Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

called to Postrib?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: called to Postrib?

    In 8 years on this Forum this subject has come up multiple times. And yet, if my memory serves me, no one has given an acceptable reason for the rapture. If that were established, surely that would shed much light on the various positions. Let's try to give a reason why 1st Thessalonians 4 reveals a "catching away" to the air and the clouds, and why we are to be "comforted" by this news (1st Thess.4:18).

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: called to Postrib?

      Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
      Though I agree with the reference to "that day", the problem is, "at hand" does not mean near/ imminent (eggus, G1451) as in the following:

      Verse list:
      Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is NEAR, even at the doors.
      Mar 13:29 KJV So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is NIGH, even at the doors.
      Luk 21:30-31 KJV When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now NIGH at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is NIGH at hand.

      But the words "at hand" is the word enistemi, G1764, which means, that it "is present". The day of Christ, being present, is not referring to a single day [such as the rapture, or 2nd advent], but is referring to a period of time. That period of time is referring to the revelation of the man of sin and the associated wrath. When Paul said, "now you know what is holding things up, (the falling away) ", it is this tidbit of info that Paul just gave them, that clarifies the matter, that is keeping him from being revealed, aka, the day of Christ. And because it is NOT a (single) day, but a period of time, the one that is being revealed, is not the DAY of the rapture or the DAY of the 2nd advent. It is the revealing of thee man of sin and not Christ that is preventing the day of Christ from coming. Paul is equating the day of Christ (as a period of time) with the revelation of the man of sin. This is expounded on in the remaining parts of 2 Thess 2 (from verse 7 and following) as the wrath of God, in the form of deception, being poured out on those who rejected the truth and instead had "pleasure in unrighteousness".

      Be Blessed
      The PuP
      I disagree. Paul is talking about a singular event--the coming of Christ for his saints. This is the event that some thought was either here or soon to take place. Paul denied that on the basis that an intervening event had to take place 1st, namely, the appearance of and the destruction of Antichrist. Christ's coming for his church had to be preceded by the revelation of Antichrist. In fact, Christ's coming would itself mark the time of Antichrist's destruction!

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: called to Postrib?

        Originally posted by Walls View Post
        In 8 years on this Forum this subject has come up multiple times. And yet, if my memory serves me, no one has given an acceptable reason for the rapture. If that were established, surely that would shed much light on the various positions. Let's try to give a reason why 1st Thessalonians 4 reveals a "catching away" to the air and the clouds, and why we are to be "comforted" by this news (1st Thess.4:18).
        We are to be comforted because we will miss Gods final judgement on the world as mentioned in revelation 20:9

        We are here for the tribulation on the church but not for Gods final wrath on the world

        The other reason for the rapture in explained in 1 Corinthians 15. We are raptured for the changing of our bodies splender so that we can enter heaven because those bodies of those who are raptured didn’t die

        1 Corinthians 15:40

        40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

        1 Corinthians 15:50-54
        50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: called to Postrib?

          First let me say that I agree with Pesachpup's point (in Post #8, last paragraph) about the word in 2Th2:2 being "IS PRESENT" (however, I disagree that the phrase there is "the day of Christ," but instead is "the day of the Lord"... tho I agree that it is speaking of a PERIOD OF TIME). Just thought I'd mention that, before I post what I really came on here to put

          An excerpt from an article by Paul Wilson (Bible Truth Publishers), this portion being about Ladd [with some caveats regarding the other parts of the article, for I disagree somewhat with P Wilson that ANY part of the Olivet Discourse is covering the Subject of "the Church which is His body" or "our Rapture/Departure" at all--fairly minor point though]

          [quoting that excerpt]

          "In an article of Dr. Ladd's published in Eternity magazine of May, 1957, wherein he attempts to answer Dr. John F. Walvoord's new book, The Rapture Question, he says: "In the Old Testament, Israel was the people of God; now, it is the church; and there is continuity rather than discontinuity between the two. There is one people of God, not two. This truth is clearly set forth in Rom. 11. There is one olive tree — the people of God. Natural branches have been broken off—unbelieving Israel. Wild branches have been grafted on—believing Gentiles." And this he makes out to be the ekklesia, or Church of God. This is a ready-made example of the confusion Christians get into by rejecting dispensational truth. How readily he mixes Israel and the Church. They never were one, or intended to be one. Israel will be God's earthly people of the future, but the Church will be the heavenly bride of Christ.

