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  • #46
    Re: called to Postrib?

    Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    what day?

    The DOTL from *VERSE 2* (NOT the Subject from *VERSE 1*! )



    It is a common belief that the "revealing" (of the man of sin) has to do with VERSE 4 (which is associated time-wise with both Matt24:15,21 AND Rev13:5-7 [and other mentions of the second half of the trib, aka "the GREAT tribulation"]), but when we view the THREE mentions of "revealed" (regarding the man of sin), we can see this is not the case; that, in fact, 2Th2 is covering ALL SEVEN YEARS, its "BEGINNING," its "MIDDLE," AND its "END" (just like does:

    --Daniel 9:27a,b,c[26]'s "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END" of the "ONE WEEK [7-yrs]"; and

    --the "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END" of the "chronology" of The Revelation [Rev6:2, Rev13:5-7, Rev19]; and

    --the "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END" of the Olivet Discourse [Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'," Matt24:15,21, and Matt24:29-31(etc) [ALL of which FOLLOWS our Rapture] )


    I've posted before, the color-coded grammar chart showing the THREE TIMES in this 2Th2 context that the SEQUENCE of our Rapture/The Departure *FIRST* takes place BEFORE "the DOTL" (all of the above-mentioned "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END" [of the 7-yrs]) "IN THE NIGHT" aspect covers; the DOTL goes on to encompass His 2nd Coming to the earth AND the 1000-yr reign as well! ALL of that! (Its ARRIVAL is at the START of the 7-yr trib, tho, which involves the "whose coming" [i.e. ARRIVAL] of the "man of sin" and then also ALL he will DO throughout those 7 yrs, as well!)

    It's getting late, so I won't bother to post the color-coded grammar chart I've posted before, here.
    Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come

    I'm sure you can find ways to split up the 3 events
    A) the coming of our Lord
    B) our gathering
    C) the day of the Lord

    However the most apparent reading of the text is that they are all associated together as the same moment.

    The same situation exists in Matthew 24 when a gathering of the saints is associated with the second coming and the end of the world.

    The same situation exists in 1 Thess 4/5 when our gathering is associated with the second coming and the day of the Lord.

    The theme is consistent, and only complicated preconceived viewpoints would start to separate out those 3 events

    For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: called to Postrib?

      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
      Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come

      I'm sure you can find ways to split up the 3 events
      A) the coming of our Lord
      B) our gathering
      C) the day of the Lord

      However the most apparent reading of the text is that they are all associated together as the same moment.

      The same situation exists in Matthew 24 when a gathering of the saints is associated with the second coming and the end of the world.

      The same situation exists in 1 Thess 4/5 when our gathering is associated with the second coming and the day of the Lord.

      The theme is consistent, and only complicated preconceived viewpoints would start to separate out those 3 events

      For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
      Yes, it is the Law of Occam's Razor--simpler is the more likely.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: called to Postrib?

        Originally posted by randyk View Post
        I don't think it's entirely fair for someone to argue a position simply claiming he is called to do so. And yet there is one here who claims to be called into the field of eschatology, and thus owns all rights to interpret biblical eschatology as Pretribulational.


        And so, I'm returning the favor, if for no other reason than to show the shallowness of such an assertion. I will likewise claim I'm "called" to the field of eschatology, and to the Postribulational position. I in fact believe this, but I certainly don't base my arguments strictly on a claimed "calling." You will find that the arguments themselves are a more compelling way for me to argue my case.


        I could give you an entire testimony as to how I came to a Postrib position. I will just give you scant details. In around 1972 my brother had attended the teaching of Bill Gothard, who at the time was encouraging Christians to memorize the Bible. For some reason, my brother preached to me for a long time about my need to memorize Scriptures. I did so. One of the portions of Scriptures I memorized was the book of 2 Thessalonians.


        After memorizing this book I was surprised that it taught, explicitly, the Postrib position. Up to that time I had been taught the Pretrib position by friends in the Jesus/Charismatic Movement. The position I was raised up in never mentioned Pretribulationism. But having adopted, through my pastor and friends, the Pretrib position, I could *not* justify that position based on what I had memorized in 2 Thessalonians.


        The following year or so I made my way to the state of CA, where I found myself listening to a Pretrib teacher on the radio. He had written a commentary on Revelation, and I began to doubt my new-found Postribulationism. I felt I couldn't be smarter than this man! I began to reconsider whether Pretribulationism was right.


        So I found myself in utter confusion on the subject, and headed for the bookstore that my church had--it was a Pretrib church, but they had a school of theology, and I expected the bookstore to assist me on the matter. When I looked in the store, a fellow customer came up to me and asked what I was looking for. I told him I wanted to compare the Postrib position with the Pretrib position. He pointed out 2 books to me, which I purchased. They were books by Robert Gundry and George Ladd--what I later realized were 2 classics on the Postrib position in recent times.


