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  • #16
    Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

    Originally posted by Walls View Post
    Revelation 13:7 does not indicate death but DOMINION. Ephesians Chapter 6 gives a battle in which no one dies, but in which one or another principality rules because of strength. So this verse cannot be used to show annihilation by any means. And seeing as Revelation 12 gives those with the testimony of Jesus fleeing and being helped by the earth, and Revelation 7 gives this huge crowd as having passed through the Great Tribulation, annihilation is certainly not even hinted at.
    Eph 6 speaks of a spiritual war, rev 13 is physical war. rev 12 the woman is fleeing not the people. Rev 7 are those which have died. Now back to Rev 13.

    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    I guess you could say the saints raised the white flag and were defeated a hard fought battle. But then they would be prisoners and still would not receive the mark would they? hence death would come one way or another, right?

    But then you draw a conclusion that all who took the mark and worshiped the Beast and his image are slaughtered by the Lord at His coming. But for THIS you give NO scripture. The scripture that applies here does not allude or even hint at slaughter.
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;
    12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

    There are too many to list.

    They are caused to enter the Lake of Fire. This they do ALIVE, and their torment never ends. Revelation 14:9-11 says;
    I do not see a reference where unbelievers are cast "alive" into the lake of fire. There is a reference to the beast and false prophet. You are assuming "alive" means living. Everyone is resurrected and upon resurrection and made alive again for judgement. Some to everlasting life and some everlasting contempt. even the beast and FP are killed and resurrected for judgement. Alive is the state upon being resurrected not nessesairly "living" upon the earth.

    I Cor 15
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    Dan 12
    2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


    But even more exact than this speculative number is the Judgement of Christ over the NATIONS in Matthew 25:31-46. This guarantees a huge hoard of ALL nations still alive after Armageddon.
    Matt 25
    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    The nations here are gathered per resurrection to be judged. This is also a picture of the GWT not some separate judgement of those living on earth at a time when Christ returns. And again those nations of the earth at the second coming are killed.

    Zech 14
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;
    12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

      Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
      First you can't be resurrected unless you die. So 1 Cor 15 speaks of a resurrection of the dead not living. Mat 24? Concerning 1 Thess 4 "those which are alive and remain" are those dead made alive upon the resurrection and remain (ie left) as the others have been cast away.



      Can you post those verses?
      Alive believers will be transformed on the day that the dead receive their resurrection bodies. Living Believers will definitely be around on that day, this is what Paul had to say in 1 Thess 4 :
      the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

      So your view that all believers shall die, is contradicted by 1 Thess 4.

      Here are some verses that indicate that the earth will not be destroyed (the same places still exist, and unsaved nations still exist)

      Zech 14 refers to the surviving nations, these nations are under strict rule and perform sacrifices and so cannot be saved surviving nations

      Isaiah 65 refers to blessed Israel, the inhabitants having long mortal life-spans. They are mortal and so cannot be resurrected survivors.

      Rev 2 refers to shepherding the nations with an iron rod, they cannot be saved nations, we are not ruled with such strictness. They are also not destroyed, because the word "shepherded" (not destroyed) is used.
      Rev 19 also refers to shepherding the nations with an iron rod after the second coming.

      Zech 13 refers to the next age when there is no prophecy, and how false prophets will be killed then. The mortality and false prophets in the next age point to unsaved survivors.

      Ezekiel 44 refers to ritual cleansing related to dead bodies, showing mortality in the next age.

      Ezekiel 47 refers to places like Arabah, En Gedi, En Eglaim, the Dead Sea in the next age. These places are still there.

      Ezekiel 47 also refers to the new tribal allocations for the 12 tribes of Israel in this future age of Israels peace. About 20 place names are recorded there, to assign tribal borders in the next age.

      In Joel 3, the future destiny of the regions of Edom, Judah, Egypt and Mt Zion are mentioned.

      Isaiah 34 has a very detailed description of the future destiny of Edom in a new age.