          "Let us notice Dr. Ladd's confusion regarding Rom. 11. He says the olive tree there represents the one people of God. This it does not. The olive tree there is the tree of privilege and blessing on the earth. Surely Israel had many advantages—"much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." Rom. 3:2. They were cut off, but not until after they rejected the gospel sent down from a glorified Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. The Gentiles have been brought into the privileged place. They have the advantage today, for there is no veil over their hearts. But the branches which are grafted in are not believing Gentiles, but Gentiles as Gentiles. If this is not so, will Dr. Ladd say that believing Gentiles who have been brought into this "one people of God" are to be cut off? Will he allow believers to be utterly lost? Yet his statements make that a necessity. His arguments are bankrupt.

          "When the Apostle began to speak about the olive tree, he said, "For I speak to you Gentiles" (v. 13). Thus there is no excuse for the confusion of supposing he was speaking to believers among them. How could he say to a believer, "Thou shalt be cut off." Down in the 25th verse he began to explain truth to believers, and his form of address changed to, "I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery." But rejecters of dispensational truth have not learned what Paul sought to explain to his brethren in the remainder of the 11th chapter of Romans. It is a marvelous unfolding of God's wisdom in His dispensational dealings with Jew and Gentile which leads the Apostle into a grand doxology: "0 the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!" etc.

          "Characteristic of those who reject dispensational truth, Dr. Ladd rejects what to us seems quite patent; that is, the dispensational nature of Matthew's Gospel. Each of the four gospels has its own specialty, or distinctive mark; […]"

          --Paul Wilson, Dispensationalism: Part 1 ; https://bibletruthpublishers.com/dis...wilson/la96777

          [more at link... perhaps better showing Ladd's "differences" from what I hold to be true under this subject of eschatology; I just tried to pick a small enough portion to "fit" in this post within "allowable" parameters ]

          [end quoting excerpt]

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: called to Postrib?

            Originally posted by marty fox View Post
            We are to be comforted because we will miss Gods final judgement on the world as mentioned in revelation 20:9

            We are here for the tribulation on the church but not for Gods final wrath on the world

            The other reason for the rapture in explained in 1 Corinthians 15. We are raptured for the changing of our bodies splender so that we can enter heaven because those bodies of those who are raptured didn’t die

            1 Corinthians 15:40

            40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

            1 Corinthians 15:50-54
            50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
            But the Tribulation is the wrath of God. It is mentioned in Revelation 6:16, 6:17, 11:18, 14:10, 14:19, 15:1, 15:7, 16:1, 16:19, 19:15 - that is, not just at Armageddon. Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:21 give the starting point of Great Tribulation such as the world has never seen, nor will see, as the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel. And whatever your understanding is of Daniel 9, one thing is not disputed. The Abomination is at midpoint of the last "seven". Thus, the battle of Armageddon is the wrath of God, but it is localized to the Valley of Jezreel - not the whole earth. Rather, it is the 10 other mentions of the "Wrath of God" that accompany the seals etc., that form the Great Tribulation.

            The Wrath of God IS the Great Tribulation. How can we be "comforted" if we are to face God's Wrath?

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: called to Postrib?

