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  • #16
    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

    Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
    Rev 20
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    1. The verse ONLY speaks of the martyred.
    2. They are martyred during a specific point in time. During the mark of the beast.
    3. Judgement has been given them thus they have been resurrected.
    Yes !!!!! But then you miss the BIG PICTURE !! You don't see anything but the Martyred/those who REFUSED the Mark of the Beast because the Church came back with Jesus in Rev. 19, thus we already have our Glorious bodies !! But in order to understand that you have to get the timing of the Rapture right, its Pre Trib. The Church have already been Judged as Worthy because we were in Christ Jesus and had the Holy Spirit in us.

    The Martyrs under the Altar at the 5th Seal are specifically told they have to wait until their brothers are killed in LIKE MANNER as they were. These are the Gentiles who come to Christ Jesus AFTER the Rapture. The Jews wpo come to Christ after the Rapture are PROTECTED in the Petra/Bozrah area for 1260 days.

    So where in scripture do we see such a group?

    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    The 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. They have been resurrected and seen with the Lamb before he returns. Thus they are not part of the first resurrection after he returns. The "first" resurrection is called such as it is "first" upon the second coming.
    The 144,000 is a METAPHOR for the 1/3 of the Jews that Repent {Zechariah 13:8-9} it means ALL ISRAEL, seeing as 12 is the number for Fullness thus 12 X 12,000 = All Israel or every Jews that Repents, not every Jew of course because we know via Zechariah 13:8-9 that 2/3 refuse to Repent and thus they PERISH !! The 144,000 are the Jews who Flee Judea when the AoD happens, 30 days before the Beast Conquers Jerusalem/Israel/Mediterranean Sea Region. That is why we see them BETWEEN the Seals and the Trumps which HURT THE EARTH, SEA & TREES. God holds up the Trump Judgments that devastate the earth/sea/trees until the Jews reach Petra !!

    The 144,000 are thus the Redeemed of EARTH, they remain on earth until Jesus returns, thus they are the Wheat in Rev. 14:1. The Wicked Tares are seen in Rev. 14:18-20, they GROW TOGETHER until the end !! Nowhere does it say they have been resurrected, you just assumed that right brother ? It says they were REDEEMED from earth. The Jews who repent after the Rapture are the Wheat, the Wicked Tares are those that follow the Beast, the Church is in Heaven at this time, the Martyrs are the Gentiles who REPENT adter the Rapture. Thus NO ONE comes to Christ accept by Faith Alone, on either side of the Rapture.

    So where are all the other believers mentioned which did not die a martyred death?


    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    They are the rest of the dead. why do we know this?

    1. Only the martyred have been mentioned.
    2. They take part in the first resurrection and are holy and blessed. (note again those in verse 4 are not part of the first resurrection).
    3. They are priests of God. (the martyred live and reign so who else can be those which are the priest of God and reign?)


    So understanding that those in verse 4 are only the martyred and are raised to life before the second coming and the first resurrection then helps us understand the rest of the dead are meant as the rest of the dead believers who correctly take part in the first resurrection.

    Many have been programmed to believe the 1000 years is literal which then contradicts so many other scriptures; that there is a 1000 literal years between resurrections, having to deny the NHNE occurs at the second coming wherein mortals then can survive, promoting two little seasons and placing revolving door instead of a gate for hell, rearranging chapter 20 text, on and on.


    John uses the phrase 1000 years as a metaphor and represents a non defined time length outside this realm between the casting of Satan in the pit and the ending with the second coming.

    Satan cast into pit------> 1000 years (firstfruit resurrection 144,000) ------> Second coming/First resurrection (rest of the dead believers)
    The REST OF THE DEAD are speaking about the Wicked Tares who were BOUND UP to be BURNED in 1000 years, at the Second Death !! {All the Wicked will be Judged at the Second Death/Judgment/Resurrection}.

    Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they{CHURCH JUDGES} sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them{CHURCH know ye not that we shall Judge Angels}: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, {Martyrs/5th Seal} and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished {Wicked are BOUND and BURNED later, see the Wheat and the Tares Parable}. This is the first resurrection. THIS speaks of verse 4..........not verse 5, the First Resurrection is being spoken about in verse 4, the others being judged in 1000 years is not the SUBJECT HERE, its just a quick point of order hes making THIS is the First Resurrection speaks about the Martyrs being Judged. Reading further PROVES THIS. }

    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Here is how it goes.......The Pre Trib Rapture Raptures the Church to Heaven, both those Dead in Christ and those who are ALIVE AND REMAIN. Then Jesus Returns and meets the 144,000 {Jews or ALL Israel} on Mt Zion, he Resurrects the Martyrs AND the Jewish Saints of old who were told {REMEMBER Daniel ch 12} that they would stand in their lots at the VERY END. The Martyrs are Judged and given their Glorious Bodies and SERVE Jesus on earth for 1000 years. This ALL is the First Resurrection !! That is why it is said AFTER the Martyrs are Resurrected and Judged.

    ALL THE REST of the Dead are the Wicked !! Go read the Wheat and the Tares Parable, the Tares are BOUND {Killed and put in the grave} to be BURNED LATER.

    As we see, everything below verse 5 is speaking about the SECOND DEATH !!

    Until we get the timing of the Rapture right, it will throw us off on all other timings.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      Just wait. Your life will end if our Lord Jesus does not return in your lifetime. Our Lord Jesus, Who possessed eternal life, died. What think ye of that.
      My life will never end, because Jesus is with me now.. And thinking mankind can end the life of God is a mistake.

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      But lest I be accused of ignoring your scriptures, John 6:47, the eternal life comes from our rebirth, and our rebirth is by the holy Spirit ONLY in our human spirit - not our body (Jn.3:6). And Luke 10:19 does not say we cannot die. It promises protection while serving the Lord.
      I know where eternal life comes from. Believers have it already and we are protected from all the power of the enemy, not just part of it.

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      I fail to see what this has to do with dying after being beheaded.
      It has everything to do with it, because Jesus wasn't being defeated by the cross. Do you think sinners doing terrible things in OT times is evidence that God doesn't exist, or that he doesn't rule over them, simply because he doesn't put an end to them? Do you? Do you believe God doesn't rule over the wicked, just because the wicked hate God? If so, you better think again, because Jesus could have destroyed those hated him anytime he wanted to, but chose to show mercy.

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      Then our Lord made a mistake. He said to the Father "thy Kingdom COME". Why did He say that if he had always reigned.
      Because the desire of every believer should be that God's Kingdom is seen. His Kingdom is already here, but not seen by unbelievers (Lk.17:20-21). It appears only those born of his Spirit. Same thing with Gods will. He's saying, "Help us to do your will". You think God's will won't be done if sinners disobey him?

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      A Kingdom is a sphere where a certain king rules. That is, his will is carried out. Presently, on earth, the Gentiles rule and Christ's will is NOT done. Christ's Kingdom has still to be established on earth.
      Your arguing that from the day sin first entered this world, God has not reigned on earth.

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      Yes - and when? "... so shall it be in the END of this AGE." (verse 40).
      Right. At the end of this age, He will gather out of His Kingdom all the ungodly. They're in it now, but not of it. Okay?

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      A son is born to a king. He is heir. His father dies but his people refuse him as king, and rebel. He must go into exile. Is he a rightful king? YES! Is that land and that people his? YES! Does he exercise his will on this land and this people? NO! He is a king without a Kingdom UNTIL he takes it back with military might.
      God doesn't die and Jesus exercised his will as King over his subjects when he came riding on a donkey and even before that and does now and always will. Talk about military might? Jesus defeated death.

      He that cometh from above is above all Jn.3:31

      And the baptizer didnt mean later. He meant Jesus is greater than me and all right now.

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      So also Jesus Christ. Is He Maker of all things? YES! Then He is also Owner of all things. But do the subjects living on earth bow to His will? NO! So one day He will topple the present government and rule with a rod of iron. Then every knee will bow - whether they agree or not. Until then, our Lord is a legitimate King waiting to receive the rulership over earth. "Thy will be doe on earth as it is in heaven", prays Jesus. If God's will was done on earth, why would Jesus pray for it to come?
      Answered already. The war that's currently being fought between Christ in us and the powers of darkness end when Christ returns. When believers are transformed, that's when unbelievers will see who the strong were, not will be.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

        Originally posted by journeyman View Post
        My life will never end, because Jesus is with me now.. And thinking mankind can end the life of God is a mistake.

