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  • #61
    Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
    There are two harvests in Rev 14. The first sounds like the resurrection. The second strangely has an exact location:
    The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of Godís wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city

    The location is outside Jerusalem, which curiously is the same location as Jehosaphat in Joel 3, where God judges the nations.

    Quite simply, the saved are resurrected, and a large proportion of the worlds warlike males are completely destroyed in the final war. These are the tares, gathered for slaughter to Jerusalem.

    In addition the worst behaving nations are wiped out completely at the second coming (eg Edom). This leaves a more peaceful DNA to repopulate the earth, the less aggressive elements from the better nations are the survivors. With Satan in the pit, and the saints judging and ruling, the net effect is a far more peaceful world than today.
    It's had to find logic with your exegesis. If the "worst behaving nations are completely wiped out according to you, who exactly then are those ostensibly with a "peaceful DNA" who supposedly go on to repopulate the earth?

    According to scripture, there are only two categories of people: believers and non-believers. Believers at that time would have been immortalized. On the other hand, scripture doesn't say that unbelievers come in different shades - with some totally in unbelief and others with varying degrees of unbelief. With this in mind, hopefully, you'll understand why I'm struggling to make sense of this category of unbelievers with peaceful DNA?. So please elaborate.

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    • #62
      Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
      It's had to find logic with your exegesis. If the "worst behaving nations are completely wiped out according to you, who exactly then are those ostensibly with a "peaceful DNA" who supposedly go on to repopulate the earth?

      According to scripture, there are only two categories of people: believers and non-believers. Believers at that time would have been immortalized. On the other hand, scripture doesn't say that unbelievers come in different shades - with some totally in unbelief and others with varying degrees of unbelief. With this in mind, hopefully, you'll understand why I'm struggling to make sense of this category of unbelievers with peaceful DNA?. So please elaborate.
      The unsaved are certainly divided according to wickedness. For example Edom will be destroyed for its wickedness, yet Israel lives on.


      In addition to the mortal nations being judged according to wickedness, the unsaved from among the nations will either participate in that war or not. Everyone participating in that war will be destroyed. This is described as a gathering of the wicked, implying that the more wicked individuals among the nations will be tempted to join a great war against Israel.

      With the evil nations destroyed, in that day, and the wicked from among the nations harvested in that war, this means those left behind will be better behaved.

      Rev 14. Not everyone is trampled, just those gathered outside the city :
      The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city

      Joel 3 I will sit to judge all the nations on every side.
      13 Swing the sickle for the harvest is ripe.
      Come, trample the grapes, for the winepress is full
      and the vats overflow— so great is their wickedness!”

      There is "great wickedness" , implying wickedness can be graded.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        If NO MORTALS survive to populate the earth according to you, then explain who those described as Gog and Magog, likened like the sand of the sea in number (Rev20:8) are?
        That only matters if the thousand years are after the 2nd coming. Ross does not agree they are. So in his case, your point would be moot.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

          Originally posted by divaD View Post
          Much of what you wrote in this post I would be in agreement with you about, except for maybe parts of what I have quoted above. And since you clearly grasp who the tares are meaning, I'm somewhat surprised you are not grasping who the goats are meaning in Matt 25. What was Jesus just talking about leading up to that judgment? Wasn't He talking about professed servants of His, where some were profitable, and some were unprofitable? But you do have some good arguments in the above quotes though, but still, the context leading up to the sheep and goats judgment involves professed servants of Christ, profitable ones and unprofitable ones. It therefore would not be unreasonable to think that the main focus of the sheep and goats judgment has to do with professed servants of Christ, where the sheep would represent the profitable servants, and the goats, the unprofitable servants. BTW, I am not alone in my thinking on that. There are plenty of others who see it similar. Maybe not on this board though, but elsewhere there is.
          • I cannot escape the simple and plain directive that these were "ALL Nations" (v.32)
          • I cannot escape the simple and plain directive that this is not the "Bema" that Christians are judged before (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10), but the "THRONOS" of His glory - one a traveling Seat of Judgement , and the other a fixed Seat of World Power in a fixed place
          • I cannot escape the Greek word "erchomai" for "come" in verse 31 which means that He has "arrived"
          • I cannot escape the simple and plain directive that the sheep and goats - "ALL nations" - are CONTRASTED with "the least of Christ's brethren"

