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  • #61
    Re: called to Postrib?

    Originally posted by Walls View Post
    Here are some scriptural facts to consider.
    1. Enoch walked with God and was raptured
    2. Elijah was zealous for God's Covenant of Law and was raptured
    3. Paul calls the rapture "the PRIZE of the Upward Call" (Phil.3:14)
    4. The Church at Thessaloniki was a model Church (see the accolades of Chapters 1 and 3)
    5. In Luke 21:27-36, in context of the coming of our Lord and the events that surround it, some will be "accounted worthy" to miss these events and stand before the Son of man. Since He will be in the clouds, it would mean a rapture of those "worthy" to stand before Him
    6. In Revelation 3:10, the only Church in Revelation to be praised, Those who, "... kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Since the trial encompasses "ALL the earth", and "every man who dwells upon the earth", the promised escape must be off the earth.
    7. In Revelation 19:9 it is; "... Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. ... ." That implies that some are NOT blessed and NOT called. This is further strengthened by them having a Garment which "is the righteousness of the saints". And these "blessed" and "righteous" are in the air for they come down with Christ from heaven.
    8. In Revelation 7 Christians have tears because they pass through the Great Tribulation
    9. In Revelation 12 Christians are forced to flee to a wilderness and are attacked by the Dragon who is on earth, so they could not have been raptured
    10. In Revelation 13:7 Christians are overcome during the reign of the Beast, putting them on earth

    I would say, based on the evidence, that:
    1. Rapture is a REWARD for a certain walk with Christ
    2. Rapture is an ESCAPE for those found worthy
    3. Rapture is NOT for all since many Christians are apostate. I do not make this judgement, although I am aware of what is going on in the Churches, but I refer you to what the Holy Spirit said to six of seven Churches
    4. Rapture for those few select, is BEFORE the Great Tribulation with the exception of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11
    Luke 21 would make no sense if it was saying this will occur to you if you faithful, that will occur to you if you are faithful, but none of this will occur to you if you are faithful. That makes no sense.

    The things to escape are clearly written in context:
    Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”


    We must be careful to escape drunkenness, carousing, and anxiety.

    Rev 3 is very open to interpretation. Hour of trial could mean the final wrath of Armageddon and the great earthquake, stars fall, sulfur and hail rains down etc.

    Yes some are not called and not blessed. These are the unsaved even if they regard themselves as believers.

    I've never found the pretrib proof verses very compelling, in comparison to the simple wording of the Bible which associates the rapture with the day of the Lord, the second coming, a day of wrath, and the thief in the night.

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: called to Postrib?

      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
      That's what you say, but if you read the verse itself it sounds like A B and C are the same event.
      BONK!

      You're on Jeopardy, and that response [to the context] is the wrong answer!

      Even if one were to read only the first two verses, completely disregarding the entire rest of the context, it would STILL be difficult to see verse 1 and 2 as speaking of the "same event" (possible to think it, but difficult! )

      because I find it hard to imagine Paul saying, [in essence], "Don't let anyone convince you THE RAPTURE *is present*".
      I do not believe the Thessalonians were under ANY such delusion that "the Rapture *IS PRESENT*"... that is totally illogical, because it would have taken Paul DAYS to have: 1) HEARD about their distraught mindsets, 2) COMPOSED this letter, and 3) SENT the epistle to them, before THEY THEMSELVES would have "figured out" ON THEIR OWN that 1) no one around them had disappeared in the Rapture, 2) everyone in their local church-meeting was still present (NONE of them had been raptured), 3) no "after-effects" (whatever you believe that is to be) were in existence...

      To me, it makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER, for Paul to have to COMPOSE A LETTER to them TELLING THEM "don't let anyone convince you THE RAPTURE *IS PRESENT*" (and be sure, the word IS "IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]," NOT "is near," NOR "is soon," but "IS PRESENT"... "[purporting] that the DOTL *IS PRESENT*").

      The text goes on to say what will be present WHEN the DOTL *IS* in existence on the earth, and that is "the man of sin" (after the "ONE THING *FIRST*" is referred to): "that day [the time period] will not be present if not shall have come [insert ONE THING *FIRST*] AND the man of sin be revealed..." (he will be there [doing what he will DO] at the time that "the DOTL" also will be in existence/unfolding upon the earth--THIS is the "DARKNESS/DARK [/IN THE NIGHT]" aspect of the entire long "DOTL" time period [the 7-yrs leading UP TO the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect/Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth and His 1000-yr reign aspect of the DOTL [ALL 3! are included in the term "DOTL"... it is not merely a 24-hr day... read BOTH CHPTS of Isa34 and 35, rather than just a singular verse 34:4 (cf2Pet3) extracted from its overall CONTEXT])

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: called to Postrib?

        Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
        BONK!

        You're on Jeopardy, and that response [to the context] is the wrong answer!

