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  • #46
    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Originally posted by Walls View Post
    The souls of dead men abide in Hades until resurrection
    This was a time period before Christ arose from the dead. The soul of man was destined to hell and had no way to be redeemed from Hades. Except for their Messiah Jesus, in which they all awaited the time of his coming.

    David prayed for his soul not to be left in Hell, or the body of the Holy One not to see corruption. He said, I know my redeemer liveth.

    Job said, even though the skin worms devour my flesh and my reigns be consumed within me, yet in my flesh will I see God. I shall behold him with my eyes and lo, not another, though my reigns be consumed within me.

    So yes, the souls of men were trapped around the earth and in Hades or the grave, until Christ arose. The souls of the dead in Hades were resurrected when Christ rose. As well as our souls who die from this time forward until the day of our bodily resurrection.

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    • #47
      Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
      Okay I see how you are reading it. I see it the way some bibles have presented it, with the rest of the dead being a parenthesis:

      They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

      I see that way of reading the text as having more clarity, with those who come alive and reign for 1000 years in verse 4 being the same as those of the first resurrection who reign with Christ for 1000 years in v6.
      Keep in mind. There is only one (1000 year period). The 2 groups; (beheaded souls and the rest of the dead which lived not again) were both confined within "the same" 1000 year period.

      And the 1st resurrection was until after the 1000 years were finished for both groups.

      These are key facts, regardless how confusing the surrounding verses may present themselves.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

        Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
        This was a time period before Christ arose from the dead. The soul of man was destined to hell and had no way to be redeemed from Hades. Except for their Messiah Jesus, in which they all awaited the time of his coming.

        David prayed for his soul not to be left in Hell, or the body of the Holy One not to see corruption. He said, I know my redeemer liveth.

        Job said, even though the skin worms devour my flesh and my reigns be consumed within me, yet in my flesh will I see God. I shall behold him with my eyes and lo, not another, though my reigns be consumed within me.

        So yes, the souls of men were trapped around the earth and in Hades or the grave, until Christ arose. The souls of the dead in Hades were resurrected when Christ rose. As well as our souls who die from this time forward until the day of our bodily resurrection.
        That's just it. Acts 2 shows David still dead, buried and in Hades 50 days after Christ's resurrection (Act.2:29, 34). Only Christ is loosed from Hades at His resurrection. A few hours AFTER Christ, a group of known Old Testament saints were resurrected and appeared in Jerusalem (Matt.27:52-53). David was not one of them. Yet Jeremiah 30:9 promises David resurrection to rule Israel when Christ comes. So David will only be resurrected at the end of the age. You too, and me also.

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        • #49
          Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

          Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
          Keep in mind. There is only one (1000 year period). The 2 groups; (beheaded souls and the rest of the dead which lived not again) were both confined within "the same" 1000 year period.

          And the 1st resurrection was until after the 1000 years were finished for both groups.

          These are key facts, regardless how confusing the surrounding verses may present themselves.


          To me its just too clear that those who reign for 1000 years in v4 are the same people as those of v6 who are blessed and share in the first resurrection and also reign for 1000 years. They being the same people, it's only the rest of the dead who wait for the end of the 1000 years.

          So we will have to disagree on this, the resurrection of the martyrs occurs at the beginning of the millennium before the 1000 years starts, not the end of the millennium.

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          • #50
            Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            That's just it. Acts 2 shows David still dead, buried and in Hades 50 days after Christ's resurrection (Act.2:29, 34). Only Christ is loosed from Hades at His resurrection. A few hours AFTER Christ, a group of known Old Testament saints were resurrected and appeared in Jerusalem (Matt.27:52-53). David was not one of them. Yet Jeremiah 30:9 promises David resurrection to rule Israel when Christ comes. So David will only be resurrected at the end of the age. You too, and me also.
            Peter was speaking regarding David's prayer. In vs 26, his heart did rejoice over the fact that his flesh shall rest in hope. Because he will not leave his soul in hell. So yes, his body was still in the grave at the time of Peter in Acts, but his soul was not left in hell. His soul was raised with Christ when he arose 40 days later. Not when he arose on the 3rd day.

            Acts 2:
            24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
            25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
            26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
            27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
            28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
            29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
            30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
            31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
            32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
            33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
            34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
            35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
              So we will have to disagree on this, the resurrection of the martyrs occurs at the beginning of the millennium before the 1000 years starts, not the end of the millennium.
              No, not the physical resurrection. There are 2 resurrections mentioned here. Being born again being the one referred to in vs 6. Remember? Christ is the 1st resurrections. This is merely saying, that those in vs 4 are blessed because they have part in Christ and died in the faith. This is freeing to being born again as the 1st resurrections, being the spiritual resurrection. On such, the 2nd death hath no power. The natural resurrection of the body is until after the 1000 years are finished.