              Originally posted by Walls View Post
              But the Tribulation is the wrath of God. It is mentioned in Revelation 6:16, 6:17, 11:18, 14:10, 14:19, 15:1, 15:7, 16:1, 16:19, 19:15 - that is, not just at Armageddon. Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:21 give the starting point of Great Tribulation such as the world has never seen, nor will see, as the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel. And whatever your understanding is of Daniel 9, one thing is not disputed. The Abomination is at midpoint of the last "seven". Thus, the battle of Armageddon is the wrath of God, but it is localized to the Valley of Jezreel - not the whole earth. Rather, it is the 10 other mentions of the "Wrath of God" that accompany the seals etc., that form the Great Tribulation.

              The Wrath of God IS the Great Tribulation. How can we be "comforted" if we are to face God's Wrath?
              We view things very differently in end times I see the great tribulation different than the wrath of God I see the great tribulation as starting on the day Stephen was martyred and still happening today but the church but the church is spared from the wrath of God

              Besides all of that I believe 1 Corinthians 15 answers your question about the reason of the rapture

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: called to Postrib?

                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                In 8 years on this Forum this subject has come up multiple times. And yet, if my memory serves me, no one has given an acceptable reason for the rapture. If that were established, surely that would shed much light on the various positions. Let's try to give a reason why 1st Thessalonians 4 reveals a "catching away" to the air and the clouds, and why we are to be "comforted" by this news (1st Thess.4:18).
                Here's some of my thoughts on that then. Usually when a wife is to eventually wed a husband, they are not to live together first, but instead are to be married first, then live together. Pretrib has all of this backwards. They have the wife to be, living with the husband to be, before the marriage even takes place. That aside. According to Rev 19 we observe the following takes place first.

                Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
                12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
                13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
                14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


                Verse 14 states this... And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses. Is that meaning heaven where Christ just descended from in verse 11, or is that meaning heaven, such as in the air?

                1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
                17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

                The text indicates that once all are gathered to Christ in the air, all then shall ever be with the Lord from that point forward.

                What then does Rev 19 show Christ doing after He descends from heaven? Does it show Him making a u turn and returning to heaven? No, it shows Him being followed by His armies, descending to take on the beast and it's armies. So where did Christ's armies come from? I would think 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 gives us a pretty good idea.

                For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout. Even though Revelation 19:11 makes no mention of a shout, this in Rev 19:11 still has to be referring to this in 1 Thessalonians 4:16... For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout.

                If in Rev 19:11 that is not depicting Christ descending from heaven, what is it depicting then? Does Christ descend from heaven more than one time?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: called to Postrib?

                  Originally posted by marty fox View Post
                  We view things very differently in end times I see the great tribulation different than the wrath of God I see the great tribulation as starting on the day Stephen was martyred and still happening today but the church but the church is spared from the wrath of God

                  Besides all of that I believe 1 Corinthians 15 answers your question about the reason of the rapture
                  OK. Let's leave the "wrath" question and deal with 1st Corinthians 15. You wrote;

                  Originally posted by marty fox View Post
                  The other reason for the rapture in explained in 1 Corinthians 15. We are raptured for the changing of our bodies splender so that we can enter heaven because those bodies of those who are raptured didn’t die

                  1 Corinthians 15:40

                  40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

                  1 Corinthians 15:50-54
                  50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
                  But if you follow the sequence in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 it gives it as those who are living being changed at the last Trump. And in 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 we find that trump again in verse 16; "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." That is, if we are changed at the trump, the Rapture occurs AFTER the change. Verse 17 starts with, "Then ... " indicating a sequence that the Rapture occurs AFTER the dead rise and After the living are changed. The change is to give us the same glorified bodies as the resurrected. The Rapture only "catches away" (harpazo - lit Gk.). Catching away is not changing. Philip was caught away in Acts 8:39 but he did not change.

                  So our putting on of incorruptible and immortal bodies is not the reason for the Rapture.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: called to Postrib?

                    Originally posted by divaD View Post
                    Here's some of my thoughts on that then. Usually when a wife is to eventually wed a husband, they are not to live together first, but instead are to be married first, then live together. Pretrib has all of this backwards. They have the wife to be, living with the husband to be, before the marriage even takes place. That aside. According to Rev 19 we observe the following takes place first.