        I returned to a firm belief in the Postrib position, and wondered why I had had so much confusion when Ladd and Gundry made the issue so clear to me? I felt that God had spoken to me through His word in 2 Thessalonians earlier, and I had simply chosen to doubt it, due to the radio teacher's influence.


        I've now been an advocate for Postribulationism for decades, despite the fact I still attend Pretrib churches. My church's denominations requires belief in Pretribulationism.

        Most of my friends are therefore Pretrib in their eschatology. But in reality, none of them wants to even talk to me about the subject. My pastors, who recently resigned, both claimed they wanted to talk to me about it, but never responded to my phone or email messages. They had even given me their email addresses, claiming they wanted to talk to me about it, but never ever responded to my emails.

        They persisted on preaching Pretribulationsim from the pulpit, and in Bible Studies. But they never had any answers to my Postrib position when I spelled it out in Bible studies. I would much rather argue substance than a "calling!"
        One has the right to be wrong, but teaching it to others will bring a talking to by God when you get to Heaven. Satan loves to sow confusion.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: called to Postrib?

          Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
          One has the right to be wrong, but teaching it to others will bring a talking to by God when you get to Heaven. Satan loves to sow confusion.
          Indeed he does. But Christians have the power and authority to dispose of that confusion, if so desired. Let's not argue by claiming a "calling." Let's just argue our points. If we love God supremely, and if we truly love one another, we will do whatever it takes to get things straightened out. God has been very patient with us. We need to be patient with one another.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: called to Postrib?

            It seems that no one here, [or in my Church[ is interested in considering the actual prophesied; alternative end times scenario.
            It is the migration to and living in all of the holy Land, of every faithful Christian person; soon after the imminent terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.

            The leader of the One World Govt, later to be revealed as the Anti-Christ, will come to us and negotiate a 7 year peace treaty. He will do this when he sees how the Lord wipes out the armies of Gog/Magog.
            Much more happens, all detailed in the prophesies, but the basic picture precludes any 'rapture to heaven' of anyone at any time. When Jesus Returns to the earth, He will gather His people to Him, just as Matthew 24:30-31 tells us.

            It seems that no one here, [or in my Church[ is interested in considering the actual prophesied; alternative end times scenario.
            It is the migration to and living in all of the holy Land, of every faithful Christian person; soon after the imminent terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.

            The leader of the One World Govt, later to be revealed as the Anti-Christ, will come to us and negotiate a 7 year peace treaty. He will do this when he sees how the Lord wipes out the armies of Gog/Magog.
            Much more happens, all detailed in the prophesies, but the basic picture precludes any 'rapture to heaven' of anyone at any time. When Jesus Returns to the earth, He will gather His people to Him, just as Matthew 24:30-31 tells us.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: called to Postrib?

              Originally posted by randyk View Post
              I note that you select whichever phrase you want to fit wherever. A "day" becomes a "time period."
              I disagree, but have pointed out how scripture itself refers to that particular phrase as "a period of time" rather than a mere 24-hr day.

              I disagree with the Amill-teaching's "made-up" definition (disregarding how the prophetic word itself uses/defines the term).


              A "coming" must only be a "thief."
              It's almost as if you've overlooked what I'd actually said, here.


              The "day of Christ" can only refer to Christ's coming, but not to the Day of the Lord, which means something else.
              "The Day of the Lord" is a time period (including JUDGMENTS and followed by BLESSING) and ONLY EVER takes place ON THE EARTH; and was prophesied as part of what Acts 3:21 is saying [is an aspect of] "all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [i.e. OT prophecies, concerning ALSO His Second Coming to the earth, the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" included, but also involves negatives preceding the blessing--the Thessalonians wrongly believed "the DOTL *IS PRESENT*" as a REASONABLE idea, BECAUSE of their PRESENT and ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE things they were ONGOINGLY EXPERIENCING]

              "The Day of Christ" is when WE ('the Church which is His body') is UP THERE *WITH [G4862 - UNIONED-with] HIM (which "WITH" word is an entirely distinct idea from...

              the "WITH [G3326]" word used of the PLURAL "10 [or even 5] Virgins" who ACCOMPANY Him into the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [the EARTHLY MK age] upon His RETURN to the earth, they never having lifted off the earth, and being "still-alive" at that point, will ENTER the MK in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children [just as in Noah's day; see Dan2:35 comp. w/ Gen9:1 "FILL/FILLED the [whole] earth"]); Noah and the ark being a "type" of those who exist in and come through the trib years (whereas "Enoch" is a "type" of "the Church which is His body" [ONE MAN]).


              The positioning of each phrase is purely arbitrary.
              Let me ask you this: How did Paul know to say to them, in 1Th5:1-3, "you know perfectly that the DOTL so COMETH [ARRIVES] as a thief in the night, like the INITIAL birth PANG comes upon a woman with child" ? What could they have BASED this "knowledge" on (so "perfectly")??