              This is the book of Revelation. Some things are not so clearly written and will make you pull out your hair when certain verses seem to not come together so crystal clear.

              But there is only one (1000 year) period of the saints and sinners. There is only one natural resurrection and a spiritual one for the beheaded who reigned with Christ. They are blessed to have part in the 1st resurrection.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                Might be better we talk about a soul existing instead of being alive ... a soul being alive means spiritually alive ... a soul being dead means spiritually dead ... just to try to keep ourselves talking the same "language" ...

                I am saying the first resurrection as far as my understanding is when an existing soul that is in a physical body believes and is made alive from above (born again ... born from above ... however you want to refer to such) ... before that the existing soul is dead ...
                The context of Rev 20 describes 2 groups. The second group is called "the rest of the dead". Meaning the martyrs are the dead, if the others are the rest of the dead.

                But we both agree their souls are not dead, so when these dead come alive this is a clear reference to the bodily resurrection of these saved souls, their shoukd are already alive. .

                And according to 1 Cor 15, it as at the second coming when both the dead and alive will get our resurrection bodies.

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                • #53
                  Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                  Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                  No, not the physical resurrection. There are 2 resurrections mentioned here. Being born again being the one referred to in vs 6. Remember? Christ is the 1st resurrections. This is merely saying, that those in vs 4 are blessed because they have part in Christ and died in the faith. This is freeing to being born again as the 1st resurrections, being the spiritual resurrection. On such, the 2nd death hath no power. The natural resurrection of the body is until after the 1000 years are finished.

                  This is the book of Revelation. Some things are not so clearly written and will make you pull out your hair when certain verses seem to not come together so crystal clear.

                  But there is only one (1000 year) period of the saints and sinners. There is only one natural resurrection and a spiritual one for the beheaded who reigned with Christ. They are blessed to have part in the 1st resurrection.
                  It cannot be the way you describe it here. The souls of the martyrs are by definition already saved (martyrs die for their faith). They can't get saved again, they are already saved.

                  Even 1 Cor 15 associates coming alive with our bodily resurrection at the second coming.

                  The word resurrection applies exclusively to bodies resurrecting, not salvation.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                    Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                    No, not the physical resurrection. There are 2 resurrections mentioned here. Being born again being the one referred to in vs 6. Remember? Christ is the 1st resurrections. This is merely saying, that those in vs 4 are blessed because they have part in Christ and died in the faith. This is freeing to being born again as the 1st resurrections, being the spiritual resurrection. On such, the 2nd death hath no power. The natural resurrection of the body is until after the 1000 years are finished.

                    This is the book of Revelation. Some things are not so clearly written and will make you pull out your hair when certain verses seem to not come together so crystal clear.

                    But there is only one (1000 year) period of the saints and sinners. There is only one natural resurrection and a spiritual one for the beheaded who reigned with Christ. They are blessed to have part in the 1st resurrection.
                    Let me say this, it doesn't really matter if you believe in a premil or amil position regarding salvation being concerned. But the other books of the bible doesn't support a premil position.

                    Such as 2 Thess 1 & 2, where Paul puts the general resurrection of the saints and sinners in one day. Paul repeats over and over, "In that day".

                    So do other scriptures that says some will raise unto everlasting glory and some to everlasting shame and contempt in Daniel 12:2.

                    Jesus gave a parable to let the tares grow with the wheat to be gathered in the harvest and the tares to be burned. All these point to one event and not 1000 years apart.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                      It cannot be the way you describe it here. The souls of the martyrs are by definition already saved (martyrs die for their faith). They can't get saved again, they are already saved.

                      Even 1 Cor 15 associates coming alive with our bodily resurrection at the second coming.

                      The word resurrection applies exclusively to bodies resurrecting, not salvation.
                      Not saved again. But saved while they lived. They were saved before they were beheaded. Therefore, they were partakers in Christ. They had part in the 1st Resurrection. They were in Christs body

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                        It cannot be the way you describe it here. The souls of the martyrs are by definition already saved (martyrs die for their faith). They can't get saved again, they are already saved.

                        Even 1 Cor 15 associates coming alive with our bodily resurrection at the second coming.

                        The word resurrection applies exclusively to bodies resurrecting, not salvation.
                        Let me clarify. Verse 6 refers to Christ resurrection and not our resurrection. Christ body is the 1st resurrection from the dead. He is the 1st resurrection referred to in verse 6.

