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Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the dead

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  • #31
    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    Verse 5, the rest of the dead, are not meaning the rest of the believers.
    The thing is that it actually does. For they are raised at the first resurrection and are the "priests" of god and reign a 1000 years.

    If the the rest of the dead is not meaning believers then who are the priests? Where in rev 20 does it show the rest of the dead believers whom did not die a martyr's death?

    Do you not see a firstfruit resurrection of the 144,000 before the first resurrection seen in rev 14?

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    • #32
      Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
      How is that the first resurrection when there was one before it?
      The "first" resurrection denoted as "first" once Christ returns and at that time in Christ will rise first and the unsaved thereafter. We know it is not the first ever as many rose from the dead when Christ arose.

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      • #33
        Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

        Originally posted by divaD View Post
        If the earth and them which dwell therein, were already initially worshiping the beast to begin with, why is the text then telling us that it's the 2nd beast that causeth them to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed?
        The second beast adds a stipulation to the worship.

        15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

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        • #34
          Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

          Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
          The "first" resurrection denoted as "first" once Christ returns and at that time in Christ will rise first and the unsaved thereafter. We know it is not the first ever as many rose from the dead when Christ arose.
          The first resurrection is the first of two mass bodily resurrections. The dead in Christ rise first so all the dead in Christ rise at the same time, not just the beheaded ones Rev focuses on. That proves all of them come back to life when the beheaded do. Therefore "the rest of the dead" cannot include any believers because all believers are already resurrected. The rest of the dead are unbelievers and that's why they come from places like hell and death and the only fate shown is the LOF. No one is shown being praised and given white robes etc.
          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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          • #35
            Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

            Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
            The second beast adds a stipulation to the worship.

            15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
            But notice something though.

            Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

            At this point in time there is not yet any such thing as an image of the beast.

            Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
            14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

            But as of verse 14 there now is.

            15*And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
            16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
            17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

            And this is the same pattern we see in Rev 20:4.

            and which had not worshipped the beast(Revelation 13:12), neither his image(Revelation 13:14-15), neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 13:16)

            So no matter how one looks at that in Rev 20:4, none of those martyrs can be martyred before there is first a beast who rises out of the sea, and another out of the earth, and that Revelation 13:12-17 is fulfilled first since the 2nd beast is directly connected with the first beast, where one of it's heads had a deadly wound and was healed. According to Rev 13, no one can be martyred for not worshiping the beast, neither his image, etc, before or after the 42 months the first beast is allowed to continue. Rev 20:4 places the 42 month reign of the beast fulfilled and already in the past by the time satan is loosed after the thousand years. Therefore satan's loosing after the thousand years has no connection with the 42 month reign of the beast.

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            • #36
              Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

              Originally posted by divaD View Post
              But notice something though.

              Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

              At this point in time there is not yet any such thing as an image of the beast.

              Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
              14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

              But as of verse 14 there now is.

              15*And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
              16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
              17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

              And this is the same pattern we see in Rev 20:4.

              and which had not worshipped the beast(Revelation 13:12), neither his image(Revelation 13:14-15), neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 13:16)

              So no matter how one looks at that in Rev 20:4, none of those martyrs can be martyred before there is first a beast who rises out of the sea, and another out of the earth, and that Revelation 13:12-17 is fulfilled first since the 2nd beast is directly connected with the first beast, where one of it's heads had a deadly wound and was healed. According to Rev 13, no one can be martyred for not worshiping the beast, neither his image, etc, before or after the 42 months the first beast is allowed to continue. Rev 20:4 places the 42 month reign of the beast fulfilled and already in the past by the time satan is loosed after the thousand years. Therefore satan's loosing after the thousand years has no connection with the 42 month reign of the beast.
              This is scripturally correct. The little season is definitely after the GT is over, and after the thousand years is over. The "war" of the little season is a failure where they accomplish nothing. In the 42 months, Satan successfully rules the world through the two beasts and over come and kill the saints including the two prophets. Satan's army kills no one in the little season.
              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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              • #37
                Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                T Satan's army kills no one in the little season.
                That alone debunks a position such as Amil. Because what precedes the 2nd coming is the 42 month reign of the beast. And there for sure are martyrs during that period. The only possible way Amil can be the correct position, satan's little season after the thousand years, and the 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13, these would have to be one and the same. But how can they be when Rev 20:4 is already proving they are not?