          But I should address your argument concerning the context. Would you not say that there is an abrupt change from "His OWN servants" (V.14) and "the Lord of THOSE servants" (v.19) to "ALL Nations", ALL of which did not know Him? Would you not also say that there is an abrupt change from His own servants who knew what to do with Talents, to "ALL Nations" who simple gave a glass of water, NOT KNOWING WHAT THEY DID? Is not the Reward/Retribution totally different. To "His OWN servants" they may enter the JOY of the Lord for being faithful, and be consigned to "outer darkness" for being wicked and slothful. To "ALL Nations" the may "ENTER life" or be cast into "everlasting punishment" for a cup of water.

          The evidence is for TWO different sets of people - I think.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

            Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
            The unsaved are certainly divided according to wickedness. For example Edom will be destroyed for its wickedness, yet Israel lives on.


            In addition to the mortal nations being judged according to wickedness, the unsaved from among the nations will either participate in that war or not. Everyone participating in that war will be destroyed. This is described as a gathering of the wicked, implying that the more wicked individuals among the nations will be tempted to join a great war against Israel.

            With the evil nations destroyed, in that day, and the wicked from among the nations harvested in that war, this means those left behind will be better behaved.

            Rev 14. Not everyone is trampled, just those gathered outside the city :
            The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of Godís wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city

            Joel 3 I will sit to judge all the nations on every side.
            13 Swing the sickle for the harvest is ripe.
            Come, trample the grapes, for the winepress is full
            and the vats overflowó so great is their wickedness!Ē

            There is "great wickedness" , implying wickedness can be graded.
            Your argument doesn't add up probably because of your poor understanding of the relevant texts. For a start, Edom, a sworn OT enemy of Israel have long been totally destroyed as God promised, vide: Isaiah 34:5-6. Just as God promised to destroy ancient Babylon and that it would forever remain in ruins, the same applies to Edom. Therefore, every reference to Babylon in Revelation does not pertain to the physical Babylon which no longer exists, but a figurative reference to everything that God hates. This is the eschatological meaning of Babylon. In the same vein, we see Gog and Magog, an OT enemy of God and Israel (see Ezekiel 38:2-11) used in Rev 20:8 as a representation of the wicked that oppose God.

            In Rev 3:15-16 Jesus urged the church to take a side; for or against him. So believers are "warm" and unbelievers, "cold" - there's nothing in between as "lukewarm". So technically, your classification of unbelievers into wicked and great wickedness seems like you have forced the "lukewarm" (whom Jesus expressly said he'll spew out of his mouth) into the mainstream.

            Brother, whether the unbelieving Christ rejecter is wicked or in great wickedness, he is NOT of Christ, for sure. To round up my case, some unbelievers must survive the catastrophe of the end times and Christ' Second Coming. With Satan banged up for 1000 years, there will be relative peace and safety on earth making it conducive for them to repopulate in the MK. Because the saints at that time will be immortalized and according to Matt 22:30 they can neither marry nor have children for they will be like the angels.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

              Originally posted by divaD View Post
              In my view the tares are not even meaning the evil people of the world, as in all of the lost combined. They are meaning the goats in Matt 25, who I take to mean the unprofitable servants of Christ.
              Mat 13:38* The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;*
              Mat 13:39* The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.*
              Mat 13:40* As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.*

              I don't see the tares as specifically fallen Christians...they represent anyone who were spiritually children of Satan. That can include false Christians, people like Hitler, or just regular people who simply rejected Christ and maybe didn't appear evil ie: looked like wheat.