                        It says, "Blessed is he who hath part in the 1st Resurrection", is referring to the saints beheaded being a part of resurrections of Christ. On such the 2nd death hath no power. Because we belong to Christ and will be with him at the general resurrection of the dead. Which is until the 1000 years have finished, being after the 1000 year period.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                          Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                          No, not the physical resurrection. There are 2 resurrections mentioned here. Being born again being the one referred to in vs 6. Remember? Christ is the 1st resurrections. This is merely saying, that those in vs 4 are blessed because they have part in Christ and died in the faith. This is freeing to being born again as the 1st resurrections, being the spiritual resurrection. On such, the 2nd death hath no power. The natural resurrection of the body is until after the 1000 years are finished.

                          This is the book of Revelation. Some things are not so clearly written and will make you pull out your hair when certain verses seem to not come together so crystal clear.

                          But there is only one (1000 year) period of the saints and sinners. There is only one natural resurrection and a spiritual one for the beheaded who reigned with Christ. They are blessed to have part in the 1st resurrection.
                          Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

                          Verse 6 makes it crystal clear. I am surprised you are not seeing it. Notice what this verse says.


                          Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection....and shall reign with him a thousand years.

                          Since, like you pointed out, there is only one 1000 thousand year period and 2 resurrections in ch 20, how can those of the first resurrection reign with Christ a thousand years if the first resurrection is not even until the thousand years expire? How can that not be a contradiction? How can they reign with Christ a thousand years after the thousand years have expired? How is that even logical?

                          Is there anywhere the text ever indicates that rest of the dead, who live not again until the thousand years expire, live and reign with Christ a thousand years? No.

                          Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                          5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
                          6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

                          The correct way to understand this passage would be like such.

                          And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished(the 2nd resurrection).

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                            Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                            Let me clarify. Verse 6 refers to Christ resurrection and not our resurrection. Christ body is the 1st resurrection from the dead. He is the 1st resurrection referred to in verse 6.

                            It says, "Blessed is he who hath part in the 1st Resurrection", is referring to the saints beheaded being a part of resurrections of Christ. On such the 2nd death hath no power. Because we belong to Christ and will be with him at the general resurrection of the dead. Which is until the 1000 years have finished, being after the 1000 year period.
                            I never saw this post before I submitted my last one. And after reading your post here, I do somewhat see some logic to what you are proposing here, yet I still think you are incorrect though.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                              Originally posted by divaD View Post
                              Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

                              Verse 6 makes it crystal clear. I am surprised you are not seeing it. Notice what this verse says.


                              Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection....and shall reign with him a thousand years.

                              Since, like you pointed out, there is only one 1000 thousand year period and 2 resurrections in ch 20, how can those of the first resurrection reign with Christ a thousand years if the first resurrection is not even until the thousand years expire? How can that not be a contradiction? How can they reign with Christ a thousand years after the thousand years have expired? How is that even logical?

                              Is there anywhere the text ever indicates that rest of the dead, who live not again until the thousand years expire, live and reign with Christ a thousand years? No.

                              Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                              5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
                              6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

                              The correct way to understand this passage would be like such.

                              And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished(the 2nd resurrection).

                              Just because the verse states they shall reign with him a thousand years, and then places this segment at the end of the sentence does not mean it had to have occurred afterward.

                              Keep in mind, it is separated with the conjunction "and".

                              It would be the same truth as saying, "the church had a bake sale and before they sold to the public, the preacher said a prayer over the food." It would have the same meaning and still be truthful to say, "The church had a bake sale, and the preacher prayed over the food." If you were there, then you would have known the prayer was before they sold to the public and would not think otherwise.

                              The "and" does not place the time event after the 1st resurrection. It merely states that "and shall reign with him a thousand years". Does not signify order of events.

                              Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                                Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                                Let me clarify. Verse 6 refers to Christ resurrection and not our resurrection. Christ body is the 1st resurrection from the dead. He is the 1st resurrection referred to in verse 6.

                                It says, "Blessed is he who hath part in the 1st Resurrection", is referring to the saints beheaded being a part of resurrections of Christ. On such the 2nd death hath no power. Because we belong to Christ and will be with him at the general resurrection of the dead. Which is until the 1000 years have finished, being after the 1000 year period.
                                It has been so long since I have discussed this … how you describe it here is how I understand it and really you did a much better job than me trying to explain it.
                                ***
                                Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                                For You are the God of my salvation;
                                On You I wait all the day.

                                Psalms 25:5
                                ***

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