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Who and what is the antichrist?

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  • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    Plus we have to keep in mind the following.

    Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.


    This would be one of the 7 hills, right? Which of the 7 hills in Rome would this be meaning?

    Maybe it's just me, but when the text states here is a mind that has wisdom, it can't be something as simple as, well Rome has 7 hills, so it must be meaning Rome then. That just sounds too simplistic rather than a mind that has wisdom figuring out what is meant here.
    Rome was just a shadow of what is coming. One of the mountains will experience a war or some kind, then it will be healed and the entire empire will be stronger than ever...it's a new global empire.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

      Originally posted by divaD View Post
      Is it really that simple though, that it's meaning Rome?

      Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

      The text indicates that it requires a mind that has wisdom in order to even understand what is meant here.

      We see another Scripture in Revelation where it also requires wisdom to even understand what is being meant.

      Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

      If wisdom is this super easy to possess, regarding Revelation 17:9, that because Rome has 7 hills, which probably even 5th graders might already know, this means it's meaning Rome then, so why isn't the possessing of wisdom just as easy in Revelation 13:18 as well?
      It is easy. It's not been easy for us, in the 21st century, because we are far removed from the people who the book of Revelation was addressed to. God has given us enough information, but it really has to be researched and prayed for.

      The 666 number referred to the legendary 1st King of Rome, whose name added up to 666. That was known in John's time, and it took simple wisdom to understand this.

      It is the same with the riddle of the 7 kings. John uses the image of a set of 7 to extract from this clues to the Roman identity of this future confederation of 7 kings. 7 Hills indicate the 7 hilled city of Rome. And the 7 kingdoms led up to the Roman Empire and to its endtime development in a confederation of 10 states.

      The reason John couched all this in symbolism and in riddles is so that Christians would understand it, but not unbelievers. John was imprisoned by Rome, and dared not explicitly refer to Rome, since that would appear to be a form of sedition and rebellion. As a Christian, John was not trying to overthrow the Roman Empire at all.

      And so, John used terms that would make clear to Christians that the future Beast would be a future form of the current empire, the Roman Empire. It would have 10 kingdoms and 7 kings, or what today we might call 10 states and 7 leaders. The symbolism was designed to make plain to Christians that this future Antichristian Empire would be of Roman origin.

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      • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

        Originally posted by randyk View Post
        It would have 10 kingdoms and 7 kings, or what today we might call 10 states and 7 leaders.
        John still said there were ten horns not 7. This 7 leaders thing does not come from Rev.

        Rev 17:12* And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.*
        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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        • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
          John still said there were ten horns not 7. This 7 leaders thing does not come from Rev.

          Rev 17:12* And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.*
          So we've come full circle? You claim Rev does not contain 7 leaders simply because you deny that 7 leaders is the equivalent of 7 heads. We simply disagree on the notion that 7 heads = 7 leaders.

          My position is based on the assumption that 7 heads refers to the 7 leaders indicated in Dan 7, after 7 of the 10 horns are defeated. That left, in my view, 10 horns less 3 leaders. 3 of the horns were defeated, but they remained leaderless. Thus, they were 10 horns and 7 heads.

          Since this gets a little confusing, when trying to place your view and my view side by side, let me just spell it out again. In order to see if my view is consistent you have to accept the terms as I use them.

          Dan 7: 10 horns exist, with 3 horns defeated. This leaves all 10 horns intact, but with 3 heads, or leaders, removed.
          Rev 13: 10 horns exist, with only 7 heads, or leaders, remaining.

          This is completely consistent, if you define the terms as I see them. This perfectly equates Dan 7 and Rev 13, when you do this.

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          • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

            Originally posted by randyk View Post

            Dan 7: 10 horns exist, with 3 horns defeated. This leaves all 10 horns intact, but with 3 heads, or leaders, removed.
            Rev 13: 10 horns exist, with only 7 heads, or leaders, remaining.

            Doesn't this imply there is initially a 10 headed beast? There is nowhere in the Bible that it ever makes mention of a 10 headed beast, is there?