              Either way, the important part here is to understand when this burning and gathering to the barn happens which is at the timeframe of the GWTJ.
              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                There are two harvests in Rev 14. The first sounds like the resurrection. The second strangely has an exact location:
                The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of Godís wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city

                The location is outside Jerusalem, which curiously is the same location as Jehosaphat in Joel 3, where God judges the nations.
                Yet it is at Armageddon that blood is spilled like grape juice so I think that is where Rev 14 is talking about especially since that is where Satan leads his army to in the 6th vial.
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                  Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                  T

                  So who is left to populate a millennial kingdom? Nobody.
                  You are ignoring that Christ is coming to rule over people and Rev 20 says it will last a thousand years so this nobody idea has always been wrong according to scripture.




                  31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
                  32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
                  33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
                  34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

                  Is the millennial kingdom what they inherit? They inherit a temporary reign whereby now they have to do it all over again? Of course not.
                  The kingdom is forever. Only the reign over the nations with a rod of iron is temporary. When that thousand year reign ends, they will be judged to the fire.

                  It is literally impossibly to get a clear picture of the events when you leave Rev out of it.



                  41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

                  They depart and then wait 1000 years to be cast into the fire. Of course not.
                  They are separated which shows why Satan goes out to various areas of the world to get to these people after the thousand years.

                  Rev 20:7* And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,*
                  Rev 20:8* And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.*


                  So when other text say those who were "left" are those which survive the second death and remain.
                  They don't "survive" the second death, they never were in danger of it because they were saved and made immortal.
                  James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                    Originally posted by divaD View Post
                    That only matters if the thousand years are after the 2nd coming. Ross does not agree they are. So in his case, your point would be moot.
                    Except there is no second coming in Rev 20 so it has to be before that which is easily provable using Rev 19 and 20 and when the beast and FP are in the LOF and when Satan finally goes there. Of course, that dismantles all of Amil in one swoop.
                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      Except there is no second coming in Rev 20
                      But there is................

                      Rev 20

                      Little season

                      7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

                      (till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.)

                      Battle

                      8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

                      Second coming

                      9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

                      Notice where "they" came from. Direction is "up" from the "breadth of the earth' ie beneath the earth. The camp of the saints and the beloved city is a picture of the armies upon Jerusalem (Babylon). And the fire down from God is the return of Christ.


                      Prior to Rev 20 we have the same events. Little season, battle, and fire come down from heaven

                      Little season

                      Rev 6
                      11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

                      Battle - devils/gog and magog/whole earth/fire

                      Rev 16
                      13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
                      14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.


                      Ez 38
                      16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
                      17 Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
                      18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.
                      19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

                      Fire from heaven

                      2 Thess 1
                      7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
                      8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

                      Rev 19
                      12 His eyes were as a flame of fire,

                      So yes there is the second coming in Rev 20. Surely these events do not happen twice.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

                        Brother, whether the unbelieving Christ rejecter is wicked or in great wickedness, he is NOT of Christ, for sure. To round up my case, some unbelievers must survive the catastrophe of the end times and Christ' Second Coming. With Satan banged up for 1000 years, there will be relative peace and safety on earth making it conducive for them to repopulate in the MK. Because the saints at that time will be immortalized and according to Matt 22:30 they can neither marry nor have children for they will be like the angels.
                        I agree with this last statement.

                        Regarding national destinies, Zech 14 does refer to good nations and bad nations. So these unsaved nations can certainly be graded according to their behavior.

                        Although Israel is not all saved, those unsaved mortal survivors are essentially a strongly filtered remnant. Filtered for over 3000 years of just a remnant being allowed to survive, what we see now is a remnant of a remnant of a remnant.

                        The Exodus, Edom, Babylon etc are all examples that God has no compunction against removing a particularly badly behaved nation, nations are judged on their behavior.

                        Psalm 79 Pour out your wrath on the nations
                        that do not acknowledge you,
                        on the kingdoms
                        that do not call on your name;
                        7 for they have devoured Jacob
                        and devastated his homeland.

                        Jeremiah 10 Pour out your wrath on the nations
                        that do not acknowledge you,
                        on the peoples who do not call on your name.
                        For they have devoured Jacob;
                        they have devoured him completely
                        and destroyed his homeland.

