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  • Discussion MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    When Rev 20 mentions a period of martyrdom by the beast, some like to place this event into history, but the 5th seal of Rev 6:9-11 is clear the martyrdom is completed in end-times context. We can also be confident that the period of persecution is during the last 3.5 years of this age due to the following verses:

    In Rev 13 there is a beast given a mouth who comes to power amid deceiving signs and wonders. He is a boastful leader and has 42 months of authority and persecution of Christians (Rev 13:5-8). Some doubt he is destroyed at the second coming, yet in Rev 19 this is when the beast is destroyed, at the second coming (Rev 19:11-20). We have this confirmed in 2 Thess 2 when the man of sin is also a boastful leader, also comes to power amid deceiving signs and wonders , and is also destroyed at the second coming, a strong overlap with Rev 13. Which reminds us of Daniel 7, at the end of the world there is a boastful leader who rules for 3.5 years, persecutes the saints, and is destroyed at the time the world's kingdoms and leaders obey the Most High.

    We therefore have strong biblical evidence that the beast's reign of war and martyrdom against the church occurs for the final 3.5 years of this world. The mention of the mark of the beast and image of the beast is also in that same 42 months context of Rev 13, these are great tribulation events. This places the 1000 years of Rev 20 AFTER the 3.5 years of persecution by the beast:
    And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


    I underlined the MARK, because that is also mentioned in other chapters, always in end-times context:
    In Rev 14 the mark is mentioned in a chapter that deals with the fall of Babylon, burning sulfur, God's wrath, and the final harvests at the end of the age.
    In Rev 16 the mark and the image of the beast are mentioned in context of the bowls of wrath at the end of the age.

    Therefore there are many reasons to place the martyrs of Rev 20 in specifically the context of the great tribulation at the end of this age, a 3.5 year persecution period involving specifically the mark of the beast, and the image of the beast, and martyrdom of the saints. This is when the 1000 year period starts.

  • #2
    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
    When Rev 20 mentions a period of martyrdom by the beast, some like to place this event into history, but the 5th seal of Rev 6:9-11 is clear the martyrdom is completed in end-times context. We can also be confident that the period of persecution is during the last 3.5 years of this age due to the following verses:

    In Rev 13 there is a beast given a mouth who comes to power amid deceiving signs and wonders. He is a boastful leader and has 42 months of authority and persecution of Christians (Rev 13:5-8). Some doubt he is destroyed at the second coming, yet in Rev 19 this is when the beast is destroyed, at the second coming (Rev 19:11-20). We have this confirmed in 2 Thess 2 when the man of sin is also a boastful leader, also comes to power amid deceiving signs and wonders , and is also destroyed at the second coming, a strong overlap with Rev 13. Which reminds us of Daniel 7, at the end of the world there is a boastful leader who rules for 3.5 years, persecutes the saints, and is destroyed at the time the world's kingdoms and leaders obey the Most High.

    We therefore have strong biblical evidence that the beast's reign of war and martyrdom against the church occurs for the final 3.5 years of this world. The mention of the mark of the beast and image of the beast is also in that same 42 months context of Rev 13, these are great tribulation events. This places the 1000 years of Rev 20 AFTER the 3.5 years of persecution by the beast:
    And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


    I underlined the MARK, because that is also mentioned in other chapters, always in end-times context:
    In Rev 14 the mark is mentioned in a chapter that deals with the fall of Babylon, burning sulfur, God's wrath, and the final harvests at the end of the age.
    In Rev 16 the mark and the image of the beast are mentioned in context of the bowls of wrath at the end of the age.

    Therefore there are many reasons to place the martyrs of Rev 20 in specifically the context of the great tribulation at the end of this age, a 3.5 year persecution period involving specifically the mark of the beast, and the image of the beast, and martyrdom of the saints. This is when the 1000 year period starts.
    I agree. I would only add that the endtimes scenario involving the 3.5 years of Antichrist, ending with the return of Christ, is exclusively given in Dan 7. It is THE major prophecy that outlines what Revelation explains in Rev 13. It is also the basis for Paul's theology of the Antichrist, mentioned in 2 Thes 2.

