Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

MILLENIUM: Future, not present

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Originally posted by Christinme View Post
    Oh and verse 5 ... not all translations translate it "live again" ...

    Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.

    So it does not 'undeniably proves the sense for "they lived" in verse 4, is to live again.'
    Seriously though, if the rest of the dead are all literally physically dead, then they come to life after the thousand years, in what universe is that not the same as living again?

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

      Originally posted by divaD View Post
      But as to souls though, you are meaning spiritually dead rather than literally dead, correct? I am meaning literally dead, in regards to souls. We have to keep in mind that John is seeing the souls of martyrs who have already physically died. And that these martyrs then live and reign with Christ a thousand years. We know the location can't be heaven where they reign with Christ a thousand years. The reason we know that is because years only have relevance to something earthly, and not something in heaven where God dwells instead. There is no such thing as a thousand years in heaven, or even a million yeas in heaven. Before God created what He did in the beginning there was no such thing as years. Heaven is timeless, it's not reliant on 24 hour cycles, where 360+ of these then equal a full year, etc.
      As souls yes I mean spiritually dead ... I don't think a soul can be physically dead, do you???

      Yes I agree he is seeing the souls of martyrs whose physical body has died ... they are in heaven ...

      Is Christ reigning now? From heaven? And if they are there now also why can't they be reigning with him ...

      And well 1000 years does not necessarily mean 1000 earth years ... it can mean an extended time ... do you think there is no concept of time in heaven ... we read of singing in heaven ... how does that happen without time ... and doesn't this take place in heaven and don't we see the concept of time here:

      Revelation 6

      9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

      10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

      11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.





      In revelation 7 and 14 do you take the 144,000 to mean exactly 144,000 or do you take it to have significance past the specific number of 144,000?
      ***
      Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
      For You are the God of my salvation;
      On You I wait all the day.

      Psalms 25:5
      ***

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

        Originally posted by divaD View Post
        Seriously though, if the rest of the dead are all literally physically dead, then they come to life after the thousand years, in what universe is that not the same as living again?
        Could be when their soul comes to life for the first time ...
        ***
        Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
        For You are the God of my salvation;
        On You I wait all the day.

        Psalms 25:5
        ***

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

          Originally posted by Christinme View Post
          I don't think a soul can be physically dead, do you???
          Not prior to the resurrection of the dead can they be physically dead. What might happen to some of the souls after that, that's something that can't be discussed in this forum.

          But if to you, souls, rather than bodies, come to life during the first resurrection, how is one to make sense of that? When a person dies, whether good or wicked, the soul of that person goes somewhere awaiting their bodily resurrection. The point being, even the souls of the lost are still alive when they die. There is no such thing as a soul coming to life after the body has died. All souls would already still be alive, including the souls of the lost.


          Originally posted by Christinme View Post
          do you think there is no concept of time in heaven ... we read of singing in heaven ... how does that happen without time ... and doesn't this take place in heaven and don't we see the concept of time here:

          But not time as in earth years though. If in heaven they go by earth time, which timezone would they be in then? Would they go by Central time, Eastern time, so on and so on?

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

            Originally posted by divaD View Post
            Not prior to the resurrection of the dead can they be physically dead. What might happen to some of the souls after that, that's something that can't be discussed in this forum.

            But if to you, souls, rather than bodies, come to life during the first resurrection, how is one to make sense of that? When a person dies, whether good or wicked, the soul of that person goes somewhere awaiting their bodily resurrection. The point being, even the souls of the lost are still alive when they die. There is no such thing as a soul coming to life after the body has died. All souls would already still be alive, including the souls of the lost.
            Might be better we talk about a soul existing instead of being alive ... a soul being alive means spiritually alive ... a soul being dead means spiritually dead ... just to try to keep ourselves talking the same "language" ...

            I am saying the first resurrection as far as my understanding is when an existing soul that is in a physical body believes and is made alive from above (born again ... born from above ... however you want to refer to such) ... before that the existing soul is dead ...