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            • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

              Originally posted by randyk View Post
              It is easy. It's not been easy for us, in the 21st century, because we are far removed from the people who the book of Revelation was addressed to. God has given us enough information, but it really has to be researched and prayed for.

              The 666 number referred to the legendary 1st King of Rome, whose name added up to 666. That was known in John's time, and it took simple wisdom to understand this.

              It is the same with the riddle of the 7 kings. John uses the image of a set of 7 to extract from this clues to the Roman identity of this future confederation of 7 kings. 7 Hills indicate the 7 hilled city of Rome. And the 7 kingdoms led up to the Roman Empire and to its endtime development in a confederation of 10 states.

              The reason John couched all this in symbolism and in riddles is so that Christians would understand it, but not unbelievers. John was imprisoned by Rome, and dared not explicitly refer to Rome, since that would appear to be a form of sedition and rebellion. As a Christian, John was not trying to overthrow the Roman Empire at all.

              And so, John used terms that would make clear to Christians that the future Beast would be a future form of the current empire, the Roman Empire. It would have 10 kingdoms and 7 kings, or what today we might call 10 states and 7 leaders. The symbolism was designed to make plain to Christians that this future Antichristian Empire would be of Roman origin.
              I don't know if you are correct or not, so it's not that I'm trying to dispute anything that is generally concluded, that it's meaning Rome because Rome has 7 hills, it's just that that seems too obvious if that were the case. So why need a mind that has wisdom in order to understand something elementary, that because the beast has 7 hills, and that Rome has 7 hills, we know Rome is meant then?

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              • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                Doesn't this imply there is initially a 10 headed beast? There is nowhere in the Bible that it ever makes mention of a 10 headed beast, is there?
                Not that I know of. I'm making the assumption, based on a comparison with Revelation, that the 10 horns of Dan 7 are the 10 horns of Rev 13. And I'm assuming that the 10 horns are 10 kingdoms, or states, over which leaders preside.

                The fact the heads are not mentioned as such in Daniel is not prohibitive for me. Clearly, 3 of the 10 kingdoms are defeated by the Antichrist, so that all 10 kingdoms come under the control of the Antichrist.

                What has changed? The 10 kingdoms remain, but 3 of the leaders over those kingdoms were defeated. This leaves 10 horns and "7 heads."

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                • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

                  Originally posted by divaD View Post
                  I don't know if you are correct or not, so it's not that I'm trying to dispute anything that is generally concluded, that it's meaning Rome because Rome has 7 hills, it's just that that seems too obvious if that were the case. So why need a mind that has wisdom in order to understand something elementary, that because the beast has 7 hills, and that Rome has 7 hills, we know Rome is meant then?
                  I don't believe John was saying that it required great intelligence to understand the association between the symbolism and Rome. I'm saying that he refused to pointedly make the association, such that it required "wisdom" to understand these things as indirect symbols.

                  In other words, the focus was on the coming 7 kings allied with Antichrist. But to connect the 7 kings to the Roman imperial tradition John had to make indirect references to the fact, utilizing symbolism. The "7 hills" were a symbol of Rome. It didn't take great intelligence to understand that, but it did require that we understand he was using them as a symbol. He was not confusing the "7 heads" as being Rome itself, but only as belonging to the Roman imperial tradition.

                  The same with the 7 kings, or kingdoms. John was not literally identifying the "7 heads" as being this succession of kingdoms in history. Rather, he was using them to symbolically identify the 7 kings, under Antichrist, as associated with the Roman imperial tradition. That's how Daniel used the 4 kingdoms in ch. 7. They were a succession of kingdoms that led to the Roman Empire, and ultimately to the Antichristian Empire.

                  Something had to happen to turn the ancient Roman Empire into the modern Antichristian Empire. And Daniel described it as a breakup of the Roman Empire into states, which confederate into a European Union, and ultimately see 3 of the leaders removed, leaving 7 heads of state supporting the Antichrist.

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                  • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

                    Originally posted by randyk View Post
                    Not that I know of. I'm making the assumption, based on a comparison with Revelation, that the 10 horns of Dan 7 are the 10 horns of Rev 13. And I'm assuming that the 10 horns are 10 kingdoms, or states, over which leaders preside.