    Daniel makes it very clear that this is *future,* and takes place just prior to the establishment of Christ's Kingdom on earth. I assume the "Kingdom" to be the Milllennium spoken of in Rev 20.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
      When Rev 20 mentions a period of martyrdom by the beast, some like to place this event into history, but the 5th seal of Rev 6:9-11 is clear the martyrdom is completed in end-times context. We can also be confident that the period of persecution is during the last 3.5 years of this age due to the following verses:

      In Rev 13 there is a beast given a mouth who comes to power amid deceiving signs and wonders. He is a boastful leader and has 42 months of authority and persecution of Christians (Rev 13:5-8). Some doubt he is destroyed at the second coming, yet in Rev 19 this is when the beast is destroyed, at the second coming (Rev 19:11-20). We have this confirmed in 2 Thess 2 when the man of sin is also a boastful leader, also comes to power amid deceiving signs and wonders , and is also destroyed at the second coming, a strong overlap with Rev 13. Which reminds us of Daniel 7, at the end of the world there is a boastful leader who rules for 3.5 years, persecutes the saints, and is destroyed at the time the world's kingdoms and leaders obey the Most High.

      We therefore have strong biblical evidence that the beast's reign of war and martyrdom against the church occurs for the final 3.5 years of this world. The mention of the mark of the beast and image of the beast is also in that same 42 months context of Rev 13, these are great tribulation events. This places the 1000 years of Rev 20 AFTER the 3.5 years of persecution by the beast:
      And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


      I underlined the MARK, because that is also mentioned in other chapters, always in end-times context:
      In Rev 14 the mark is mentioned in a chapter that deals with the fall of Babylon, burning sulfur, God's wrath, and the final harvests at the end of the age.
      In Rev 16 the mark and the image of the beast are mentioned in context of the bowls of wrath at the end of the age.

      Therefore there are many reasons to place the martyrs of Rev 20 in specifically the context of the great tribulation at the end of this age, a 3.5 year persecution period involving specifically the mark of the beast, and the image of the beast, and martyrdom of the saints. This is when the 1000 year period starts.
      Well, how nice that we have agreement here.

      I would just add the scriptural truths about what happens to the Christian peoples during that final 3 1/2 years, 42 months, 1260 days.
      Revelation 12:6-17 describes this time. The faithful Christians will be taken to a place of safety on earth, Revelation 12:6 & 14, but those Christians who violated the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, must remain, Zechariah 14:2, Revelation 12:17
      It will be from that second group of Christians, that most of the martyrs come from. The first group will be gathered by the angels when Jesus Returns. Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thess 4:17

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

        Hey, I also agree this is in the future. What a time that will be when the final 3.5 years rolls out! Wow!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
          When Rev 20 mentions a period of martyrdom by the beast, some like to place this event into history, but the 5th seal of Rev 6:9-11 is clear the martyrdom is completed in end-times context. We can also be confident that the period of persecution is during the last 3.5 years of this age due to the following verses:

          In Rev 13 there is a beast given a mouth who comes to power amid deceiving signs and wonders. He is a boastful leader and has 42 months of authority and persecution of Christians (Rev 13:5-8). Some doubt he is destroyed at the second coming, yet in Rev 19 this is when the beast is destroyed, at the second coming (Rev 19:11-20). We have this confirmed in 2 Thess 2 when the man of sin is also a boastful leader, also comes to power amid deceiving signs and wonders , and is also destroyed at the second coming, a strong overlap with Rev 13. Which reminds us of Daniel 7, at the end of the world there is a boastful leader who rules for 3.5 years, persecutes the saints, and is destroyed at the time the world's kingdoms and leaders obey the Most High.

          We therefore have strong biblical evidence that the beast's reign of war and martyrdom against the church occurs for the final 3.5 years of this world. The mention of the mark of the beast and image of the beast is also in that same 42 months context of Rev 13, these are great tribulation events. This places the 1000 years of Rev 20 AFTER the 3.5 years of persecution by the beast:
          And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


          I underlined the MARK, because that is also mentioned in other chapters, always in end-times context:
          In Rev 14 the mark is mentioned in a chapter that deals with the fall of Babylon, burning sulfur, God's wrath, and the final harvests at the end of the age.
          In Rev 16 the mark and the image of the beast are mentioned in context of the bowls of wrath at the end of the age.

