

          Which is exactly what the word resurrection means, the coming alive of the body. Its not a word used for salvation. The souls come alive at the first resurrection.
          It directly refers to their souls and that "they" came alive and ruled with Christ ... so seems to be talking about WHEN THEIR SOULS came "to life" which is when they were born from above. Seems you want to insert something else in there to be what the "they" is referring to other than their "souls" ...


          And many would say a soul consists of a body and spirit ... so then a soul couldn't exist without a body ...


          And then we have this ...


          1 Corinthians 15

          35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”

          36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.

          37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else.

          38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.

          39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.

          40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

          41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

          42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

          43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

          44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

          45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

          46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

          47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

          48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.

          49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.



          I fully expect when I leave this natural body (tent I am currently possessing) ... that I as a believer will be given my spiritual body immediately and will be in heaven as a soul (spirit and spiritual body) ...
          ***
          Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
          For You are the God of my salvation;
          On You I wait all the day.

          Psalms 25:5
          ***

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

            Originally posted by Christinme View Post
            It directly refers to their souls and that "they" came alive and ruled with Christ ... so seems to be talking about WHEN THEIR SOULS came "to life" which is when they were born from above. Seems you want to insert something else in there to be what the "they" is referring to other than their "souls" ...


            And many would say a soul consists of a body and spirit ... so then a soul couldn't exist without a body ...


            And then we have this ...


            1 Corinthians 15

            35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”

            36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.

            37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else.

            38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.

            39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.

            40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

            41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

            42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

            43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

            44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

            45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

            46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

            47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

            48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.

            49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.



            I fully expect when I leave this natural body (tent I am currently possessing) ... that I as a believer will be given my spiritual body immediately and will be in heaven as a soul (spirit and spiritual body) ...
            Aah so dead martyrs got saved. I wonder what they got martyred for then in the first place, if they weren't saved?

            If you read the text carefully it says the souls of the martyrs (dead Christians) came alive, yet you are trying to tie that in with the souls of alive unbelievers.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

              Originally posted by divaD View Post
              Very good point. Thus something else that debunks Amil, proving Premil. Unless one wants to argue for dead souls coming back to life, rather than coming back to life bodily.
              Dead souls do come to life ... not "coming back to life" ... no one is arguing that they are "coming back to life" ... and Revelation 4:20 doesn't talk about "+coming back to life" to then PROVE THAT IS THE BODY ... it talks about the souls coming to life ...

              Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

              See no "coming back to life" JUST "souls" "came to life" ... and it doesn't specifically specify that happened AFTER they were beheaded ...
              ***
              Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
              For You are the God of my salvation;
              On You I wait all the day.

              Psalms 25:5
              ***

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                Dead souls do come to life ... not "coming back to life" ... no one is arguing that they are "coming back to life" ... and Revelation 4:20 doesn't talk about "+coming back to life" to then PROVE THAT IS THE BODY ... it talks about the souls coming to life ...

                Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

                See no "coming back to life" JUST "souls" "came to life" ... and it doesn't specifically specify that happened AFTER they were beheaded ...
                It says the martyrs come to life.

                Not the soon to be martyrs come to life. They are already martyrs. Unless you toy with the obvious meaning of the text.

                As for getting a resurrection body when you die, is that what you claim?

                The description of the resurrection in 1 Cor 15 shows it is a general resurrection, so the dead and alive get our resurrection bodies at the same time.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                  Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                  Aah so dead martyrs got saved. I wonder what they got martyred for then in the first place, if they weren't saved?

                  If you read the text carefully it says the souls of the martyrs (dead Christians) came alive, yet you are trying to tie that in with the souls of alive unbelievers.
                  Well do you believe in justification, sanctification, glorification ... so well salvation isn't complete until one receives their "spiritual body" ...

                  And no I am not saying that they weren't saved until after they got martyred ... really seems you didn't read very well my post but just blew it off ...

                  And no it didn't say that dead Christians came alive ... it said souls came alive ... and it doesn't specify they came alive after they were martyred ... one can say an apple fell and it was red ... doesn't mean it wasn't red before it fell ... you want to insert an "order" THERE that doesn't necessarily exist ...
                  ***
                  Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                  For You are the God of my salvation;
                  On You I wait all the day.

                  Psalms 25:5
                  ***

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                    It says the martyrs come to life.

                    Not the soon to be martyrs come to life. They are already martyrs. Unless you toy with the obvious meaning of the text.

                    As for getting a resurrection body when you die, is that what you claim?

                    The description of the resurrection in 1 Cor 15 shows it is a general resurrection, so the dead and alive get our resurrection bodies at the same time.
                    It says the souls came to life ... not the martyrs came back to life ...

                    And so you think a soul can exist without a body?

                    And where does 1 Cor 15 show the dead and alive get our resurrection bodies at the same time ... seems 1 Thessalonians 4 says the dead will RISE first ...

                    1 Thessalonians 4

                    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

                    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
                    ***
                    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                    For You are the God of my salvation;
                    On You I wait all the day.