                    Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
                    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
                    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
                    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


                    Verse 14 states this... And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses. Is that meaning heaven where Christ just descended from in verse 11, or is that meaning heaven, such as in the air?

                    1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
                    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

                    The text indicates that once all are gathered to Christ in the air, all then shall ever be with the Lord from that point forward.

                    What then does Rev 19 show Christ doing after He descends from heaven? Does it show Him making a u turn and returning to heaven? No, it shows Him being followed by His armies, descending to take on the beast and it's armies. So where did Christ's armies come from? I would think 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 gives us a pretty good idea.

                    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout. Even though Revelation 19:11 makes no mention of a shout, this in Rev 19:11 still has to be referring to this in 1 Thessalonians 4:16... For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout.

                    If in Rev 19:11 that is not depicting Christ descending from heaven, what is it depicting then? Does Christ descend from heaven more than one time?
                    I agree with your thoughts except for your take on marriage. But let me not address that for the sake of the rest. In Revelation 19 the Lord returns with some saints. How did they get there? There is only one way - the Rapture of 1st Thessalonians 4. And 1st Thessalonians 4 says so in verse 14. Verses 15 onward tell how they got to be in the air. But this presents you with a problem. If the Second Coming of the Lord is, as Revelation 19 says, to fight at Armageddon, and He already has saints with Him, then the Rapture of these saints must take place BEFORE the end of the Tribulation. So a POST-Tribulation Rapture is out of the question - "POST" meaning AFTER.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: called to Postrib?

                      Originally posted by randyk View Post
                      I disagree. Paul is talking about a singular event--the coming of Christ for his saints. This is the event that some thought was either here or soon to take place. Paul denied that on the basis that an intervening event had to take place 1st, namely, the appearance of and the destruction of Antichrist. Christ's coming for his church had to be preceded by the revelation of Antichrist. In fact, Christ's coming would itself mark the time of Antichrist's destruction!
                      In your lightbulb moment, you stated that (in light of the whole of 2 Thess 2) PRETRIB could not be true:

                      "But having adopted, through my pastor and friends, the Pretrib position, I could *not* justify THAT POSITION based on what I had memorized in 2 Thessalonians.*

                      And apparently the only alternative that you compared the post-trib position to was the pretrib position.

                      In regards to whether the day of Christ was imminent or whether it was [already] here, which one do you adhere to? Your words seem to think that Paul was addressing both. To reiterate, you said that 2 Thess 2 clearly teaches post-trib. So, I asked you to clearly explain (exegete) how that it does, but you only give me what post-tribbers, like yourself believe, WITHOUT referring to any scripture whatsoever. Forget that pretrib is wrong. Show us how 2 Thess 2 teaches post-trib. I agree with you that Paul tells them of a necessary "intervening event" that must take place first before.... But the necessary intervening event that Paul was pointing to is the event that precedes the revelation of the man of sin, and not the revelation of Christ. Here is a host of scriptures that says that Paul is addressing an event that was both, in the past and ongoing, but not imminent.

                      2 Thessalonians 2:2

                      KJV That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

                      BBE That you may not be moved in mind or troubled by a spirit, or by a word, or by a letter as from us, with the suggestion that the day of the Lord is even now come;

                      EasyEnglish You must not let yourselves become confused or afraid easily because of false messages about the Lord’s return. Those messages say that the day of the Lord has already happened. Perhaps somebody might say that God’s Spirit has shown him a message like that. Or somebody might report that we said it. Or they might say that we wrote it in a letter.

                      ISV not to be so quickly upset or alarmed when someone claims that we said, either by some spirit, conversation, or letter that the Day of the Lord has already come.

                      NET not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.

                      NHEB not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of the Lord had come.

                      SLT For you not to be quickly shaken in mind, neither be disturbed, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle as by us, as that the day of Christ has drawn near.