        I know where eternal life comes from. Believers have it already and we are protected from all the power of the enemy, not just part of it.
        I doubt it. Ask Stephen, or James, or Peter or Paul. Their life ended and they were born again.

        Originally posted by journeyman View Post
        It has everything to do with it, because Jesus wasn't being defeated by the cross. Do you think sinners doing terrible things in OT times is evidence that God doesn't exist, or that he doesn't rule over them, simply because he doesn't put an end to them? Do you? Do you believe God doesn't rule over the wicked, just because the wicked hate God? If so, you better think again, because Jesus could have destroyed those hated him anytime he wanted to, but chose to show mercy.
        The discussion was NOT if God rules or not. It was whether His WILL is done on earth as it is in heaven. Consider this: God made a Covenant with "all flesh" (Gen.9:17). Man's part was to shed the blood of any man who illegally shed another man's blood. How many murders go unsolved worldwide? Is God's will being dome on earth. But from the return of Christ, God's will will be implemented and criminals will receive instant and commensurate retribution.

        Originally posted by journeyman View Post
        Because the desire of every believer should be that God's Kingdom is seen. His Kingdom is already here, but not seen by unbelievers (Lk.17:20-21). It appears only those born of his Spirit. Same thing with Gods will. He's saying, "Help us to do your will". You think God's will won't be done if sinners disobey him?
        You might want to read Luke 17:20-21 again. It is written in the future tense. And what future day is mentioned? That of Jeremiah 31:31-33 when God writes His Laws on the Israelite's heart and the Israelite keeps them.

        Originally posted by journeyman View Post
        Your arguing that from the day sin first entered this world, God has not reigned on earth.
        Actually, before sin entered by Adam. When God decided to make man He made him to, "... Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion ... ." (Genesis 1:28). Having to SUBDUE implies a rebellion in progress.

        Originally posted by journeyman View Post
        God doesn't die and Jesus exercised his will as King over his subjects when he came riding on a donkey and even before that and does now and always will. Talk about military might? Jesus defeated death.

        He that cometh from above is above all Jn.3:31

        And the baptizer didnt mean later. He meant Jesus is greater than me and all right now.
        Surely God does not die, and surely He does among men what He wants, but is His will done? And our Lord did not defeat death by military might. He defeated it by His intrinsic divine life. John 10:17-18 says;

        17 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
        18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."


        Answered already. The war that's currently being fought between Christ in us and the powers of darkness end when Christ returns. When believers are transformed, that's when unbelievers will see who the strong were, not will be.
        You say that Christ's Kingdom has come, but a war is in progress? Gentile leaders give orders for Christians to be killed and God to be blasphemed. Is Christ's Kingdom so ineffectual? Why! The kings of the nations do all manner of godlessness and nothing happens. Is this the Kingdom of Christ you look for? Or is the Kingdom you look for "righteousness, peace and joy in the holy Spirit" (Rom.14:17)

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

          Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

          Satan cast into pit------> 1000 years (firstfruit resurrection 144,000) ------> Second coming/First resurrection (rest of the dead believers)
          How is that the first resurrection when there was one before it? All the dead in Christ rise at the same time. It is not spilt into multiple resurrections. The resurrection only happens at the second coming which is before the thousand years.
          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            I doubt it. Ask Stephen, or James, or Peter or Paul. Their life ended and they were born again.
            The flesh was not their life,

            Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death." Jn.8:51

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            The discussion was NOT if God rules or not. It was whether His WILL is done on earth as it is in heaven.
            You said Christ isn't reigning yet and that his kingdom hasn't come and that God's will isn't being done. I disagree and gave you reasons why.

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            Consider this: God made a Covenant with "all flesh" (Gen.9:17). Man's part was to shed the blood of any man who illegally shed another man's blood.
            The purpose of the law is to convict all of sin. You're misinterpreting Genesis because you're looking at it apart from Christ.

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            How many murders go unsolved worldwide?
            None in God's eyes (Isa.29:15, Psa.139:12).

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            Is God's will being dome on earth. But from the return of Christ, God's will will be implemented and criminals will receive instant and commensurate retribution.
            It was God's will not to destroy me and you before we came to faith in Jesus,

            Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him, but it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God. Ecc.8:11-13

            You better believe Gods will is being done on earth and if we truly thought about the majesty of God, our knees would be knocking together.