                    Psalms 25:5
                    ***

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                      Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                      Dead souls do come to life ... not "coming back to life" ... no one is arguing that they are "coming back to life" ... and Revelation 4:20 doesn't talk about "+coming back to life" to then PROVE THAT IS THE BODY ... it talks about the souls coming to life ...

                      Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

                      See no "coming back to life" JUST "souls" "came to life" ... and it doesn't specifically specify that happened AFTER they were beheaded ...
                      Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                      5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

                      Actually though, verse 5 undeniably proves that the sense for 'they lived' in verse 4, is to live again. The text indicates...But the rest of the dead lived not again until...which obviously infers some of the dead have already lived again prior to the finishing of the thousand years, that being the dead in verse 4. Why would the rest of the dead get to live again at some point, but that the dead in verse 4 don't get to as well?

                      If it's not during the first resurrection when those in verse 4 live again, when is it then? It can't be after the thousand years since the text indicates it is only the rest of the dead that live again after the thousand years. Those who have part in the first resurrection, and the rest of the dead, these are 2 entirely different groups. The only thing they have in common is that both groups are initially dead, then both groups live again.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                        Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                        It says the souls came to life ... not the martyrs came back to life ...

                        And so you think a soul can exist without a body?

                        And where does 1 Cor 15 show the dead and alive get our resurrection bodies at the same time ... seems 1 Thessalonians 4 says the dead will RISE first ...

                        1 Thessalonians 4

                        15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

                        16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
                        In order for a soul to come back to life, that requires that the soul has to be dead first. So you are arguing against logic. But since you don't believe in dead souls, why are you then arguing souls come back to life? But there is such a thing as dead bodies though, then they coming back to life. So if anything is coming back to life, it can't be one's soul, it has to be one's body.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                          Originally posted by divaD View Post
                          Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                          5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

                          Actually though, verse 5 undeniably proves that the sense for 'they lived' in verse 4, is to live again. The text indicates...But the rest of the dead lived not again until...which obviously infers some of the dead have already lived again prior to the finishing of the thousand years, that being the dead in verse 4. Why would the rest of the dead get to live again at some point, but that the dead in verse 4 don't get to as well?

                          If it's not during the first resurrection when those in verse 4 live again, when is it then? It can't be after the thousand years since the text indicates it is only the rest of the dead that live again after the thousand years. Those who have part in the first resurrection, and the rest of the dead, these are 2 entirely different groups. The only thing they have in common is that both groups are initially dead, then both groups live again.
                          You agree the second group were not believers right?
                          ***
                          Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                          For You are the God of my salvation;
                          On You I wait all the day.

                          Psalms 25:5
                          ***

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                            Originally posted by divaD View Post
                            In order for a soul to come back to life, that requires that the soul has to be dead first. So you are arguing against logic. But since you don't believe in dead souls, why are you then arguing souls come back to life? But there is such a thing as dead bodies though, then they coming back to life. So if anything is coming back to life, it can't be one's soul, it has to be one's body.
                            We are all dead souls unless we are born from above ... yes? And we are no longer a dead soul when we are born again right? I never said I didn't believe in dead souls ... and our dead bodies do not come back to life ... we get a NEW BODY ... a spiritual body ...
                            ***
                            Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                            For You are the God of my salvation;
                            On You I wait all the day.

                            Psalms 25:5
                            ***

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                              Originally posted by divaD View Post
                              Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                              5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

                              Actually though, verse 5 undeniably proves that the sense for 'they lived' in verse 4, is to live again. The text indicates...But the rest of the dead lived not again until...which obviously infers some of the dead have already lived again prior to the finishing of the thousand years, that being the dead in verse 4. Why would the rest of the dead get to live again at some point, but that the dead in verse 4 don't get to as well?

                              If it's not during the first resurrection when those in verse 4 live again, when is it then? It can't be after the thousand years since the text indicates it is only the rest of the dead that live again after the thousand years. Those who have part in the first resurrection, and the rest of the dead, these are 2 entirely different groups. The only thing they have in common is that both groups are initially dead, then both groups live again.
                              Oh and verse 5 ... not all translations translate it "live again" ...

                              Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.

                              So it does not 'undeniably proves the sense for "they lived" in verse 4, is to live again.'
                              ***
                              Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                              For You are the God of my salvation;
                              On You I wait all the day.

                              Psalms 25:5
                              ***

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                                Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                                We are all dead souls unless we are born from above ... yes? And we are no longer a dead soul when we are born again right? I never said I didn't believe in dead souls ... and our dead bodies do not come back to life ... we get a NEW BODY ... a spiritual body ...
                                But as to souls though, you are meaning spiritually dead rather than literally dead, correct? I am meaning literally dead, in regards to souls. We have to keep in mind that John is seeing the souls of martyrs who have already physically died. And that these martyrs then live and reign with Christ a thousand years. We know the location can't be heaven where they reign with Christ a thousand years. The reason we know that is because years only have relevance to something earthly, and not something in heaven where God dwells instead. There is no such thing as a thousand years in heaven, or even a million years in heaven. Before God created what He did in the beginning there was no such thing as years. Heaven is timeless, it's not reliant on 24 hour cycles, where 360+ of these then equal a full year, etc.

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