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  • #46
    Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

    Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
    As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

    Does it really look like the tares are burned up some 1000 years later? Of course not.
    You make a valid point. So let's forget what I concluded as a possibility. Back to the drawing board then.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

      Originally posted by divaD View Post
      You make a valid point. So let's forget what I concluded as a possibility. Back to the drawing board then.
      So you think the evil people of the world are cast into the LOF at the second coming? I don't. Clearly that happens "some 1000 years later" as per Rev 20.
      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
        So you think the evil people of the world are cast into the LOF at the second coming? I don't. Clearly that happens "some 1000 years later" as per Rev 20.
        In my view the tares are not even meaning the evil people of the world, as in all of the lost combined. They are meaning the goats in Matt 25, who I take to mean the unprofitable servants of Christ. In the agricultural world tares resemble wheat in the early stages, at least according to articles I read in the past. So this would be the sheep and goats judgment. That judgment occurs at the 2nd coming, but is not meaning the GWTJ. In that judgment the goats are already judged and sentenced. So why would they later be raised in the GWTJ then be judged and sentenced yet again?

        The following are a collection of commentaries on this subject that I just found via google, if you care to give any of it a read.

        https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm...res-Wheat-.htm

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

          Originally posted by divaD View Post
          That judgment occurs at the 2nd coming, but is not meaning the GWTJ. In that judgment the goats are already judged and sentenced. So why would they later be raised in the GWTJ then be judged and sentenced yet again?
          Can you entertain that the sheep and goat judgement is the same as the GWT? Why not?

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

            Here are some things to consider in the Parable of the Tares:

            Our Lord Jesus explained the Parable. In verse 24 our Lord said that it was "like" the Kingdom of Heaven. In verse 11 the Lord sais these Parables revealed the 2mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven. So this Parable does not concern the Judgement of the Nations. It concerns the internal mechanism of the Kingdom of Heaven. So we have to establish; what and when is the Kingdom of Heaven. A Kingdom is a sphere or area where a certain king is able to enforce His will. The Kingdom of Heaven is when a heavenly King has the power to enforce His will. Our Lord Jesus was, and will be able to enforce His will - the rules of heaven - THREE TIMES
            1. When He cast out demons in Israel. Luke 11:20 says; "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you." But the King was rejected and murdered, so He withdraws His offer to Israel
            2. In the Church. In both Matthew 16 and 18, our Lord had the keys to the Kingdom. But they are only given to Believers to execrcise on other believers. Ananias, Saphira, the incestuous brother of 1st Corinthians 5, the sick and dead of 1st Corinthians 11 and Alexander the copper smith, all felt the power of the Kingdom. So also John who reports in Revelation 1:9a; "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, ... ."
            3. When He returns and smashed Gentile rule to pieces and sets up His everlasting Kingdom on earth (Dan.2:44; Rev.11:15, 19:15-16, 20:4)

            The Parable of the Tares falls under point #2 - the time when only the Church is Christ's sphere of rule. The Wheat is those who are "seed" sown by Jesus. The Tares are the "seed" sown by the Devil. Tares look like wheat until the last moment before the harvest. Thus, the Parable of the Tares concerns COUNTERFEIT CHRISTIANS. They are people who look like they belong to the Kingdom within the Church, but because of their ORIGIN, will eventually produce poison - the fruit of the Tare. The Parable of the Tares is about those who look exactly like the Church, but are not so by birth. There is only one entity during the Church age that looks like Christianity, but is not because they do do not have the new birth. It is the Roman Catholic Church. It has the names, customs, trappings and Biblical repertoire of the Church, and is even populated with some true Christians. But it is a COUNTERFEIT. It is "LIKE" the Kingdom, but not the Kingdom.

            The judgement of the COUNTERFEIT Church is NOT the judgement of the NATIONS. Notice the sequence of judgement in the Parables when our Lord Jesus explained it. The Tares are gathered FIRST. If it was the Nations they would be gathered AFTER the Church. The Church is gathered to the sky BEFORE Jesus arrives on earth, but the NATIONS are gathered AFTER Christ has set up His throne on earth (Matt.25:31-32). And so we must turn to Revelation 17 to find who is judged BEFORE the Church - the Great Whore, who is a City on seven hills, who has the blood of Christ's martyrs and who fornicated with the kings of the earth - ROME (Rev.17:16-18). And the reason why she is judged BEFORE the Church is because she stood in the way of universal worship for the Beast. Roman Catholics make up 1.3 billion presently. They form the second largest single religion on earth. Unlike Islam, the largest singe religion with 1.6 billion adherents, Rome is financially and politically powerful. And she exercises her power in the name of Jesus - the direct OPPOSITION to the Beast.

