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Who and what is the antichrist?

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  • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    That obviously is untrue. Rome is known as the "city of 7 hills." Look it up.
    What are you disagreeing with? I said it had 7 hills. It's what those hills and are are not that is the problem I'm trying to get you to see. Those hills are hills, not leaders like you think the heads/mountains are in Rev 13.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
      What are you disagreeing with? I said it had 7 hills. It's what those hills and are are not that is the problem I'm trying to get you to see. Those hills are hills, not leaders like you think the heads/mountains are in Rev 13.
      It's obviously you, my friend, who are not seeing what I'm saying. I've said from the beginning that the 7 mountains are the 7 hills of Rome. The 7 kings are the thing that is being foretold--not the 7 mountains, nor the 7 kingdoms (kings). The 7 mountains are just a hint to explain that the 7 kings are of Roman origin. The 7 kingdoms are just a hint to show that the 7 kings are of Roman origin.

      I never said the 7 mountains are 7 kings. I said the 7 kings are being identified by a figure of 7 mountains. I said the 7 kings are being identified by a figure of 7 kingdoms. Not the reverse.

      The 7 kings do not represent 7 mountains or 7 kingdoms. It is the 7 mountains and the 7 kingdoms that represent the fact the 7 kings are of Roman origin. I'm surprised you can't even understand my position. I'm not asking you to agree with it--just understand it!

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      • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

        Originally posted by randyk View Post
        I'm not asking you to agree with it--just understand it!
        I understand it, which is why I can show you the places where it doesn't match what Rev says but I haven't been able to get you to see these things so I guess I'll pause on it for awhile.
        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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        • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
          I understand it, which is why I can show you the places where it doesn't match what Rev says but I haven't been able to get you to see these things so I guess I'll pause on it for awhile.
          I didn't think you understood it because your answers seem to have reflected a mischaracterization of my position. You seemed to have it in reverse, perhaps that 3 things were being predicted at once, the 7 kings, the 7 mountains, and the 7 kingdoms, as if they were all the same? But I've been trying to explain that this is a literary device that makes use of the number 7 to show something about the 7 kings.

          This was never about 7 mountains, nor about 7 kingdoms. Rather, those were used as symbols of 7 to indicate that the 7 kings were somehow of Roman origin. The 7 mountains expressed a figure used for Rome, to show that the 7 kings were going to come out of the Roman culture. And the 7 kingdoms were also a figure derived from the number 7, to show that the 7 kings can be understood, again, as being of Roman origin. The 7 kingdoms were a succession of 7 kingdoms that according to Dan 7 led through Rome to the Empire of Antichrist.

          These 2 figures of 7 were designed to show that the coming 7 kings would be of Roman origin. Never was there any thought to foretell the coming of 7 mountains, nor to foretell the coming of 7 kingdoms. These were figures denoting that the 7 kings would be of Roman origin. They were just a literary device, contrasting similar sets of 7 to equate them with the predicted 7 kings.

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          • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            They were just a literary device, contrasting similar sets of 7 to equate them with the predicted 7 kings.
            Fallen kings are not predictions. Only two kings were predicted at the time of John's writing.

            Rev 17:10* And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.*
            Rev 17:11* And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.*
            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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            • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

              Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
              Fallen kings are not predictions. Only two kings were predicted at the time of John's writing.

              Rev 17:10* And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.*
              Rev 17:11* And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.*
              You see, once again you show that you don't really understand my position. Again--not trying to say you have to agree--just understand. Or perhaps you simply asserting your own position?

              I don't actually think John was predicting the rise of 7 mountains, nor the rise of 7 historical kingdoms. These were figures attached to the 7 kings by the number "7" to show the origins of the 7 kings to come.

              As I said, the 7 mountains are the 7 hills of Rome, which is something people at that time would've recognized. It was directing the readers back to the prophecy of Daniel, in which the 4th kingdom would be about Rome. John was confirming that identification.

              The 7 kingdoms were the succession of kingdoms Daniel spoke of that would, as I said, result in the 4th kingdom being Rome. Only, John seems to have added Egypt and Assyria to ensure the 6th kingdom would be Rome, and that the final kingdom would be the Kingdom of Antichrist. Again, this figure of *7* would've been understood by John's readers, and would help them identify this prophecy of a future 7 kings as issuing out of Roman origin.

              Again, the 7 kings are the main focus of the prophecy--not the 7 mountains, and not the 7 kingdoms. The 7 kings would be leaders associated with the Antichristian Kingdom. They would arise out of the 4th Kingdom of Daniel--the Empire of Rome. John was just confirming the prophecy of Daniel.

              John was *not* predicting the coming of the 7 kingdoms in succession! He was saying that the future coming of 7 kings, associated with Antichrist, can be understood by relating them to the figure of 7 kingdoms in sequence. It was all about the 7 future kings, and not about the past sequence of kings. The past kings are only designed to help readers know that the 7 kings will issue out of the old Roman Empire. This is precisely what Daniel foretold.

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              • Re: Who and what is the antichrist?

                Originally posted by randyk View Post
                Or perhaps you simply asserting your own position?
                Just showing you were your logic isn't working out with what scripture says. You say the 7 kings are predictions but 5 fallen kings cannot be predictions because it already happened. As of 11/2019, the 6th is also fallen so that leaves only two that can fit as predictions from this date forward.

                If you still disagree on this then what else can I say?
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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