          Therefore there are many reasons to place the martyrs of Rev 20 in specifically the context of the great tribulation at the end of this age, a 3.5 year persecution period involving specifically the mark of the beast, and the image of the beast, and martyrdom of the saints. This is when the 1000 year period starts.
          Consider what is actually said in Revelation 20:4:

          "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them (1) that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and (2) for the word of God, and (3) which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither (4) had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
          1. "that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus" - that is, any Christian from James in Acts 12.2 onward
          2. "(that were beheaded) for the word of God" - that is, anybody from Abel onward
          3. "(that were beheaded) which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads" - that is, Christian or non-Christian who refused the Beast, his image and his mark. Scripture does NOT say "those BELIEVERS which ... ," or "those CHRISTIANS which ... ."

          This verse covers ANYBODY who was killed for upholding God's word in the whole history of man, Christians killed since the time of Christ, and objectors to the Beast killed in the last 3.5 years of the age. Thus Luke 13:28, in predicting who will be in the Millennial Kingdom, says,

          "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."

          But I do agree that the kings and thrones are future to us.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            "(that were beheaded) which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads" - that is, Christian or non-Christian who refused the Beast, his image and his mark. Scripture does NOT say "those BELIEVERS which ... ," or "those CHRISTIANS which ... ."
            Why would a non Christian be doing that though, then allow themselves to be killed for not doing that?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

              Originally posted by Walls View Post
              Consider what is actually said in Revelation 20:4:

              "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them (1) that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and (2) for the word of God, and (3) which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither (4) had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
              1. "that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus" - that is, any Christian from James in Acts 12.2 onward
              2. "(that were beheaded) for the word of God" - that is, anybody from Abel onward
              3. "(that were beheaded) which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads" - that is, Christian or non-Christian who refused the Beast, his image and his mark. Scripture does NOT say "those BELIEVERS which ... ," or "those CHRISTIANS which ... ."

              This verse covers ANYBODY who was killed for upholding God's word in the whole history of man, Christians killed since the time of Christ, and objectors to the Beast killed in the last 3.5 years of the age. Thus Luke 13:28, in predicting who will be in the Millennial Kingdom, says,

              "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."

              But I do agree that the kings and thrones are future to us.
              I totally agree with you regarding all (3) categories of the souls of them (1) that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and (2) for the word of God, and (3) which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither (4) had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."[/I]

              This is Excellent in the way you specify some as:
              "any Christian from James in Acts 12.2 onward"
              "anybody from Abel onward"
              "Christian or non-Christian who refused the Beast, his image and his mark"

              But notice they reign with Christ 1000 years. This is evidence that the 1000 year period is prior to the 2nd coming. This puts the 1000 year period beginning; as early as the resurrection of Jesus.

              Again, Great post!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                Why would a non Christian be doing that though, then allow themselves to be killed for not doing that?
                For TWO reasons
                1. The history of mankind is liberally laced with men who were morally opposed to things but were not Christians. For instance, many prominent German men and women opposed Hitler - a died for it.
                2. Scripture says in Revelation 20:4; "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." "They", "them" and "their" are all-encompassing terms. And this becomes more valid when one realizes that the Christians, far from resisting the Beast, are "OVERCOME" by the Beast (Rev.13:7). If we insert Christians for "them" we would be (1) adding to scripture, and (2) adding something unreasonable.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                  Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                  "Christian or non-Christian who refused the Beast, his image and his mark"

                  But notice they reign with Christ 1000 years. This is evidence that the 1000 year period is prior to the 2nd coming. This puts the 1000 year period beginning; as early as the resurrection of Jesus.
                  And the fact they reign with Christ a thousand years because they had not worshiped the beast, proves they were Christians, and not non Christian instead. There is no such thing as a non Christian reigning with Christ a thousand years, thus why I asked Walls what I did in my prev post.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                    Originally posted by Walls View Post
                    For TWO reasons
                    1. The history of mankind is liberally laced with men who were morally opposed to things but were not Christians. For instance, many prominent German men and women opposed Hitler - a died for it.
                    2. Scripture says in Revelation 20:4; "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." "They", "them" and "their" are all-encompassing terms. And this becomes more valid when one realizes that the Christians, far from resisting the Beast, are "OVERCOME" by the Beast (Rev.13:7). If we insert Christians for "them" we would be (1) adding to scripture, and (2) adding something unreasonable.
                    Those that do not worship the beast are then rewarded with reigning with Christ a thousand years. A non Christian would be an unbeliever. There won't be any unbelievers reigning with Christ a thousand years. There will be non Christians Christ and His saints will be ruling over during the thousand years though, but that's not the same as them reigning along side of Christ.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                      Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                      I totally agree with you regarding all (3) categories of the souls of them (1) that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and (2) for the word of God, and (3) which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither (4) had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."[/I]