      Ezekiel 48 names further borders in this new age of blessing for the tribes on Israel. Eg the Wadi of Egypt still exists in this future age.


      Zech 12 describes the clans of Israel in the land, still there after the destruction at the great final war against Israel.


      Biblical prophecy has a strong precedent of being precisely and literally fulfilled eg prophecy about attacking armies of the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Romans.

      Even though the Bible does emphasize the first advent, even so we still had the Roman War fulfilled literally, we shall still have the northern army/Gog attack fulfilled literally. And after that final war multiple verses describe the continuation of planet earth, with mortal people and precise surviving regions. There is just too much detail to ascribe this all to symbolism.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

        [QUOTE=DurbanDude;3559178]
        Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
        Alive believers will be transformed on the day that the dead receive their resurrection bodies. Living Believers will definitely be around on that day, this is what Paul had to say in 1 Thess 4 :
        the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
        16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
        17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

        The alive and remain are those dead in Christ resurrected. We are made "alive" upon the resurrection. No one can be taken up unless you have died first.

        21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
        22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
        23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

        36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:



        Here are some verses that indicate that the earth will not be destroyed (the same places still exist, and unsaved nations still exist)

        Zech 14 refers to the surviving nations, these nations are under strict rule and perform sacrifices and so cannot be saved surviving nations
        The chapter states all nations are killed!

        Zech 14
        2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;

        12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

          Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

          16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
          17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

          The alive and remain are those dead in Christ resurrected. We are made "alive" upon the resurrection. No one can be taken up unless you have died first.

          21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
          22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
          23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

          36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:





          The chapter states all nations are killed!

          Zech 14
          2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;

          12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
          As per the quote, some Christians will be physically alive at the second coming. It says nothing about physically dying at that moment. Your quote about all dying in Adam isn't referring to the second coming. It's referring to the mortality of the body.

          And regarding that war in Israel, many verses indicate that there shall be a complete destruction of the attacking armies. This shouldn't be applied to everyone on earth.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

            Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
            As per the quote, some Christians will be physically alive at the second coming.
            This verse is widely misinterpreted. Paul is speaking to the crowd knowing quite well he well be dead before the second coming and part of the dead in Christ and tells them WE upon the resurrection will be made ALIVE from the dead and not to worry we will be caught up together with them whom already passed and are in the grave.

            16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
            17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

            The alive and remain are those dead in Christ resurrected. We are made "alive" upon the resurrection. No one can be taken up unless you have died first.

            Your quote about all dying in Adam isn't referring to the second coming. It's referring to the mortality of the body.
            The verse speaks of the resurrection and states the fact we all physically die. Death has reigned from Adam.(no living to be whisked away). But in Christ we shall be physically made ALIVE. Paul states this happens at the coming of Christ.

            21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
            22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
            23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

            Note there must have been many like yourself during this day thinking there were some who might not die. But Paul states this....

            6 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:


            And regarding that war in Israel, many verses indicate that there shall be a complete destruction of the attacking armies. This shouldn't be applied to everyone on earth.
            The attacking armies are the only ones on the earth at this time. He shall gather all nations, all nations on earth are aligned with the beast as those opposing haven been eliminated.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
              Rev 6
              12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
              13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind

              Same event in Matt 24
              29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
              30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

              So then are you saying that between verses 29 and 30 in Matt 24 that events between Rev 6 up till Rev 16 all occur? I do think so. Both Rev 6 and Rev 16 culminate in the same day.



              Does not mean they can't be a fire roasted delight
              You shouldn't show your confused beliefs quite so plainly and silly comments just detract from yourself.

              The enemies of the Lord will be burnt to ashes at the Sixth Seal. Malachi 4:3 At Jesus Return, fire is not used and the carrion birds feast on the bodies.

              The 2 verses you quote obviously are about two different events. The context of them proves it, let alone the different state of the moon.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                Zech 14
                2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;

                12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

                So all nations are gathered and all people are consumed so there can be no know one left "living".