            So, before the Beast can demand, and command, universal worship, Rome must go. The COUNTERFEIT Kingdom of Jesus will be destroyed BEFORE the Church is judged. But there is another twist to the tale. In the explanation of the Parable, notice that something else happens AFTER the Tares are harvested. In Matthew 13:40-43 we find the Tares dealt with in verse 40. "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this AGE." But then, with the Tares dealt with, verse 41 suddenly shows a new activity. "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity." Now suddenly it is ANOTHER COMPANY which are removed. It is not the "seed of the Devil" that is removed. That has already been done in verse 40. It is they who "offend" and who are "workers of iniquity". The criteria has changed. The Tares were counterfeit. That is, they never actually belonged to the Kingdom of Christ. They were only "LIKE" the kingdom. But now we have those "WHO WILL BE GATHERED OUT OF HIS KINGDOM"!

            To be gathered out of Christ's Kingdom, a man must first be IN IT! And the criteria is not of what seed you are. The criteria is; DID YOU OFFEND, and/or DID YOU WORK INIQUITY - totally different criteria to being seed of the Devil? Who is in the kingdom but is cast out for INIQUITY? Why, those who cast out demons and did wondrous works in Jesus's Name in Matthew 7:21-23! Mark 16:17 says that casting out demons is a SIGN of a Christian! Satan would never cast out his own, for then his kingdom would not stand (Matt.12:26). The OFFENDERS and the WORKERS of INIQUITY are the slothful, sinful, lukewarm Christians who are not worthy of, nor qualified, to be part of Christ's Millennial Kingdom - point #3 above, which is set up when Christ comes. They not only will be burned (1st Cor.3:13-15), but they are CONTRASTED to the "RIGHTEOUS" - not "the seed of the Devil". The end of the Parable deals with a second judgement at the end of the AGE - that of the Christians (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10).

            Where then, in the Parables of the Kingdom in Matthew 13, do we find the judgement of the NATION. Why, that is easy. The NATIONS, who are designated "the sea" in parable (Isaiah 9:1, 17:12, Ezekiel 26:3-5, etc.), are found in verses 47-49.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

              Originally posted by Walls View Post

              The judgement of the COUNTERFEIT Church is NOT the judgement of the NATIONS. Notice the sequence of judgement in the Parables when our Lord Jesus explained it. The Tares are gathered FIRST. If it was the Nations they would be gathered AFTER the Church. The Church is gathered to the sky BEFORE Jesus arrives on earth, but the NATIONS are gathered AFTER Christ has set up His throne on earth (Matt.25:31-32). And so we must turn to Revelation 17 to find who is judged BEFORE the Church - the Great Whore, who is a City on seven hills, who has the blood of Christ's martyrs and who fornicated with the kings of the earth - ROME (Rev.17:16-18). And the reason why she is judged BEFORE the Church is because she stood in the way of universal worship for the Beast. Roman Catholics make up 1.3 billion presently. They form the second largest single religion on earth. Unlike Islam, the largest singe religion with 1.6 billion adherents, Rome is financially and politically powerful. And she exercises her power in the name of Jesus - the direct OPPOSITION to the Beast.

              .
              Much of what you wrote in this post I would be in agreement with you about, except for maybe parts of what I have quoted above. And since you clearly grasp who the tares are meaning, I'm somewhat surprised you are not grasping who the goats are meaning in Matt 25. What was Jesus just talking about leading up to that judgment? Wasn't He talking about professed servants of His, where some were profitable, and some were unprofitable? But you do have some good arguments in the above quotes though, but still, the context leading up to the sheep and goats judgment involves professed servants of Christ, profitable ones and unprofitable ones. It therefore would not be unreasonable to think that the main focus of the sheep and goats judgment has to do with professed servants of Christ, where the sheep would represent the profitable servants, and the goats, the unprofitable servants. BTW, I am not alone in my thinking on that. There are plenty of others who see it similar. Maybe not on this board though, but elsewhere there is.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                In my view the tares are not even meaning the evil people of the world, as in all of the lost combined. They are meaning the goats in Matt 25, who I take to mean the unprofitable servants of Christ. In the agricultural world tares resemble wheat in the early stages, at least according to articles I read in the past. So this would be the sheep and goats judgment. That judgment occurs at the 2nd coming, but is not meaning the GWTJ. In that judgment the goats are already judged and sentenced. So why would they later be raised in the GWTJ then be judged and sentenced yet again?