                      WEB not to be quickly shaken in your mind, and not be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as if from us, saying that the day of Christ has already come.

                      YLT that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;

                      EMTV not to be quickly shaken from your mind, nor be disturbed, neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ has come.

                      KJV That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

                      LOGOS not to be quickly shaken from your mind, nor be disturbed, neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ has come.

                      T4T that you think calmly about any message that claims/says that the Lord has already come again. Do not be shaken or alarmed/worried by any such message. It does not matter if it is a message that someone claims God's Spirit revealed to him, or if it is some other message that someone has spoken, or whether it is a message that someone claims that I wrote in a letter.

                      Be Blessed
                      The PuP

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: called to Postrib?

                        Originally posted by randyk View Post
                        They persisted on preaching Pretribulationsim from the pulpit, and in Bible Studies. But they never had any answers to my Postrib position when I spelled it out in Bible studies. I would much rather argue substance than a "calling!"
                        Randy,

                        Taking this as just an opportunity to subscribe (instead of using the menu way). Read you post and will address parts later.

                        Here is my discussion item: The Bible informs us that we don't know the time of Jesus' return, "like a thief in the night" style of covertly returning. But based on prophecy, we know the exact length of the period that is called the Tribulation. Once that period begins, like a countdown clock... we KNOW the time Jesus returns. So when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation, this will NOT be covertly like a thief in the night.

                        So what event is Jesus involved with that is "like a thief in the night?"
                        Slug1--out

                        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: called to Postrib?

                          Originally posted by Walls View Post
                          I agree with your thoughts except for your take on marriage. But let me not address that for the sake of the rest. In Revelation 19 the Lord returns with some saints. How did they get there? There is only one way - the Rapture of 1st Thessalonians 4. And 1st Thessalonians 4 says so in verse 14. Verses 15 onward tell how they got to be in the air. But this presents you with a problem. If the Second Coming of the Lord is, as Revelation 19 says, to fight at Armageddon, and He already has saints with Him, then the Rapture of these saints must take place BEFORE the end of the Tribulation. So a POST-Tribulation Rapture is out of the question - "POST" meaning AFTER.
                          This does not present a problem with Post trib though. Let's assume some of the armies seen coming with Christ after heaven is opened, that they were already in heaven with Him before this event. What might explain it then? A Pretrib rapture? Not necessarily. Let's look at the following text.

                          1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


                          What does the text say?

                          Does it say this? For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus, plus the church that was raptured Pretrib, will God bring with him.

                          Or does it instead only say this? For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

                          The point would then be, if there is anyone already in heaven with Jesus when heaven opens in Rev 19, and that they then follow behind Him, it would be meaning the dead n Christ who rise first, since that is the only group the text indicates God will bring with Him when He comes.

                          1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

                          These would then be caught up with Christ and the dead in Christ that rose first, and together they form Christ's armies seen following behind Him in order to take on the beast and it's armies.

                          Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

                          Since this says armies rather than army, in heaven seems to imply these armies were formed in the air once the raptured church joined the dead in Christ who rise first. So the more I think on it, in heaven doesn't seem to be meaning heaven where Christ has been residing for the past 2000 years, but might be meaning in the air instead. Even if it is instead meaning heaven where Christ has been dwelling for the past 2000 years, still 1 Thessalonians 4:14 would explain who these are meaning.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: called to Postrib?

                            Hi randy k. thanks for sharing yourpost on the post trib.


                            I started out as a pre trib rapturebeliever in 1997. It was the only view I know. I had read JohnHagee's book The coming of the antichrist teaching the pre tribrapture. I also read Pat Robertson's book the new order. This wasabout how quickly the world is getting globalized and how banks worketc.


                            I also read end times for dummies. Thatsupports pre trib rapture. Then I was following Ed Hindson and TimLaHayes on the program Christ is coming and was getting their weeklyor monthly letters. I was following Jack van Impe too. All of themare all pre trib rapture believers and also teach it.