                14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem;

                So then does Judah survive and enter mortally into a 1000 year reign? No.

                The word "left" does not necessarily mean "living. I understand our minds first interpret such however when taken in context "left" would mean "believers remaining upon the resurrection" while all others being cast away. Nobody survives the first death but can survive, left, remain upon the second.

                Now of course some may reply there is no Feast of Tabernacles in eternity thus proving it must be a millennium. But then that takes us back the millennium debate.
                What we need to do first is to try and put Zech 14 in chronological order. Maybe like such.

                Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

                2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

                13*And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

                14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

                3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

                4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

                5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

                12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

                15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

                6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

                7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

                8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

                9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

                10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

                11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

                16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

                17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

                18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

                19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

                20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

                21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

                That's my proposed chronology. If you have a better proposed chronology, then submit it, I would be interested in looking at it.

                Assuming this proposed chronology works, verse 5 involves the 2nd coming. Verses 16-19 are post the 2nd coming then, like I have been arguing all along. Because of what verse 12 says you then conclude there are no survivors, period. But it's only meaning of the ones that came against Jerusalem. Nations obviously have vast amounts of people living in these nations. Not every single person living in these nations would be coming against Jerusalem, thus why there can be survivors. But as to the ones that came against Jerusalem, no survivors among any of them. The text in verse 12 makes it clear that it is only meaning those that have fought against Jerusalem, that the LORD will smite with this plague. That obviously can't include anyone living among these nations who don't even fight against Jerusalem.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                  Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                  This verse is widely misinterpreted. Paul is speaking to the crowd knowing quite well he well be dead before the second coming and part of the dead in Christ and tells them WE upon the resurrection will be made ALIVE from the dead and not to worry we will be caught up together with them whom already passed and are in the grave.

                  16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
                  17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

                  The alive and remain are those dead in Christ resurrected. We are made "alive" upon the resurrection. No one can be taken up unless you have died first.



                  The verse speaks of the resurrection and states the fact we all physically die. Death has reigned from Adam.(no living to be whisked away). But in Christ we shall be physically made ALIVE. Paul states this happens at the coming of Christ.

                  21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
                  22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
                  23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

                  Note there must have been many like yourself during this day thinking there were some who might not die. But Paul states this....

                  6 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:




                  The attacking armies are the only ones on the earth at this time. He shall gather all nations, all nations on earth are aligned with the beast as those opposing haven been eliminated.
                  If the attacking armies include everyone, why are some in bed or grinding grain:
                  Luke 17:34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left

                  The army will be huge, but will not include everyone.

                  As for your quotes about us dying, our old self dies at salvation, and as we grow in Christ we die to our selfish nature. I believe you are applying those verses incorrectly to Christians at the resurrection.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                    Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                    Since many incorrectly believe there is a literal 1000 years after the coming of our Lord then they need to devise how the world will be populated. Hence they say some will survive the second coming and then enter in the 1000 year reign with Christ. What do the scriptures say and why is it impossible for any to survive?

                    All the saints are first overcome by the beast
                    Wrong. Paul disagrees with you:

                    1Th_4:15* For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.





                    Thus the only ones remaining at this time upon the earth are the ungodly whom all will be killed upon Christ's return.
                    And that isn't scriptural. There are many nations which survive to be ruled over according to Rev 19 and 20. And not only are they alive during the thousand years, when it ends Satan will go to them and deceive them and they will be killed for the first time at Jerusalem.


                    Luke 17
                    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
                    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
                    It's not wise to quote something that shows a small localized killed of certain wicked people. God did not kill all the wicked in the world that day nor does he kill everyone at the second coming.



                    NHNE occurs upon Christ's return

                    2 PT 3
                    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
                    No, that is speaking of a non-literal "day". Rev 21 tells us the NHNE happens after the thousand years and after the GWTJ and the LOF.