            Originally posted by divaD View Post
            But not time as in earth years though. If in heaven they go by earth time, which timezone would they be in then? Would they go by Central time, Eastern time, so on and so on?
            But you said "Heaven is timeless" ... and that was your "proof" that they couldn't be reigning in Heaven ... and I never said heaven went by earth time so not sure why you said that ...

            Two questions you didn't respond to were 1) Is Christ reigning NOW from heaven? 2) In revelation 7 and 14 do you take the 144,000 to mean exactly 144,000 or do you take it to have significance past the specific number of 144,000?
            ***
            Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
            For You are the God of my salvation;
            On You I wait all the day.

            Psalms 25:5
            ***

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

              How about this.

              When we are physically born we are bodies and souls are alive but spiritually dead

              When we accept Jesus we ae spiritually alive and reign with Him

              When we physically die unsaved our souls still live but not our bodies

              When we physically die saved our bodies die but our souls still live and we come back to life spiritually

              At the end of our world saved and unsaved receive our new bodies

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                Not prior to the resurrection of the dead can they be physically dead. What might happen to some of the souls after that, that's something that can't be discussed in this forum.

                But if to you, souls, rather than bodies, come to life during the first resurrection, how is one to make sense of that? When a person dies, whether good or wicked, the soul of that person goes somewhere awaiting their bodily resurrection. The point being, even the souls of the lost are still alive when they die. There is no such thing as a soul coming to life after the body has died. All souls would already still be alive, including the souls of the lost.

                When we die, the soul leaves the body. The body dies and takes on corruption and goes back to the dust. The soul of man never dies. Jesus taught us not to fear him who can destroy the body. But to fear him who can destroy both soul and body.

                Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

                Therefore even Satan cannot kill the soul. Only the Lord can kill the soul. Therefore until the Lord destroys the soul, it is alive (both sinners and saints).

                But John saw souls that were beheaded ……. And they lived and reigned with him for a Thousand years. These were not resurrected bodies that John saw. These were souls "living" which were killed.

                Remember when Jesus was crucified? His body was raised on the 3rd day. But what was the status of his soul during those 3 days? Was his soul dead with his body for 3 days? The bible says he was alive and preaching unto the spirits in prison.

                1 Peter 3:
                18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
                19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

                He also told the thief on the cross.
                Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

                Certainly the thief was with Jesus being killed under the Mosaic Law as all others that Christ preached to. Being judged by their works according to the Mosaic law.

                So if the soul can be alive without the body in the 1st resurrections. Jesus is indeed the 1st resurrections. Then why would the rest of the souls that die from that time forth be dead awaiting the resurrections of our bodies? The answer is, our souls are just the same as Jesus and the thief on the cross.

                The soul of man lives forever until Jesus destroys it. Therefore. The souls of the beheaded were souls in Rev 20:4 were awaiting the resurrections of their body. As Paul described below.
                Romans 8:
                21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
                22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
                23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                  Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                  When we die, the soul leaves the body. The body dies and takes on corruption and goes back to the dust. The soul of man never dies. Jesus taught us not to fear him who can destroy the body. But to fear him who can destroy both soul and body.

                  Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

                  Therefore even Satan cannot kill the soul. Only the Lord can kill the soul. Therefore until the Lord destroys the soul, it is alive (both sinners and saints).

                  But John saw souls that were beheaded ……. And they lived and reigned with him for a Thousand years. These were not resurrected bodies that John saw. These were souls "living" which were killed.

                  Remember when Jesus was crucified? His body was raised on the 3rd day. But what was the status of his soul during those 3 days? Was his soul dead with his body for 3 days? The bible says he was alive and preaching unto the spirits in prison.

                  1 Peter 3:
                  18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
                  19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

                  He also told the thief on the cross.
                  Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

                  Certainly the thief was with Jesus being killed under the Mosaic Law as all others that Christ preached to. Being judged by their works according to the Mosaic law.

                  So if the soul can be alive without the body in the 1st resurrections. Jesus is indeed the 1st resurrections. Then why would the rest of the souls that die from that time forth be dead awaiting the resurrections of our bodies? The answer is, our souls are just the same as Jesus and the thief on the cross.