                    The fact the heads are not mentioned as such in Daniel is not prohibitive for me. Clearly, 3 of the 10 kingdoms are defeated by the Antichrist, so that all 10 kingdoms come under the control of the Antichrist.

                    What has changed? The 10 kingdoms remain, but 3 of the leaders over those kingdoms were defeated. This leaves 10 horns and "7 heads."
                    IMO Dan 7 maybe does tell us how many heads. Here is some of my reasoning thusfar, that I just formulated as I was attempting to think through some of this.

                    Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
                    4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
                    5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
                    6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
                    7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.


                    Maybe my reasoning is amiss here, yet it seems to me that maybe the above combined describes a 7 headed beast with 10 horns.

                    The first was like a lion...equals 1 head.

                    another beast, a second, like to a bear...equals 1 head.

                    and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads...equals 4 heads.

                    and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth...equals 1 head.

                    and it had ten horns.

                    Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
                    2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

                    and saw a beast rise up out of the sea---equals 1 head.(Daniel 7:7)

                    was like unto a leopard...equals 4 heads.(Daniel 7:6)

                    and his feet were as the feet of a bear...equals 1 head.(Daniel 7:5)

                    and his mouth as the mouth of a lion...equals 1 head.(Daniel 7:4)

                    having...ten horns(Revelation 13:1)(Daniel 7:7)


                    From what I can tell, of these 7 heads, only one of them has 10 horns. According to Daniel 7:7 it would be the 4th beast.

                    Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

                    Could this be the head that has the 10 horns?

                    Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
                    13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

                    I would think this is perhaps also referring to the 10 toes in Dan 2.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

                      Originally posted by divaD View Post
                      IMO Dan 7 maybe does tell us how many heads. Here is some of my reasoning thusfar, that I just formulated as I was attempting to think through some of this.

                      Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
                      4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
                      5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
                      6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
                      7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.


                      Maybe my reasoning is amiss here, yet it seems to me that maybe the above combined describes a 7 headed beast with 10 horns.

                      The first was like a lion...equals 1 head.

                      another beast, a second, like to a bear...equals 1 head.

                      and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads...equals 4 heads.

                      and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth...equals 1 head.

                      and it had ten horns.

                      Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
                      2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

                      and saw a beast rise up out of the sea---equals 1 head.(Daniel 7:7)

                      was like unto a leopard...equals 4 heads.(Daniel 7:6)

                      and his feet were as the feet of a bear...equals 1 head.(Daniel 7:5)

                      and his mouth as the mouth of a lion...equals 1 head.(Daniel 7:4)

                      having...ten horns(Revelation 13:1)(Daniel 7:7)


                      From what I can tell, of these 7 heads, only one of them has 10 horns. According to Daniel 7:7 it would be the 4th beast.

                      Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

                      Could this be the head that has the 10 horns?

                      Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
                      13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

                      I would think this is perhaps also referring to the 10 toes in Dan 2.
                      Well, I do think this is an interesting comparison of the Beast in Rev 13 with the Beasts in Dan 7. But there are some significant differences. In my view, the Beast of Rev 13 has 10 horns and 7 heads, indicating that in the last days, the Antichrist will preside over an empire with 10 states and 7 presidents. Although the 4 Beasts of Dan 7 contain similar language, they are all in the past, except that they lead up, in the end, to the Antichristian Empire.

                      So when we see in Rev 13 the mouth of a lion, the body of a leopard, and the feet of a bear, we are talking about *characteristics* of the endtime Empire of Antichrist, and not about the ancient kingdoms depicted with the same animal likenesses in Dan 7. I do find it significant, however, that the *same* animals are used to characterize the Antichristian Empire as were used in the ancient succession of kingdoms leading up to this Empire. It is a single imperial tradition that comes to dominate the region in which both Israel and the Church was born and nurtured.

                      Also, in counting 7 heads of Daniel's 4 Beasts we are not accounting for the fall of 3 horns, described in the same account. In other words, the 7 heads of the 4 Beasts in Dan 7 are clearly separate from the defeat of the 3 horns by the Little Horn.