                    Christ comes as a flame of fire which will ignite this oil filled earth upon his return. Nothing living survives!
                    Except so many people they are as many as the sands of the sea whom Christ rules over with a rod of iron.

                    Rev 20:7* And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,*
                    Rev 20:8* And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.*
                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                      Originally posted by divaD View Post
                      What we need to do first is to try and put Zech 14 in chronological order. Maybe like such.

                      Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

                      2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

                      13*And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

                      14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

                      3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

                      4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

                      5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

                      12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

                      15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

                      6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

                      7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

                      8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

                      9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

                      10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

                      11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

                      16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

                      17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

                      18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

                      19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

                      20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

                      21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

                      That's my proposed chronology. If you have a better proposed chronology, then submit it, I would be interested in looking at it.

                      Assuming this proposed chronology works, verse 5 involves the 2nd coming. Verses 16-19 are post the 2nd coming then, like I have been arguing all along. Because of what verse 12 says you then conclude there are no survivors, period. But it's only meaning of the ones that came against Jerusalem. Nations obviously have vast amounts of people living in these nations. Not every single person living in these nations would be coming against Jerusalem, thus why there can be survivors. But as to the ones that came against Jerusalem, no survivors among any of them. The text in verse 12 makes it clear that it is only meaning those that have fought against Jerusalem, that the LORD will smite with this plague. That obviously can't include anyone living among these nations who don't even fight against Jerusalem.
                      Your breakdown makes sense, but a simpler approach is that v12 to v15 are just various aside comments about how the attacking armies will be plundered and destroyed.

                      The rest of the chapter is in consecutive order.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                        Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                        Since many incorrectly believe there is a literal 1000 years after the coming of our Lord then they need to devise how the world will be populated. Hence they say some will survive the second coming and then enter in the 1000 year reign with Christ. What do the scriptures say and why is it impossible for any to survive?
                        I understand why Amills see passages that state "ALL will be destroyed" and conclude that no one survives. Taken as a isolated sentence without any grammatical historical context, this would seal their case. However, as is often the case, the term "ALL" in the bible can also mean "many" or "majority". It does NOT always mean "total". For example, in Mark, the gospel records that "ALL" of Judea and Jerusalem went out to be baptized by John.


                        Mar 1:4-5* John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. *(5)* Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.

                        If we were to use the same standard for the term "ALL" in Luke that Amills use for the eschatological uses of the term "ALL", then we must conclude that EVERY SINGLE HUMAN IN JUDEA and JERUSALEM were baptized by John. This would be preposterous as we know from scriptures that many did not get baptized by John such as the Pharisees and Herod. John's usage of the term "all" simply means "a great many" or "majority".


                        Below I give a few examples in scripture that demand that continuation of mortal survivors after the transition of this age into the next. I also give a few questions that Amills are going to need to answer in a logical way without violating the normal use of grammar or substituting well established literal terms for an arbitrary allegorical definitions that would have been utterly foreign to the original audience. If they cannot do this, then there is no way we will ever abandon the premillennial ship.


                        [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
                        Mortal Survivors After the 2nd Coming

                        Isaiah 66:15-19
                        Isa 66:15-19 For behold, the LORD will come in fire And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. (16) For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on all flesh, And those slain by the LORD will be many. ... (18) "For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory. (19) "I will set a sign among them and will send survivors from them to the nations: Tarshish, Put, Lud, Meshech, Tubal and Javan, to the distant coastlands that have neither heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations.

                        In context, Isaiah is speaking of the transition period to the New Heaven and New Earth. In verse 15, it specifically states that Jesus will come in chariots of fire and “judge all flesh”. AFTER this, the Lord sends out “SURVIVORS” (BBE says “those still alive”) to the NATIONS to tell those “WHO HAVE NOT HEARD” about Christ’s fame. Then Isaiah list specific nations that continue to exist (Tarshish, Put, Lud, Meshech, Tubal, Javan, and distant coastlands, and JERUSALEM).