                The following are a collection of commentaries on this subject that I just found via google, if you care to give any of it a read.

                https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm...res-Wheat-.htm
                There are two harvests in Rev 14. The first sounds like the resurrection. The second strangely has an exact location:
                The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city

                The location is outside Jerusalem, which curiously is the same location as Jehosaphat in Joel 3, where God judges the nations.

                Quite simply, the saved are resurrected, and a large proportion of the worlds warlike males are completely destroyed in the final war. These are the tares, gathered for slaughter to Jerusalem.

                In addition the worst behaving nations are wiped out completely at the second coming (eg Edom). This leaves a more peaceful DNA to repopulate the earth, the less aggressive elements from the better nations are the survivors. With Satan in the pit, and the saints judging and ruling, the net effect is a far more peaceful world than today.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                  The parable of the sheep and goats also proves no one populates a millennial kingdom.

                  So some say that there are some of the nation left ie survive living on the earth upon the second coming to enter into the millennial kingdom. Well test this logic.

                  We see all nations (though it means all dead not living) we will go with the thought they are living on the earth. The ungodly at the moment are cast into the LOF not 1000 years later so they do not survive. And they do not depart and wait 1000 years then to be cast into the LOF. And then the godly inherit the kingdom from the foundation of the world so surely this does not mean some temporary millennial kingdom.

                  So who is left to populate a millennial kingdom? Nobody.


                  31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
                  32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
                  33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
                  34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

                  Is the millennial kingdom what they inherit? They inherit a temporary reign whereby now they have to do it all over again? Of course not.

                  41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

                  They depart and then wait 1000 years to be cast into the fire. Of course not.


                  So when other text say those who were "left" are those which survive the second death and remain.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                    Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                    The parable of the sheep and goats also proves no one populates a millennial kingdom.

                    So some say that there are some of the nation left ie survive living on the earth upon the second coming to enter into the millennial kingdom. Well test this logic.

                    We see all nations (though it means all dead not living) we will go with the thought they are living on the earth. The ungodly at the moment are cast into the LOF not 1000 years later so they do not survive. And they do not depart and wait 1000 years then to be cast into the LOF. And then the godly inherit the kingdom from the foundation of the world so surely this does not mean some temporary millennial kingdom.

                    So who is left to populate a millennial kingdom? Nobody.


                    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
                    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
                    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
                    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

                    Is the millennial kingdom what they inherit? They inherit a temporary reign whereby now they have to do it all over again? Of course not.

                    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

                    They depart and then wait 1000 years to be cast into the fire. Of course not.


                    So when other text say those who were "left" are those which survive the second death and remain.

                    You are still ignoring Zech 14:16-19 then. We can't act as if that's not in the Bible or something. It's clearly in the Bible, and it is clearly meaning post the 2nd coming.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                      These are the tares, gathered for slaughter to Jerusalem.
                      The logic is this though. Tares resemble wheat in the early stages. That means they have to resemble what the wheat represents. The wheat does not represent men of war in any sense, but represent the sheep, IOW Christians.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                        Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                        Can you entertain that the sheep and goat judgement is the same as the GWT? Why not?
                        The goats don't represent the lost as a whole. In the GWTJ the lost as a whole are in focus there. All one has to do is note how the goats answer Christ. Only professed servants would answer Christ in that manner. Atheists for sure wouldn't, and neither would satanists, nor witches, so on and so on.

                        Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
                        42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
                        43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
                        44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

                        Verse 44 reminds me of something like such.

                        Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
                        22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
                        23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

                        No way are any of these meaning atheists, nor satanists, nor witches, so on and so on. No these are meaning professed servants of Christ.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                          Originally posted by divaD View Post
                          The logic is this though. Tares resemble wheat in the early stages. That means they have to resemble what the wheat represents. The wheat does not represent men of war in any sense, but represent the sheep, IOW Christians.
                          There is logic to what you say. But I believe the wording favors a worldwide split, instead of just within the church:


                          He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

                          The reason I say men at war, is the final war is specifically described as a harvest /gathering of the wicked. This isn't any old war, but specifically a gathering of the most wicked.