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            You might want to read Luke 17:20-21 again. It is written in the future tense. And what future day is mentioned? That of Jeremiah 31:31-33 when God writes His Laws on the Israelite's heart and the Israelite keeps them.
            I don't need to reread Luke and Jer.31 is fulfilled by the Spirit of Jesus in us, because the law written in our hearts leads us to mercy,

            So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. Jn.8:7

            Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Rom.13:10

            This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them Heb.10:16

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            Actually, before sin entered by Adam. When God decided to make man He made him to, "... Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion ... ." (Genesis 1:28). Having to SUBDUE implies a rebellion in progress.
            The only rebellion before Adam was by sinning angels. Genesis 1 has a dual meaning.

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            Surely God does not die, and surely He does among men what He wants, but is His will done? And our Lord did not defeat death by military might. He defeated it by His intrinsic divine life. John 10:17-18 says;

            17 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
            18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."
            That was my point. I'm not the one supporting the idea of a future worldly military campaign against the devil and other sinners. You are.

            Jesus himself needed no assistance in defeating death because he is God and cannot die. He took pat in human nature so that our faith and hope would be in him (1Pet.1:21). The weapons of our warfare aren't worldly.

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            You say that Christ's Kingdom has come, but a war is in progress? Gentile leaders give orders for Christians to be killed and God to be blasphemed. Is Christ's Kingdom so ineffectual? Why! The kings of the nations do all manner of godlessness and nothing happens. Is this the Kingdom of Christ you look for? Or is the Kingdom you look for "righteousness, peace and joy in the holy Spirit" (Rom.14:17)
            Paul had righteousness, joy and peace in Christ When He wrote that letter.

            If we think God isn't doing anything against evil then we don't know Jesus very well. When we were living a godless lives, did nothing happen to us? Is Christ ineffectual to us? Who do we think we are?

            "And by the way Lord, how come you're not doing anything about those evil people? Oh....you mean me? No Lord...I meant those sinners....those evil people. I hope Jesus comes soon and starts reigning over them because they really need it!"

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

              Originally posted by journeyman View Post
              The flesh was not their life,

              Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death." Jn.8:51

              You said Christ isn't reigning yet and that his kingdom hasn't come and that God's will isn't being done. I disagree and gave you reasons why.


              The purpose of the law is to convict all of sin. You're misinterpreting Genesis because you're looking at it apart from Christ.

              None in God's eyes (Isa.29:15, Psa.139:12).

              It was God's will not to destroy me and you before we came to faith in Jesus,

              Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him, but it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God. Ecc.8:11-13

              You better believe Gods will is being done on earth and if we truly thought about the majesty of God, our knees would be knocking together.

              I don't need to reread Luke and Jer.31 is fulfilled by the Spirit of Jesus in us, because the law written in our hearts leads us to mercy,

              So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. Jn.8:7

              Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Rom.13:10

              This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them Heb.10:16

              The only rebellion before Adam was by sinning angels. Genesis 1 has a dual meaning.

              That was my point. I'm not the one supporting the idea of a future worldly military campaign against the devil and other sinners. You are.

              Jesus himself needed no assistance in defeating death because he is God and cannot die. He took pat in human nature so that our faith and hope would be in him (1Pet.1:21). The weapons of our warfare aren't worldly.

              Paul had righteousness, joy and peace in Christ When He wrote that letter.

              If we think God isn't doing anything against evil then we don't know Jesus very well. When we were living a godless lives, did nothing happen to us? Is Christ ineffectual to us? Who do we think we are?

              "And by the way Lord, how come you're not doing anything about those evil people? Oh....you mean me? No Lord...I meant those sinners....those evil people. I hope Jesus comes soon and starts reigning over them because they really need it!"
              Thanks for your reply. I've read it and noted what you have said.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                Rev 20
                4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

                1. The verse ONLY speaks of the martyred.
                2. They are martyred during a specific point in time. During the mark of the beast.
                3. Judgement has been given them thus they have been resurrected.
                These in Rev 20:4 were martyred before the mark of the beast. The mark of the beast came in power after the 1st dragon had overcome the saints in Rev 20:4. You can read this in Rev 13:7. These were outright killed and beheaded by the 1st dragon.