                        QUESTIONS AMILLS NEED TO ANSWER FROM ISAIAH 66:


                        1. Who are the Survivors AFTER He comes in Fire?
                        2. Who are the nations that “have not heard of (Christ’s) fame AFTER He comes in Fire?
                        3. What do those known geographical nations and people represent?


                        ISAIAH 65:17-23

                        Isa 65:17-23 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. (18) But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy. (19) I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying. (20) "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. (21) They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. (22) They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. (23) They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them.

                        The context is clear that this is happening during the New Heaven and New earth. During this time, Isaiah says that there will be men still “dying, sin, be accursed, and many will still be procreating in child birth”. Isaiah says that natural processes such as “planting vineyards, building houses” will be happening and there will still be both “young and old” people living.


                        QUESTIONS AMILLS NEED TO ANSWER FROM ISAIAH 65:

                        1.
                        Who are the people that are dying and can be accursed sinners, die and be accursed in the NHNE?

                        2. Who are the people “planting vineyards and building houses” in the NHNE?
                        3. Who are the young and the old in the NHNE?

                        EZEKIEL 36:22-28

                        Eze 36:22-38 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name's sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. (23) And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD," says the Lord GOD, "when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. (24) For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. (25) Then I will sprinkle clean water on you ,and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. (26) I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. (27) I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. (28) Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. (29) I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. (30) And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. (31) Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. (32) Not for your sake do I do this," says the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!" (33) 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also enable you to dwell in the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt. (34) The desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by. (35) So they will say, 'This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.' (36) Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the LORD, have spoken it, and I will do it." (37) 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "I will also let the house of Israel inquire of Me to do this for them: I will increase their men like a flock. (38) Like a flock offered as holy sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem on its feast days, so shall the ruined cities be filled with flocks of men. Then they shall know that I am the LORD." ' "

                        Ezekiel prophesied about the coming of the Holy Spirit given under the New Covenant with the House of Israel in Eze 36:25-27. Since amills believe this to be the 1st coming, please notice the remainder of the chapter. Ezekiel then prophesies that Jerusalem shall be inhabited and “REBUILT”. At a minimum, this requires that the rebuilding of Jerusalem happens after the first coming. This eliminates the prophecy from referring to the return from Babylon in 535BC, but rather means there would be a rebuilding after the 1stComing. This ensures a place for the physical city of Jerusalem to be restored after 70AD. The ONLY PLACE this fits is in an eschatological scenario. Then it says “the NATIONS WHICH ARE LEFT all around you shall know that I, the Lord have rebuilt the ruined places…”.


                        QUESTIONS AMILLS NEED TO ANSWER FROM EZEKIEL 36:

                        1.
                        Who are the “NATIONS THAT ARE LEFT” after the 2ndcoming when Christ restored Jerusalem



                        ZECHARIAH 14:1-19

                        Zec 14:1-19 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. (2) For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (3) Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. (4) And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. (5) Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with Him. (6) It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. (7) It shall be one day Which is known to the LORD Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. (8) And in that day it shall be—That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. (9) And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be "The LORD is one," And His name one. (10) All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin's Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's winepresses. (11) The people shall dwell in it; And no longer shall there be utter destruction, But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. (12) And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. (13) It shall come to pass in that day That a great panic from the LORD will be among them. Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor, And raise his hand against his neighbor's hand; (14) Judah also will fight at Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the surrounding nations Shall be gathered together: Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance. (15) Such also shall be the plague On the horse and the mule, On the camel and the donkey, And on all the cattle that will be in those camps. So shall this plague be. (16) And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. (17) And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts ,on them there will be no rain. (18) If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. (19) This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


                        The context of Zec 14 is the “DAY OF THE LORD”. Amills usually agree that this term refers to the 2
                        nd coming. If normal language means anything, then this chapter describes a great battle is then described with events that have never happened before in history. In fact, Zec 14:5 is quoted in the NT as happening at the 2nd
                        coming. After this battle, Zechariah specifically states that there will be “NATIONS WHICH ARE LEFT”. He even describes that some of these nations could be disobedient and not come the feasts and therefore receive a plague on their land.