                            On one Christian forum called JILGJesus is Lord God (not open anymore) I was challenged by the members.I wrote to Tim LaHayes to ask for help. He said he does not getinvolve with forums. So I was on my own . . one member named Billsent me links for post trib. I deleted them thinking that Tim LaHayesand Hal Lyndsay etc can't be wrong.


                            It was a couple of years later I alsoread 2nd Thess. chapter 2. and then I realized the pretrib rapture is not the true teaching. I was now from there a posttrib believer.


                            By knowing then post trib now I feel Iam set free. To know truth is better to believe an answer that soundmore appealing . .


                            I have been witnessing to friends aboutpost trib. Some believe and others had run off or don't want to hearpost trib at all. .


                            There is no such teaching in the bibleof a pre trib rapture. That is all assumptions and speculation. Plusextrapolations and analogies they use . . However the bible saysplainly that the church and or ekklesia God's people will go throughthe trib. Who is being persecuted? The saints. It never has anothermeaning to saints or the church. . Don't say we are leaving and itwill be other saints. No exclamation. It is you not anyone else. Thatis if you are one of God's people. This is the days of Jacobstroubles and the days of great testing.


                            God is testing your faith whom, willyou follow the Antichrist beast or Jesus as your Lord and Savior?
                            If God allows Satan now to tests youGod will also allow then for Satan to test you on a greater scalethough .


                            The wrath will not fall upon you. AsGod spared his people in the 10 plagues of Egypt even in the greattrib the bowls and trumpets will only be poured out on non believersand the wicked.


                            Put all your trust and faith in God. Heknows how to direct his judgment. He did this in Egypt thousands ofyears ago. Were they out of Egypt when the10 plagues were there. Seethey were in the same land because God is able do all things.


                            You don't worry about God. But only thebeast system and the Antichrist and false prophet only. .


                            Also I am going to share a link of thepre trib rapture history. When you read how it actually developed youwill realize it cant' be true after all. . The pre trib is a teachingof apostasy the falling away. Post trib has always been taught everysingle century until the 19th. Read this link and find more. If thislink isn't working let let me know . And I will send to your box ifyou have any problems seeing this sermon of pretrib history.


                            If you are waiting for a rapture beforethe trib then you are waiting for nothing at all. The very proof isthe bible and what God really says on this . I have more good linksif you want more detail on post trib rapture teaching. . The Lordwants you to know the truth and not to be deceived. They are falseprophets Tim LaHayes etc. You thought as I did genuinely. Well itseemed that way for years. Now I know better. I hope other Christianswill now understand Christians will go through the trib.


                            Thanks again Randy k for starting thisgood post to make awareness for other Christian believers. I am alsogoing to order one of those books you have mentioned. .
                            Randy k may I ask what church you goto? Send a pm if you need. I like reading church statement of faithetc . As for me I only do home studies the bible and Christian books.


                            http://www.posttribpeople.com/Post-T...on-Belief.html'

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: called to Postrib?

                              Originally posted by Walls View Post
                              In 8 years on this Forum this subject has come up multiple times. And yet, if my memory serves me, no one has given an acceptable reason for the rapture. If that were established, surely that would shed much light on the various positions. Let's try to give a reason why 1st Thessalonians 4 reveals a "catching away" to the air and the clouds, and why we are to be "comforted" by this news (1st Thess.4:18).
                              On the contrary, several times I offered the reason for the Rapture. It has to do with establishing a heavenly authority of men over the earth in glorified bodies, so that the promises God made to Abraham would be fulfilled, to have a multitude of nations for God, to have the knowledge of God cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: called to Postrib?