                          Rev 14 Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia

                          Joel 3 Come quickly, all you nations from every side,
                          and assemble there.
                          Bring down your warriors, Lord! Let the nations be roused;
                          let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat,
                          for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side.
                          13 Swing the sickle for the harvest is ripe.
                          Come, trample the grapes, for the winepress is full
                          and the vats overflow—so great is their wickedness!”


                          Rev 14, outside the city. Joel 3, the valley of Jehosaphat is outside the city. This is where the harvest and winepress occurs.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                            Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                            There is logic to what you say. But I believe the wording favors a worldwide split, instead of just within the church:


                            He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

                            The reason I say men at war, is the final war is specifically described as a harvest /gathering of the wicked. This isn't any old war, but specifically a gathering of the most wicked.

                            Rev 14 Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia

                            Joel 3 Come quickly, all you nations from every side,
                            and assemble there.
                            Bring down your warriors, Lord! Let the nations be roused;
                            let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat,
                            for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side.
                            13 Swing the sickle for the harvest is ripe.
                            Come, trample the grapes, for the winepress is full
                            and the vats overflow—so great is their wickedness!”


                            Rev 14, outside the city. Joel 3, the valley of Jehosaphat is outside the city. This is where the harvest and winepress occurs.
                            If I recall correctly, even you are on record saying there are many judgments, rather than just one judgment, that being the GWTJ. Why would the sheep and goats judgment even have to be the same judgment as you submitted above? If we think outside the box for a moment, in regards to the sheep and goats judgment, why might the text be indicating all nations are gathered, if it only involves professed servants of Christ like I am proposing? When Christ returns, where will all of His professed servants be found? Would they not be found throughout all the nations on the earth? As to the sheep and goats judgment then, I simply see it being a judgment involving which of His professed servants are granted entrance into the kingdom, and which of His professed servants aren't.

                            Similar to something such as the following. In particular, verse 38.

                            Ezekiel 20:33 *As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
                            34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
                            35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
                            36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
                            37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
                            38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                              Since many incorrectly believe there is a literal 1000 years after the coming of our Lord then they need to devise how the world will be populated. Hence they say some will survive the second coming and then enter in the 1000 year reign with Christ. What do the scriptures say and why is it impossible for any to survive?

                              All the saints are first overcome by the beast

                              Rev 13
                              7 And it was given unto him (beast) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

                              All others opposed to the Beast are killed

                              Rev 13
                              15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

                              Thus the only ones remaining at this time upon the earth are the ungodly whom all will be killed upon Christ's return. No one survived not accepting the Mark of the Beast.

                              Those aligned with the Beast are all killed

                              Luke 17
                              29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
                              30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

                              NHNE occurs upon Christ's return

                              2 PT 3
                              10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

                              IS 64
                              2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!

                              Amos 9
                              5 And the Lord God of hosts is he that toucheth the land, and it shall melt, and all that dwell therein shall mourn: and it shall rise up wholly like a flood; and shall be drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.

                              Nahum
                              5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.


                              Christ comes as a flame of fire which will ignite this oil filled earth upon his return. Nothing living survives!
                              If NO MORTALS survive to populate the earth according to you, then explain who those described as Gog and Magog, likened like the sand of the sea in number (Rev20:8) are?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                                If I recall correctly, even you are on record saying there are many judgments, rather than just one judgment, that being the GWTJ. Why would the sheep and goats judgment even have to be the same judgment as you submitted above? If we think outside the box for a moment, in regards to the sheep and goats judgment, why might the text be indicating all nations are gathered, if it only involves professed servants of Christ like I am proposing? When Christ returns, where will all of His professed servants be found? Would they not be found throughout all the nations on the earth? As to the sheep and goats judgment then, I simply see it being a judgment involving which of His professed servants are granted entrance into the kingdom, and which of His professed servants aren't.

                                Similar to something such as the following. In particular, verse 38.

                                Ezekiel 20:33 *As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
                                34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
                                35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
                                36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
                                37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
                                38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
                                I thought we were chatting about the wheat and tares, not the sheep and goats. I'm currently on the fence with the sheep and goats. You make good points, but I don't see God giving special judgements for professed believers.

                                Comment

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