                This group (Rev 20:4) were disciples of Christ, beheaded from the time Christ was resurrection from the tomb until the day the beast is released from the pit. This is the 1000 year period referred to by John. It is all spelled out in Rev 13:7. From this point onward, the book of life is closed. No more names are going in at this point.

                The ones that were left that worshipped the 1st dragon, were those whose names were not written in the book of life. The dragon was given power over all whose names are not written in the book of life (verse 7 & 8).

                The ones who did take the mark of the beast, did so through deception and they were not christians.

                The ones who did not take the mark of the beast suffered greatly in famine of not being able to buy or sell.



                Rev 13
                5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
                6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
                7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
                8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
                9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
                10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
                11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
                12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
                13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
                14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
                15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
                16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
                17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                  Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                  These in Rev 20:4 were martyred before the mark of the beast.


                  Rev 20:4* And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.*

                  There is no reason to say dead people did not take the mark since that wouldn't have even been possible due to being dead. The mark was only for the living and that was to control buying and selling. The mention of not taking the mark absolutely means they refused to take it while alive and is part of the many reasons why they were beheaded.

                  The two prophets in Rev 11 are alive long past the existence of the mark so it was possible for people (who would eventually be martyred) to have lived to see the mark being given to people.These two simply were likely the last martyrs.
                  James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                    Rev 20:4* And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.*

                    There is no reason to say dead people did not take the mark since that wouldn't have even been possible due to being dead. The mark was only for the living and that was to control buying and selling. The mention of not taking the mark absolutely means they refused to take it while alive and is part of the many reasons why they were beheaded.

                    The two prophets in Rev 11 are alive long past the existence of the mark so it was possible for people (who would eventually be martyred) to have lived to see the mark being given to people.These two simply were likely the last martyrs.
                    The ones that followed after the beast were those whose names were not in the book of life. These in Rev 20:4 had their names written in the book of life.

                    I am simply saying that Rev 13 signifies that they were overcome by the 1st dragon, before the 2nd dragon developed the mark of the beast. Yes, they may have lived a little while into this period, but the bible suggests that they were overcome by the 1st dragon (Rev 13:7). These are a group of people that reigned with Christ 1000 years. There is not much reigning going on when the man of sin is revealed. By this time, the door to salvation is closed. Only a few in Christ will be alive and standing during this era in the end.

                    But regarding the two prophets, they were killed by the beast that ascended from the pit. So, we don't really know enough to say when they were killed within the 42 months. I have always believed that when the beast killed them, it was that act as what revealed the man of sin as son of perdition. But this is my opinion.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                      Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                      T
                      I am simply saying that Rev 13 signifies that they were overcome by the 1st dragon, before the 2nd dragon developed the mark of the beast.
                      There is only one dragon not two and neither beast of Rev 13 is described as a dragon. Rev 20 shows that the beheaded ones were killed when the mark of the beast did exist.


                      Yes, they may have lived a little while into this period, but the bible suggests that they were overcome by the 1st dragon (Rev 13:7). These are a group of people that reigned with Christ 1000 years.
                      That hasn't happened yet. Also, the first beast does not kill people before the first beast arrives. All it says it what it will do, not that it does those things before the second beast/false prophet arrives.



                      But regarding the two prophets, they were killed by the beast that ascended from the pit. So, we don't really know enough to say when they were killed within the 42 months.
                      Of course we do, they are killed and later resurrected and later that day the 42 months ends because the two beasts will be defeated by Christ.

                      I have always believed that when the beast killed them, it was that act as what revealed the man of sin as son of perdition.
                      They are killed 3.5 days before the second coming and people were happy they were killed so it didn't reveal anything to the deceived. Only the appearance of Christ will reveal the AC was a false god.
                      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                        There is only one dragon not two and neither beast of Rev 13 is described as a dragon. Rev 20 shows that the beheaded ones were killed when the mark of the beast did exist.
                        You are correct, he is a beast that spoke as a dragon. Indeed he was the false profit.



                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                        That hasn't happened yet. Also, the first beast does not kill people before the first beast arrives. All it says it what it will do, not that it does those things before the second beast/false prophet arrives.
                        You are making an assumption. It says the 1st beast overcame them and the 2nd beast came exercised the power of the 1st beast before him.

                        Rev 13
                        11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
                        12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.



                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                        Of course we do, they are killed and later resurrected and later that day the 42 months ends because the two beasts will be defeated by Christ.
                        It doesn't say the 2 witnesses were resurrected at the 1st resurrections or rapture of the church. You are making this assumption.