                      This is Excellent in the way you specify some as:
                      "any Christian from James in Acts 12.2 onward"
                      "anybody from Abel onward"
                      "Christian or non-Christian who refused the Beast, his image and his mark"

                      But notice they reign with Christ 1000 years. This is evidence that the 1000 year period is prior to the 2nd coming. This puts the 1000 year period beginning; as early as the resurrection of Jesus.

                      Again, Great post!
                      Thank you for your kind words. The way I see it is thus; The resurrection of Christians is when Christ "comes" (1st Cor.15:23, 1st Thess.4:13-18). The 1,000 years, if ruled by these men and women, can only start AFTER Christ comes. The men and women of Revelation 20:4 are dead, and then "they lived" - indicating resurrection.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                        Originally posted by divaD View Post
                        Those that do not worship the beast are then rewarded with reigning with Christ a thousand years. A non Christian would be an unbeliever. There won't be any unbelievers reigning with Christ a thousand years. There will be non Christians Christ and His saints will be ruling over during the thousand years though, but that's not the same as them reigning along side of Christ.
                        You have a very good argument. May I answer it thus.

                        The gospel of Jesus Christ presents Jesus as Savior for sinful men. This is what it preached for 2,000 years. On this basis a man becomes a Christian. But the last 3.5 years are a CONTEST between the Messiah God has promised, and the Messiah that the Dragon offers. It is the CONTEST between just TWO MEN. And the Lord Jesus Himself PROMISED, in Mark 9:40-41;

                        40 "For he that is not against us is on our part.
                        41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward."


                        That is, any man or woman who is NOT FOR the Beast in the last 3.5 years is AUTOMATICALLY FOR CHRIST.

                        Now, we have proof that certain NON-Christians do this because in Revelation 12 the one seed of the woman is in heaven and cannot preach the gospel, and the "remainder" of her seed, "who have the testimony of Jesus", and who are "OVERCOME" by the Beast flee to a place. And this Woman is "helped by the earth" - not God (v.14-16).

                        What think ye of this?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                          I am not a frequent visitor to this section of the forum ... although I have posted here some in the past. My understanding leans more amil/postmil ... so yea I believe the Millenium is present ...

                          Concerning Revelation 20:4 ... the coming to life is what I believes happens when one is born again ... before that one is dead ... although I would assume everyone here understands that is amil/postmil understanding ...
                          ***
                          Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                          For You are the God of my salvation;
                          On You I wait all the day.

                          Psalms 25:5
                          ***

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                            Originally posted by Walls View Post
                            Thank you for your kind words. The way I see it is thus; The resurrection of Christians is when Christ "comes" (1st Cor.15:23, 1st Thess.4:13-18). The 1,000 years, if ruled by these men and women, can only start AFTER Christ comes. The men and women of Revelation 20:4 are dead, and then "they lived" - indicating resurrection.
                            Well, I understand your viewpoint.

                            However, it does not say that they "are dead" and then they "lived". This would be rearranging the text into something that you merely imply, but is not directly stated.

                            It plainly says, the souls that were beheaded..... lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Therefore was before the resurrection of their bodies because they were beheaded and they were merely souls. Their souls is what lived while awaiting the resurrection of their body.

                            I love how apostle Paul explains it.
                            Romans 8:
                            21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
                            22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
                            23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

                              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                              Therefore there are many reasons to place the martyrs of Rev 20 in specifically the context of the great tribulation at the end of this age, a 3.5 year persecution period involving specifically the mark of the beast, and the image of the beast, and martyrdom of the saints. This is when the 1000 year period starts.
                              I think the martyrdom of the saints began with the martyrdom of the apostles ... and well aren't they alive NOW ... just as Jesus Christ is alive NOW ...
                              ***
                              Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                              For You are the God of my salvation;
                              On You I wait all the day.

                              Psalms 25:5
                              ***

                              Comment

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