              Yeah. Jesus spoke of it... and I pointed out what He Himself was calling THE FIRST of them! (That first BP will be followed by many more BPs, just as He said! And these PARALLEL the SEALS, at the START of the trib, just as I've pointed out before, and alluded to in THIS thread, briefly.)


              There is nothing in the way of context that requires this positioning of phrases to only mean what you would have them to mean!
              "The DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY" where found in the same CONTEXTS (as they are HERE AS WELL), both refer to the SAME *TIME PERIOD* and this context makes CLEAR that it is a TIME PERIOD of SOME DURATION (due to the wording in conjunction with the phrase here "IN THAT DAY") which must PRECEDE His "RETURN" (and the destruction of the man of sin). It's not hard to examine this IN THE CONTEXT (and that it is the SAME in the OT references where found together).

              The BASIC "definition/MEANING" of the word "apostasia" is "DEPARTURE"... and the CONTEXT itself tells "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is meant (and in that era, the word was used in "the departing of a fever" and "the departure of a boat from a dock"... so this is a totally LEGIT definition, and even Liddell and Scott's Lexicon [from the late 1800's, I think] has this as a definition... It's not my problem if you reject the idea. )

              Gotta head to bed now... it's past my expiration. lol

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: called to Postrib?

                Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                I'm sure you can find ways to split up the 3 events
                A) the coming of our Lord
                B) our gathering
                C) the day of the Lord
                Nope, I've not said that (exactly).

                Verse 1 (your "a" and "b") is ONE SUBJECT (our Rapture IN THE AIR).

                Verse 2 (your "c") is a DISTINCT SUBJECT (the EARTHLY TIME PERIOD which will thereafter unfold upon the earth and include the "man of sin" and all he will DO over the course of SOME TIME [and goes on to INCLUDE the ENTIRE MK age, minus the "man of sin"]); it was THIS that Paul is telling them is NOT present, and will NOT be present until "ONE THING *FIRST*" ("THE DEPARTURE"--the EVENT of V.1! and thereafter will "the man of sin be revealed" [aka SEAL #1 and the "INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4/Mk13:5!]")

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: called to Postrib?

                  Good night, all!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: called to Postrib?

                    Originally posted by randyk View Post
                    On the contrary, several times I offered the reason for the Rapture. It has to do with establishing a heavenly authority of men over the earth in glorified bodies, so that the promises God made to Abraham would be fulfilled, to have a multitude of nations for God, to have the knowledge of God cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.
                    Yes. You might have said this along the way, but you give no scripture for it. Rapture to the clouds gives no one a status. Rather it is the birth "from above" (Jn.3:3-5 - lit.Gk.), our calling which is heavenly (Heb.3:1), and being heavenly IN Christ (Eph.2:6) that gives us our heavenly status. A plausible reason for the rapture is thus still outstanding. And notice how few dare answer this question.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: called to Postrib?

                      Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                      Nope, I've not said that (exactly).

                      Verse 1 (your "a" and "b") is ONE SUBJECT (our Rapture IN THE AIR).

                      Verse 2 (your "c") is a DISTINCT SUBJECT (the EARTHLY TIME PERIOD which will thereafter unfold upon the earth and include the "man of sin" and all he will DO over the course of SOME TIME [and goes on to INCLUDE the ENTIRE MK age, minus the "man of sin"]); it was THIS that Paul is telling them is NOT present, and will NOT be present until "ONE THING *FIRST*" ("THE DEPARTURE"--the EVENT of V.1! and thereafter will "the man of sin be revealed" [aka SEAL #1 and the "INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4/Mk13:5!]")
                      That's what you say, but if you read the verse itself it sounds like A B and C are the same event. Plus if you look at 1 Thess 4/5 we can see that our gathering, the day of the Lord, and the coming of the Lord are all associated together.

                      Even Acts 2:20 and 2 Peter 3 associate the day of the Lord with events at the end of this age, the type of events associated with the second coming.

                      It doesn't work to separate any of these events, because they are all separately associated with the dramatic final day of this age, the day of the "thief in the night", a day of burning and destruction and wrath, and the attack of the northern army.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: called to Postrib?

                        Originally posted by divaD View Post
                        This does not present a problem with Post trib though. Let's assume some of the armies seen coming with Christ after heaven is opened, that they were already in heaven with Him before this event. What might explain it then? A Pretrib rapture? Not necessarily. Let's look at the following text.

                        1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


                        What does the text say?

                        Does it say this? For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus, plus the church that was raptured Pretrib, will God bring with him.

                        Or does it instead only say this? For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

                        The point would then be, if there is anyone already in heaven with Jesus when heaven opens in Rev 19, and that they then follow behind Him, it would be meaning the dead n Christ who rise first, since that is the only group the text indicates God will bring with Him when He comes.