                  The soul of man lives forever until Jesus destroys it. Therefore. The souls of the beheaded were souls in Rev 20:4 were awaiting the resurrections of their body. As Paul described below.
                  Romans 8:
                  21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
                  22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
                  23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
                  Nice post I would add that the souls of both laserus and the rich man were both still living

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                    Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                    It says the souls came to life ... not the martyrs came back to life ...

                    And so you think a soul can exist without a body?

                    And where does 1 Cor 15 show the dead and alive get our resurrection bodies at the same time ... seems 1 Thessalonians 4 says the dead will RISE first ...

                    1 Thessalonians 4

                    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

                    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
                    HI Christinme,

                    Yes a soul can exist without a body.

                    Rev 6 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

                    That occurred before the second coming. It is only at the second coming that the resurrection occurs according to 1 Cor 15: For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

                    Hopefully you can see that the "coming alive" relates to all those in Christ receiving resurrection bodies at the second coming. Sure the dead do get resurrected a moment earlier, but I mean all in Christ get resurrected on that day of the second coming.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                      Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                      When we die, the soul leaves the body. The body dies and takes on corruption and goes back to the dust. The soul of man never dies. Jesus taught us not to fear him who can destroy the body. But to fear him who can destroy both soul and body.

                      Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

                      Therefore even Satan cannot kill the soul. Only the Lord can kill the soul. Therefore until the Lord destroys the soul, it is alive (both sinners and saints).

                      But John saw souls that were beheaded ……. And they lived and reigned with him for a Thousand years. These were not resurrected bodies that John saw. These were souls "living" which were killed.

                      Remember when Jesus was crucified? His body was raised on the 3rd day. But what was the status of his soul during those 3 days? Was his soul dead with his body for 3 days? The bible says he was alive and preaching unto the spirits in prison.

                      1 Peter 3:
                      18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
                      19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

                      He also told the thief on the cross.
                      Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

                      Certainly the thief was with Jesus being killed under the Mosaic Law as all others that Christ preached to. Being judged by their works according to the Mosaic law.

                      So if the soul can be alive without the body in the 1st resurrections. Jesus is indeed the 1st resurrections. Then why would the rest of the souls that die from that time forth be dead awaiting the resurrections of our bodies? The answer is, our souls are just the same as Jesus and the thief on the cross.

                      The soul of man lives forever until Jesus destroys it. Therefore. The souls of the beheaded were souls in Rev 20:4 were awaiting the resurrections of their body. As Paul described below.
                      Romans 8:
                      21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
                      22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
                      23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
                      Well said! Yes the souls of the beheaded were waiting the resurrection of their body. As Rev 20:4 says, these souls then came alive, and reigned with Christ for 1000 years.

                      There are two states of existence in the text, firstly they are the souls of the martyrs (martyred Christians), secondly they come alive at the first resurrection. I feel the text is pretty clear on that.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                        Originally posted by randyk View Post
                        I agree. I would only add that the endtimes scenario involving the 3.5 years of Antichrist, ending with the return of Christ, is exclusively given in Dan 7. It is THE major prophecy that outlines what Revelation explains in Rev 13. It is also the basis for Paul's theology of the Antichrist, mentioned in 2 Thes 2.

                        Daniel makes it very clear that this is *future,* and takes place just prior to the establishment of Christ's Kingdom on earth. I assume the "Kingdom" to be the Milllennium spoken of in Rev 20.
                        Well said. Those who refer to the current kingdom are perfectly correct. We are currently part of the spiritual kingdom of Christ.

                        Yet as you point out, there is a future kingdom. I believe in the future God will extend his kingdom over the leaders of this world, as per Daniel 7, and Rev 11. This future period is what the disciples were referring to when they said "are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" Acts 1

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                          Well said! Yes the souls of the beheaded were waiting the resurrection of their body. As Rev 20:4 says, these souls then came alive, and reigned with Christ for 1000 years.