                                Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                                First let me say that I agree with Pesachpup's point (in Post #8, last paragraph) about the word in 2Th2:2 being "IS PRESENT" (however, I disagree that the phrase there is "the day of Christ," but instead is "the day of the Lord"... tho I agree that it is speaking of a PERIOD OF TIME). Just thought I'd mention that, before I post what I really came on here to put

                                An excerpt from an article by Paul Wilson (Bible Truth Publishers), this portion being about Ladd [with some caveats regarding the other parts of the article, for I disagree somewhat with P Wilson that ANY part of the Olivet Discourse is covering the Subject of "the Church which is His body" or "our Rapture/Departure" at all--fairly minor point though]

                                [quoting that excerpt]

                                "In an article of Dr. Ladd's published in Eternity magazine of May, 1957, wherein he attempts to answer Dr. John F. Walvoord's new book, The Rapture Question, he says: "In the Old Testament, Israel was the people of God; now, it is the church; and there is continuity rather than discontinuity between the two. There is one people of God, not two. This truth is clearly set forth in Rom. 11. There is one olive tree — the people of God. Natural branches have been broken off—unbelieving Israel. Wild branches have been grafted on—believing Gentiles." And this he makes out to be the ekklesia, or Church of God. This is a ready-made example of the confusion Christians get into by rejecting dispensational truth. How readily he mixes Israel and the Church. They never were one, or intended to be one. Israel will be God's earthly people of the future, but the Church will be the heavenly bride of Christ.

                                "Let us notice Dr. Ladd's confusion regarding Rom. 11. He says the olive tree there represents the one people of God. This it does not. The olive tree there is the tree of privilege and blessing on the earth. Surely Israel had many advantages—"much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." Rom. 3:2. They were cut off, but not until after they rejected the gospel sent down from a glorified Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. The Gentiles have been brought into the privileged place. They have the advantage today, for there is no veil over their hearts. But the branches which are grafted in are not believing Gentiles, but Gentiles as Gentiles. If this is not so, will Dr. Ladd say that believing Gentiles who have been brought into this "one people of God" are to be cut off? Will he allow believers to be utterly lost? Yet his statements make that a necessity. His arguments are bankrupt.

                                "When the Apostle began to speak about the olive tree, he said, "For I speak to you Gentiles" (v. 13). Thus there is no excuse for the confusion of supposing he was speaking to believers among them. How could he say to a believer, "Thou shalt be cut off." Down in the 25th verse he began to explain truth to believers, and his form of address changed to, "I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery." But rejecters of dispensational truth have not learned what Paul sought to explain to his brethren in the remainder of the 11th chapter of Romans. It is a marvelous unfolding of God's wisdom in His dispensational dealings with Jew and Gentile which leads the Apostle into a grand doxology: "0 the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!" etc.

                                "Characteristic of those who reject dispensational truth, Dr. Ladd rejects what to us seems quite patent; that is, the dispensational nature of Matthew's Gospel. Each of the four gospels has its own specialty, or distinctive mark; […]"

                                --Paul Wilson, Dispensationalism: Part 1 ; https://bibletruthpublishers.com/dis...wilson/la96777

                                [more at link... perhaps better showing Ladd's "differences" from what I hold to be true under this subject of eschatology; I just tried to pick a small enough portion to "fit" in this post within "allowable" parameters ]

                                [end quoting excerpt]
                                This subject could easily have its own thread. I partly agree and partly disagree. I do distinguish Israel from the Church, and that's because any nation would be distinguished from the Church. For example, the US would be distinguished from the Church. The Church is not strictly a "nation." Rather, it consists of a group of all believing nations and of all believers within unbelieving nations. Israel is not presently a believing nation, but will be, one day, a believing nation. For the present, there are believers within the "nation" Israel.

                                When we're talking about "cutting believers off," this applied to Israel as a believing nation and applies to any nation of believers and to any individual believer. When they do not walk by the rules that define Christianity, they are cut off.

                                In the same way, those who refused to abide by the Law of Moses in ancient Israel were cut off from the community. Being cut off did not infer "damnation," but it certainly could. Paul's argument was that no matter how many in Israel were cut off for not living by the rules of God, a new nation of believers would be established, just as any repentant backslider could be reinstated in the community of believers.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X