                        QUESTIONS AMILLS NEED TO ANSWER FROM ZECHARIAH 14:

                        1. Who are the “nations which are left” AFTER the Day of the Lord?

                        EARLY CHURCH TESTIMONY:

                        Lastly, the testimony of the Earliest Church Fathers believed that mortals would exist during millennium. Though this is secondary to the bible, many of these men where directly connect to the Apostles teaching and they were entrusted with the church’s care upon the apostles departure. Many of the men stated that their teachings were handed down directly from the apostles and Christ. The evidence that this was the apostolic teaching handed down from Christ and His apostles is much stronger than the amillenial idea that all mortals die at the 2nd coming.

                        Ireneaus Against Heresies Book 5
                        “If, however, any shall endeavour to allegorize [prophecies of ISAIAH 65-66] of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points, and shall be confuted by the teaching of the very expressions [in question]. For example: “When the cities” of the Gentiles “shall be desolate, so that they be not inhabited, and the houses so that there shall be no men in them and the land shall be left desolate.” (Isa_6:11) “For, behold,” says Isaiah, “the day of the Lord cometh past remedy, full of fury and wrath, to lay waste the city of the earth, and to root sinners out of it.” (Isa_13:9) And again he says, “Let him be taken away, that he behold not the glory of God.” (Isa_26:10) And when these things are done, he says, “God will remove men far away, and those that are left shall multiply in the earth.” (Isa_6:12) “And they shall build houses, and shall inhabit them themselves: and plant vineyards, and eat of them themselves.” (Isa_65:21) For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation ,as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: “And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth,” And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it”

                        Lactantius Divine Institutes Book 7
                        “…during those thousand years shall produce an infinite multitude, and their offspring shall be holy, and beloved by God; but they who shall be raised from the dead shall preside over the living as judges. But the nations shall not be entirely extinguished, but some shall be left as a victory for God, that they may be the occasion of triumph to the righteous”[/QUOTE]

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                          Originally posted by The Beginner View Post
                          QUESTIONS AMILLS NEED TO ANSWER FROM ISAIAH 66:

                          [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
                          1. Who are the Survivors AFTER He comes in Fire?
                          2. Who are the nations that “have not heard of (Christ’s) fame AFTER He comes in Fire?
                          3. What do those known geographical nations and people represent?
                          17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.
                          18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

                          We saw in verse 17 those opposing the Lord are consumed. Now we move to verse 18 and notice the bolded...."it shall come". So then there is gathering of all nations? How can this be when he just consumed them? Thus this gathering is speaking of the gathering at judgement time of the dead not the living upon the earth! Hence those which escape are those which have been resurrected and escape the second dearth. The survivors are those of the second death, no mortals.

                          In eternity (I guess would also have to be the case in a supposed millennium) there is procreation. Hence there will be witnessing in eternity as is the case today.

                          QUESTIONS AMILLS NEED TO ANSWER FROM ISAIAH 65:

                          1.[/SIZE][/FONT] Who are the people that are dying and can be accursed sinners, die and be accursed in the NHNE?[/COLOR]
                          2. Who are the people “planting vineyards and building houses” in the NHNE?
                          3. Who are the young and the old in the NHNE?

                          EZEKIEL 36:22-28
                          So we need to have faith that as scriptures states the setting is a NHNE. So this question has no bearing on mortals in some 1000 year reign.


                          QUESTIONS AMILLS NEED TO ANSWER FROM EZEKIEL 36:

                          1.[/SIZE][/FONT] Who are the “NATIONS THAT ARE LEFT” after the 2ndcoming when Christ restored Jerusalem[/COLOR]
                          [FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]
                          36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the Lord build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the Lord have spoken it, and I will do it.