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                • #38
                  Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                  Originally posted by divaD View Post
                  That alone debunks a position such as Amil. Because what precedes the 2nd coming is the 42 month reign of the beast. And there for sure are martyrs during that period. The only possible way Amil can be the correct position, satan's little season after the thousand years, and the 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13, these would have to be one and the same. But how can they be when Rev 20:4 is already proving they are not?
                  There is definitely no way to make the GT and the little season the same timeframe. The other thing is Armageddon is fought at the end of the 42 months and that's 66 miles from Jerusalem and they are defeated there, namely the two beasts and their armies. In the little season the battle is outside of Jerusalem not at Armageddon and again the army is defeated but the two beasts are not part of it because they are in the LOF before the armies are even raised by Satan. It's familiarity with the texts and the details within that allows one to see various errors in a doctrine. All these things support the Premil narrative because it follows what the bible says will happen.
                  James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                    The little season is definitely after the GT is over, and after the thousand years is over.
                    This shows the little season before the second coming and the 1000 years?

                    9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
                    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
                    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                      Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                      This shows the little season before the second coming and the 1000 years?

                      9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
                      10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
                      11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
                      No, the phrase "little season" is not used only for one period of time. This is a little season of waiting for vengeance until saints are killed in the great tribulation.
                      Satan being freed from the pit for a little season is different because the saints were already killed in the GT making that little season something happening at a later time.
                      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                        Originally posted by divaD View Post
                        That alone debunks a position such as Amil. Because what precedes the 2nd coming is the 42 month reign of the beast. And there for sure are martyrs during that period. The only possible way Amil can be the correct position, satan's little season after the thousand years, and the 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13, these would have to be one and the same. But how can they be when Rev 20:4 is already proving they are not?
                        The 1000 years and the GT are one in the same time frame. 1000 metaphorical years outside the realm as the GT 3.5 years is occurring on earth then the little season'

                        1260 days (GT) ------> little season ------> 1335 day.

                        The little season to be accurately a little season would need to be under 90 days.

                        4th seal is the GT, 5th seal is the little season. Rev 13 first beast GT 3.5 years. Second beast little season 1260 -1335.

                        Do you not see the little season happens before the 2nd coming..... are there two little seasons?

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                        • #42
                          Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                          Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                          The 1000 years and the GT are one in the same time frame.
                          Nope. The GT is when Satan is free to overcome the saints. The thousand years is when Satan is imprisoned and cannot overcome the saints. There really is no reason to confuse the two times.
                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                            Nope. The GT is when Satan is free to overcome the saints. The thousand years is when Satan is imprisoned and cannot overcome the saints. There really is no reason to confuse the two times.
                            But it is not satan himself overcoming the saints in the GT. satan gives the power to the beast to overcome the saints.

                            2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
                            3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
                            4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
                            5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
                            6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
                            7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                              But it is not satan himself overcoming the saints in the GT. satan gives the power to the beast to overcome the saints.
                              Same thing. Satan is free not in the pit at that time. We see that here as well:

                              Rev 16:13* And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.*
                              Rev 16:14* For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.*

                              It is not until this battle is over that Satan will be put in the pit, and his little season only occurs after he is released from the pit after the thousand years ends. The GT is over before the thousand years begins, the thousand years is over before Satan's little season starts.
                              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

                                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                                Same thing. Satan is free not in the pit at that time. We see that here as well:
                                So then if the beast comes up from the pit then so would Satan. Same thing.

                                7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

                                When was this beast put into the pit? The beast is put into the pit but not Satan?

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