                          There are two states of existence in the text, firstly they are the souls of the martyrs (martyred Christians), secondly they come alive at the first resurrection. I feel the text is pretty clear on that.
                          Where does it say their souls come alive at the first resurrections? It does not mention anything about a resurrection in verse 4. Only in verse 5 does it say, the 1st resurrection was until the thousand years were finished. This is the 1st resurrection. The souls are already alive and reigning 1000 years prior. Therefore, the 1st resurrection can only be of the dead beheaded body in the ground.

                          So "only" until the 1000 were finished, will there be a 1st resurrection. And yes, the body will come alive then to join the soul.


                          Rev 20:
                          4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                          5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                            Originally posted by Walls View Post
                            Consider what is actually said in Revelation 20:4:

                            "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them (1) that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and (2) for the word of God, and (3) which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither (4) had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
                            1. "that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus" - that is, any Christian from James in Acts 12.2 onward
                            2. "(that were beheaded) for the word of God" - that is, anybody from Abel onward
                            3. "(that were beheaded) which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads" - that is, Christian or non-Christian who refused the Beast, his image and his mark. Scripture does NOT say "those BELIEVERS which ... ," or "those CHRISTIANS which ... ."

                            This verse covers ANYBODY who was killed for upholding God's word in the whole history of man, Christians killed since the time of Christ, and objectors to the Beast killed in the last 3.5 years of the age. Thus Luke 13:28, in predicting who will be in the Millennial Kingdom, says,

                            "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."

                            But I do agree that the kings and thrones are future to us.
                            Yes there's definitely truth in what you say. Although I do believe the verse emphasizes the end times martyrs during the 3.5 years of the beast and image of the beast, certainly there will be a wider scope of the participants in the first resurrection.

                            I believe all Christians throughout the ages will be included in that first resurrection,

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                              Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                              Well, I understand your viewpoint.

                              However, it does not say that they "are dead" and then they "lived". This would be rearranging the text into something that you merely imply, but is not directly stated.

                              It plainly says, the souls that were beheaded..... lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Therefore was before the resurrection of their bodies because they were beheaded and they were merely souls. Their souls is what lived while awaiting the resurrection of their body.

                              I love how apostle Paul explains it.
                              Romans 8:
                              21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
                              22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
                              23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
                              The souls of dead men abide in Hades until resurrection (Act.2:28-31). So for these men to reign they must be part of a resurrection (Rev.20:5). Resurrection is always to do with the body. See 1st Corinthians 15:35. It is the "beheaded" BODIES that "lived". The soul of man also has a recovery process but it is not resurrection. It is TRANSFORMATION. In 1st Peter 1:3-9 we see the whole process of salvation.

                              3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
                              4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
                              5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
                              6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
                              7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
                              8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
                              9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

                              • Verse 3 shows the rebirth. We are "begotten of God"
                              • Verse 4 gives the reason for rebirth. The Millennial Kingdom is our inheritance (Jn.3:3-5; Gal.3:29; Rom.4:13)
                              • Verse 5 shows the resurrection - the salvation of our bodies at the end of the age
                              • Verse 6 to 7 shows that our faith must be matured, refined and tried. Faith is an issue of the soul - what we believe
                              • Verse 9 shows the result of the rials by fire and much heaviness - the salvation of the soul.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                                Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                                Where does it say their souls come alive at the first resurrections? It does not mention anything about a resurrection in verse 4. Only in verse 5 does it say, the 1st resurrection was until the thousand years were finished. This is the 1st resurrection. The souls are already alive and reigning 1000 years prior. Therefore, the 1st resurrection can only be of the dead beheaded body in the ground.

                                So "only" until the 1000 were finished, will there be a 1st resurrection. And yes, the body will come alive then to join the soul.


                                Rev 20:
                                4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                                5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
                                Okay I see how you are reading it. I see it the way some bibles have presented it, with the rest of the dead being a parenthesis:

                                They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

                                I see that way of reading the text as having more clarity, with those who come alive and reign for 1000 years in verse 4 being the same as those of the first resurrection who reign with Christ for 1000 years in v6.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X