                        1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

                        These would then be caught up with Christ and the dead in Christ that rose first, and together they form Christ's armies seen following behind Him in order to take on the beast and it's armies.

                        Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

                        Since this says armies rather than army, in heaven seems to imply these armies were formed in the air once the raptured church joined the dead in Christ who rise first. So the more I think on it, in heaven doesn't seem to be meaning heaven where Christ has been residing for the past 2000 years, but might be meaning in the air instead. Even if it is instead meaning heaven where Christ has been dwelling for the past 2000 years, still 1 Thessalonians 4:14 would explain who these are meaning.
                        Your argument using 1st Thessalonians 4:16 is not valid because,
                        1. as you yourself point out, it is "THOSE WHO SLEEP" in Christ that He will bring with Him. They are the dead of verse 16 who must RISE.
                        2. no matter when it happened, dead men made a journey to be in the air to be able to come with our Lord Jesus. Whether this journey was in 30 AD, 700 AD or 2019 AD, it is BEFORE the Tribulation - PRE-Tribulation.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: called to Postrib?

                          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                          Randy,

                          Taking this as just an opportunity to subscribe (instead of using the menu way). Read you post and will address parts later.

                          Here is my discussion item: The Bible informs us that we don't know the time of Jesus' return, "like a thief in the night" style of covertly returning. But based on prophecy, we know the exact length of the period that is called the Tribulation. Once that period begins, like a countdown clock... we KNOW the time Jesus returns. So when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation, this will NOT be covertly like a thief in the night.

                          So what event is Jesus involved with that is "like a thief in the night?"
                          No one knew at that time. We are still in the indefinite age.

                          But when we see the antichrist come to power on Mt Zion amid deceiving signs and wonders, this is the final great tribulation and we shall know.

                          This does not contradict the wording said nearly 2000 years ago. No one knows, does not mean no one will ever know.

                          And taking this further, the thief is for the unsaved, we shall be ready, it won't be a thief for us : 2 Thess 4/5

                          For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
                          Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: called to Postrib?

                            Here are some scriptural facts to consider.
                            1. Enoch walked with God and was raptured
                            2. Elijah was zealous for God's Covenant of Law and was raptured
                            3. Paul calls the rapture "the PRIZE of the Upward Call" (Phil.3:14)
                            4. The Church at Thessaloniki was a model Church (see the accolades of Chapters 1 and 3)
                            5. In Luke 21:27-36, in context of the coming of our Lord and the events that surround it, some will be "accounted worthy" to miss these events and stand before the Son of man. Since He will be in the clouds, it would mean a rapture of those "worthy" to stand before Him
                            6. In Revelation 3:10, the only Church in Revelation to be praised, Those who, "... kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Since the trial encompasses "ALL the earth", and "every man who dwells upon the earth", the promised escape must be off the earth.
                            7. In Revelation 19:9 it is; "... Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. ... ." That implies that some are NOT blessed and NOT called. This is further strengthened by them having a Garment which "is the righteousness of the saints". And these "blessed" and "righteous" are in the air for they come down with Christ from heaven.
                            8. In Revelation 7 Christians have tears because they pass through the Great Tribulation
                            9. In Revelation 12 Christians are forced to flee to a wilderness and are attacked by the Dragon who is on earth, so they could not have been raptured
                            10. In Revelation 13:7 Christians are overcome during the reign of the Beast, putting them on earth

                            I would say, based on the evidence, that:
                            1. Rapture is a REWARD for a certain walk with Christ
                            2. Rapture is an ESCAPE for those found worthy
                            3. Rapture is NOT for all since many Christians are apostate. I do not make this judgement, although I am aware of what is going on in the Churches, but I refer you to what the Holy Spirit said to six of seven Churches
                            4. Rapture for those few select, is BEFORE the Great Tribulation with the exception of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: called to Postrib?

                              Originally posted by Walls View Post
                              Your argument using 1st Thessalonians 4:16 is not valid because,
                              1. as you yourself point out, it is "THOSE WHO SLEEP" in Christ that He will bring with Him. They are the dead of verse 16 who must RISE.
                              2. no matter when it happened, dead men made a journey to be in the air to be able to come with our Lord Jesus. Whether this journey was in 30 AD, 700 AD or 2019 AD, it is BEFORE the Tribulation - PRE-Tribulation.
                              Pre wrath. We are rapture earlier in that day : Rev 16

                              They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
                              The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!

                              See where the thief is located, at the timing of Armageddon. We are raptured just before the war against Israel.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: called to Postrib?

                                Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                                Pre wrath. We are rapture earlier in that day : Rev 16

                                They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
                                The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!

                                See where the thief is located, at the timing of Armageddon. We are raptured just before the war against Israel.
                                May I answer with my posting #58?

                                Comment

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