                        It only says, "after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."



                        Rev 11
                        8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
                        9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
                        10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
                        11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
                        12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                        They are killed 3.5 days before the second coming and people were happy they were killed so it didn't reveal anything to the deceived. Only the appearance of Christ will reveal the AC was a false god.

                        You are assuming this is the rapture when they ascended. The bible only says they were killed by the one that ascended from the pit. I am not sure this was the same 3-1/2 years. But perhaps you are correct.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                          Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                          You are correct, he is a beast that spoke as a dragon. Indeed he was the false profit.
                          Ok good. I was worried about the talk of multiple dragons


                          You are making an assumption. It says the 1st beast overcame them and the 2nd beast came exercised the power of the 1st beast before him.
                          But the overcoming of the saints can still be done under the rule of the FP simply by ordering the first beast to do the overcoming. The first beast is simply ten kings and kingdoms spanning 7 areas of land. They have armies and these would be used to arrest and kill whoever the FP wants dead.



                          It doesn't say the 2 witnesses were resurrected at the 1st resurrections or rapture of the church. You are making this assumption.
                          I never said anything about them being resurrected at the 1st resurrections or rapture of the church. They rise from the dead before the second coming begins. Not much time passes before it begins and the resurrection of all the dead in Christ happens though.

                          It only says, "after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."
                          And:

                          Rev 11:13* And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.*
                          Rev 11:14* The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.*

                          So basically maybe an hour passes between the two prophets rising and the 7th trump which announces the start of the second coming. Then the resurrection and rapture occur and Christ arrives with them and his angels.






                          You are assuming this is the rapture when they ascended.
                          Nope. I never mentioned the rapture because the two prophets rise before the rapture takes place. It's the same day but the prophets going up to heaven is not the rapture that involves the living saints being changed and lifted up to the clouds of the Earth.


                          The bible only says they were killed by the one that ascended from the pit. I am not sure this was the same 3-1/2 years. But perhaps you are correct.
                          It has to be because they rise to life the same day the 7th trump sounds and that is when Christ will return. The two beasts will no longer rule the world, but only over the armies they have and the last thing they are a part of is the battle of Armageddon although it's not really a battle in the traditional sense but a one sided slaughter. The important thing is the 7th trump signals their soon to happen defeat and anything that happened before that trump sounds is definitely part of the last end of the 42 months.
                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                            Originally posted by TMarcum View Post





                            You are making an assumption. It says the 1st beast overcame them and the 2nd beast came exercised the power of the 1st beast before him.


                            Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

                            Take note what this says....and they worshipped the beast

                            Now take note of what the following says.

                            Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
                            12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


                            and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

                            Chronologically then, how can the following already be true...and they worshipped the beast(Revelation 13:4)...before the following is even fulfilled first....and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed(Revelation 13:12)?

                            If the earth and them which dwell therein, were already initially worshiping the beast to begin with, why is the text then telling us that it's the 2nd beast that causeth them to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed?

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                            • #29
                              Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                              Originally posted by divaD View Post
                              Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

                              Take note what this says....and they worshipped the beast

                              Now take note of what the following says.

                              Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
                              12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


                              and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

                              Chronologically then, how can the following already be true...and they worshipped the beast(Revelation 13:4)...before the following is even fulfilled first....and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed(Revelation 13:12)?

                              If the earth and them which dwell therein, were already initially worshiping the beast to begin with, why is the text then telling us that it's the 2nd beast that causeth them to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed?
                              You may be correct. But still, the 1st dragon overcame them. And the one who worshiped the dragon was those whose names are not written in the book of life.

                              This is what the scripture says

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                              • #30
                                Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                                Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                                You may be correct. But still, the 1st dragon overcame them.
                                It's never called a dragon but says the dragon gave it power:

                                Rev 13:2* And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.*

                                Plus a dragon is a large serpent in the Greek, a snake. This beast is like a leopard, has bear feet and a mouth of a lion....none of that is a "dragon".

                                And the first beast is controlled by the second beast. It's like Hitler ordering someone to be killed. We can say the Nazi's killed them but it was also Hitler. It's the same here. The first beast overcomes the saints but that is still the other beast ultimately responsible because he is the leader of the first beast.
                                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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