                        Jeremiah 25:15 Take from my hand this cup filled with the wine of my wrath and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it.

                        Micah 5 I will uproot from among you your Asherah poles when I demolish your cities. I will take vengeance in anger and wrath on the nations that have not obeyed me.

                        Edom will have a particularly bad destiny in the future: Isaiah 34
                        For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
                        a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
                        9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
                        her dust into burning sulfur;
                        her land will become blazing pitch!
                        10 It will not be quenched night or day;
                        its smoke will rise forever.


                        Certainly God has a history of the rise and fall of nations according to national corporate behavior. The surviving nations without their armies, and the Jewish remnant will give the new world a headstart on morality, with the saints ruling and judging over them.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                          With Satan banged up for 1000 years, there will be relative peace and safety on earth making it conducive for them to repopulate in the MK.
                          Why are you assuming the earth needs to be repopulated during the thousand years? Why can't there be enough people remaining of the nations that came against Jerusalem in Zech 14? Why can't, even though they will be mortals, still be alive a thousand years later? Adam almost lived that amount of time, and he did that as a mortal being.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                            Originally posted by divaD View Post
                            That only matters if the thousand years are after the 2nd coming. Ross does not agree they are. So in his case, your point would be moot.
                            There is nothing 'moot' about the fact that scripture (Isaiah 65:20; Rev 20:8) says that mortals will live and repopulate the earth in the Millennium. Unless Ross is Mid-trib who believe we are presently living in the '1000 years', otherwise it is folly to doubt that the '1000 years' will start after Jesus returns and defeats the AC.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                              I agree with this last statement.

                              Regarding national destinies, Zech 14 does refer to good nations and bad nations. So these unsaved nations can certainly be graded according to their behavior.

                              Although Israel is not all saved, those unsaved mortal survivors are essentially a strongly filtered remnant. Filtered for over 3000 years of just a remnant being allowed to survive, what we see now is a remnant of a remnant of a remnant.

                              The Exodus, Edom, Babylon etc are all examples that God has no compunction against removing a particularly badly behaved nation, nations are judged on their behavior.

                              Psalm 79 Pour out your wrath on the nations
                              that do not acknowledge you,
                              on the kingdoms
                              that do not call on your name;
                              7 for they have devoured Jacob
                              and devastated his homeland.

                              Jeremiah 10 Pour out your wrath on the nations
                              that do not acknowledge you,
                              on the peoples who do not call on your name.
                              For they have devoured Jacob;
                              they have devoured him completely
                              and destroyed his homeland.

                              Jeremiah 25:15 Take from my hand this cup filled with the wine of my wrath and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it.

                              Micah 5 I will uproot from among you your Asherah poles when I demolish your cities. I will take vengeance in anger and wrath on the nations that have not obeyed me.

                              Edom will have a particularly bad destiny in the future: Isaiah 34
                              For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
                              a year of retribution, to uphold Zionís cause.
                              9 Edomís streams will be turned into pitch,
                              her dust into burning sulfur;
                              her land will become blazing pitch!
                              10 It will not be quenched night or day;
                              its smoke will rise forever.


                              Certainly God has a history of the rise and fall of nations according to national corporate behavior. The surviving nations without their armies, and the Jewish remnant will give the new world a headstart on morality, with the saints ruling and judging over them.
                              The remnant of Israel in the end times refer to those who will be saved. And that implies they will come to faith in Christ. There is no other way they can be saved without accepting Christ. I still can't find scriptural support for your belief that unsaved nations will be graded according to behaviour.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: No mortals survive the second coming able to populate a millennium

                                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                                Why are you assuming the earth needs to be repopulated during the thousand years? Why can't there be enough people remaining of the nations that came against Jerusalem in Zech 14? Why can't, even though they will be mortals, still be alive a thousand years later? Adam almost lived that amount of time, and he did that as a mortal being.
                                Try Isaiah 65:20....

                                Comment

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