                          The heathen left are not speaking of living unbelievers which somehow escaped death but rather the heathen which have been cast into the LOF which are still able to see the goings on in eternity

                          QUESTIONS AMILLS NEED TO ANSWER FROM ZECHARIAH 14:

                          1. Who are the “nations which are left” AFTER the Day of the Lord?
                          [FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]

                          Again these nations are left, ie remain after the resurrection.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                            [QUOTE]
                            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                            Wrong. Paul disagrees with you:

                            1Th_4:15* For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
                            The alive and remain are those dead in Christ resurrected. We are made alive after resurrection and remain as all others are cast away. Paul agrees.

                            21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
                            22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
                            23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.



                            It's not wise to quote something that shows a small localized killed of certain wicked people. God did not kill all the wicked in the world that day nor does he kill everyone at the second coming.
                            Understand the world population is localized at the time of the second coming. Wars, plaques have decreased the population. Not to mention 1/4 killed Rev 6 and then another 1/3 during trumpets. For survival the only place that can sustain life is the woman in Rev 17. Notice the waters (people) have gathered round about. So at the time of Christ there will be no one living here in the USA as it will be a wilderness and no one will survive long.


                            No, that is speaking of a non-literal "day". Rev 21 tells us the NHNE happens after the thousand years and after the GWTJ and the LOF.
                            You know many scriptures state otherwise. Only rev 20 is in conflict thus Rev 20 must mean something else. Like the 1000 years is not a literal reign on earth.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                              17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.
                              18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

                              We saw in verse 17 those opposing the Lord are consumed. Now we move to verse 18 and notice the bolded...."it shall come". So then there is gathering of all nations? How can this be when he just consumed them? Thus this gathering is speaking of the gathering at judgement time of the dead not the living upon the earth! Hence those which escape are those which have been resurrected and escape the second dearth. The survivors are those of the second death, no mortals.

                              In eternity (I guess would also have to be the case in a supposed millennium) there is procreation. Hence there will be witnessing in eternity as is the case today.
                              I’m fine with your interpretation of the “survivors” in this passage. However, the mortals are clearly spoken of in the next sentence as “those who have not heard” about Christ.

                              It appears you are mixing up the groups being spoken of here…

                              You just indicated that those being “gathered” are the same group as those “who have escaped” which you state are the resurrected ones. However, the actual passage separates the groups.. In CONTEXT, those “who have escaped” are being sent out to “GATHER” those “who NEVER HEARD” about Christ.

                              How can there be no mortal survivors after the 2nd coming when the passage clearly teaches that there is a group of people “who have NEVER HEARD” of Christ being gathered to Him?

                              Secondly, how can you hold the position that “in eternity” there will be procreation and people needing to hear the gospel if at the same time you suggest there can be no mortals? You would have to believe that children will be born immortal even before they accept Christ. Are you suggesting that a person who is unregenerate “can put on immortality” even prior to their conversion? What happens if they refuse to be converted?

                              Also, Christ was very clear that those who are apart of the resurrection will not be given in marriage (Matt 22:30). So who is having babies in your opinion if there are no mortals on the earth and resurrected saints are not given in marriage?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                                Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                                So we need to have faith that as scriptures states the setting is a NHNE. So this question has no bearing on mortals in some 1000 year reign.
                                Actually, the historic premillennial position (Chiliasm) that was held by the earliest Church fathers and is held by many post tribulation premillennialist today adheres the belief that the NHNE begins at the 2nd coming. The “renewed land and renewed Sky” happens at the 2nd coming and the Millennium is simply the first 1,000 years of this eternal kingdom. Many adhere that there will be a second renewal of the sky and land after the thousand years as well. This seems to be in perfect harmony with Peter who indicated that the renewal of the land and sky has happened multiple times, such as after the flood (2 Pet 3). Thus, we can harmonize passages like Isaiah 65 perfectly with the presence of mortal attributes such as “death, being accursed, etc” with the time period under the NHNE. So your actually going to need to exegete the passages on this because they clearly show mortal people existing in the next age…

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