                      So I don't count the "7 heads" of Rev 13 to be the same as the heads in Dan 7 leading up to the Roman Empire, and eventually to the Antichristian Empire. I do find it interesting that the same number of heads are there, but the more significant fact is that during the Antichristian Empire, 3 heads are removed when their kingdoms are defeated. All 10 kingdoms remain, but there are only 7 leaders remaining. 3 of the "heads" have fallen, leaving "7 heads." 10 horns and 7 heads.

                      Anyway, it's an interesting study.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

                        Originally posted by randyk View Post
                        So we've come full circle? You claim Rev does not contain 7 leaders simply because you deny that 7 leaders is the equivalent of 7 heads.
                        Even if that was correct, there still wouldn't be a specific 7 leaders since there are ten other leaders so you would have 17. What Rev actually says is there is one leader over ten lesser leaders. That's it.


                        My position is based on the assumption that 7 heads refers to the 7 leaders indicated in Dan 7, after 7 of the 10 horns are defeated.
                        Assumptions are bad. In Daniel there are no heads that are leaders. Only horns are leaders.

                        That left, in my view, 10 horns less 3 leaders. 3 of the horns were defeated, but they remained leaderless. Thus, they were 10 horns and 7 heads.
                        How can you have 3 of ten horns defeated and still end up with ten horns? Does Rev say 3 horns are ever defeated? Does it say new horns rise up after this defeat that Rev does not say happens?



                        Since this gets a little confusing, when trying to place your view and my view side by side, let me just spell it out again. In order to see if my view is consistent you have to accept the terms as I use them.

                        Dan 7: 10 horns exist, with 3 horns defeated. This leaves all 10 horns intact, but with 3 heads, or leaders, removed.
                        It makes no sense to say 3 horns defeated but in tact and swicth to heads being removed when neither Daniel nor Rev ever says heads are removed. This is the problem with wrongly believing heads are leaders. They aren't, they are mountains which is land. Even in your own example of Rome and 7 hills the hills are not leaders. Stick to that analogy and you will get Rev more correctly.

                        Rev 13: 10 horns exist, with only 7 heads, or leaders, remaining.
                        No loss of horns or heads at all....same ones it rises with.

                        This is completely consistent, if you define the terms as I see them. This perfectly equates Dan 7 and Rev 13, when you do this.
                        There's still errors and inconsistencies and the two books cannot be perfectly connected since they predict different things to happen.
                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post

                          The fact the heads are not mentioned as such in Daniel is not prohibitive for me. Clearly, 3 of the 10 kingdoms are defeated by the Antichrist, so that all 10 kingdoms come under the control of the Antichrist.
                          No kingdoms are defeated by the AC. They all willingly give their kingdoms to the beast:

                          Rev 17:16* And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.*
                          Rev 17:17* For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.*


                          So, there is no issue between the horns and the AC. None are plucked up or defeated etc.
                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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                          • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

                            Originally posted by divaD View Post
                            From what I can tell, of these 7 heads, only one of them has 10 horns.
                            While that is technically possible, it really doesn't make sense that no other mountains contain any kingdoms. The whole idea is these ten kingdoms rule over a wide area of lands as their territory and I believe it will be global. The first actual global empire. I think it must be that each head has at least 1 horn and some have more since there are more horns than heads and the heads are mountains and not all will be the same size so the bigger mountain the more likely there will be more than one horn.
                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              In my view, the Beast of Rev 13 has 10 horns and 7 heads, indicating that in the last days, the Antichrist will preside over an empire with 10 states and 7 presidents.
                              Except these ten "states" have their own "presidents"already. Rome had 7 hills, the hills were land where rulers ruled from. The Rev 13 beast is the same, 7 hills or land where rulers rule from. Never are heads/mountains/hills anything but land where kingdoms/states are located at.
                              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

                                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                                Except these ten "states" have their own "presidents"already. Rome had 7 hills, the hills were land where rulers ruled from. The Rev 13 beast is the same, 7 hills or land where rulers rule from. Never are heads/mountains/hills anything but land where kingdoms/states are located at.
                                That obviously is untrue. Rome is known as the "city of 7 hills." Look it up. Lots of cities are known as such, and are viewed HERE.

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