        Even if one were to read only the first two verses, completely disregarding the entire rest of the context, it would STILL be difficult to see verse 1 and 2 as speaking of the "same event" (possible to think it, but difficult! )…

        … because I find it hard to imagine Paul saying, [in essence], "Don't let anyone convince you THE RAPTURE *is present*…".
        I do not believe the Thessalonians were under ANY such delusion that "the Rapture *IS PRESENT*"... that is totally illogical, because it would have taken Paul DAYS to have: 1) HEARD about their distraught mindsets, 2) COMPOSED this letter, and 3) SENT the epistle to them, before THEY THEMSELVES would have "figured out" ON THEIR OWN that 1) no one around them had disappeared in the Rapture, 2) everyone in their local church-meeting was still present (NONE of them had been raptured), 3) no "after-effects" (whatever you believe that is to be) were in existence...

        To me, it makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER, for Paul to have to COMPOSE A LETTER to them TELLING THEM "don't let anyone convince you THE RAPTURE *IS PRESENT*" (and be sure, the word IS "IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]," NOT "is near," NOR "is soon," but "IS PRESENT"... "[purporting] that the DOTL *IS PRESENT*").

        The text goes on to say what will be present WHEN the DOTL *IS* in existence on the earth, and that is "the man of sin" (after the "ONE THING *FIRST*" is referred to): "that day [the time period] will not be present if not shall have come [insert ONE THING *FIRST*] AND the man of sin be revealed..." (he will be there [doing what he will DO] at the time that "the DOTL" also will be in existence/unfolding upon the earth--THIS is the "DARKNESS/DARK [/IN THE NIGHT]" aspect of the entire long "DOTL" time period [the 7-yrs leading UP TO the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect/Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth and His 1000-yr reign aspect of the DOTL [ALL 3! are included in the term "DOTL"... it is not merely a 24-hr day... read BOTH CHPTS of Isa34 and 35, rather than just a singular verse 34:4 (cf2Pet3) extracted from its overall CONTEXT])
        Actually even today you get full preterism. Those who claim these prophecies have been fulfilled. This is what Paul was warning against, a doctrine like full preterism. He warns against those "asserting that the day of the Lord has already come."

        He responds with a sentence that relates our gathering with the day of the Lord and the second coming, and says the man of sin will be revealed first.

        This is just like 1 Thess 4/5 which also associates the 3 concepts at the same point in time :

        According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief



        Our gathering, the thief in the night, the second coming, the day of the Lord, the day of destruction, all occur on the same day.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: called to Postrib?

          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
          Luke 21 would make no sense if it was saying this will occur to you if you faithful, that will occur to you if you are faithful, but none of this will occur to you if you are faithful. That makes no sense.

          The things to escape are clearly written in context:
          Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”


          We must be careful to escape drunkenness, carousing, and anxiety.
          But the grammar forbids this. "All that is about to happen" could not be hearts weighed down with carousing, drunkeness and anxieties etc. because these things have happened before, are happening and will happen all through history. "All that is about to happen" is something FUTURE and refers to what happens when the times of the Gentiles are full. Luke 21:25-26 gives what WILL (future) happen;

          25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
          26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
          ...
          34 ...., and so that day come upon you unawares."


          That is, "when the times of the Gentiles are full terrible things will happen on earth and in the heavens. Don't you be caught worrying about the things that the Gentiles worry about because of your focus is on the world, THAT DAY OF TROUBLE will come upon you unawares. Rather, watch and pray that you may be accounted worthy to escape the terrible things of THAT DAY"


          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
          Rev 3 is very open to interpretation. Hour of trial could mean the final wrath of Armageddon and the great earthquake, stars fall, sulfur and hail rains down etc.
          No. Those are all LOCAL calamities. Revelation 3:10 speaks of what will come over ALL the earth and ALL who dwell upon earth.

          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
          I've never found the pretrib proof verses very compelling, in comparison to the simple wording of the Bible which associates the rapture with the day of the Lord, the second coming, a day of wrath, and the thief in the night.
          I wish you have given the scriptures for that. You leave out the best part. But may I make an observation. You did not address any of my proofs. You still speak of a "Pre-Trib", but those proofs showed something completely different - A SELECTIVE RAPTURE. Just for yourself, not for me, write down your proofs that there is any rapture. You only have one scripture - 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 - and it does not say when. The Post Tribulation school of though is built on not a single scripture. Where is this rapture AFTER the Great Tribulation? You can't use Revelation 19 because the saints are with the Lord Jesus BEFORE He descends for Armageddon.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: called to Postrib?

            Originally posted by Keraz View Post
            It seems that no one here, [or in my Church[ is interested in considering the actual prophesied; alternative end times scenario.
            It is the migration to and living in all of the holy Land, of every faithful Christian person; soon after the imminent terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.

            The leader of the One World Govt, later to be revealed as the Anti-Christ, will come to us and negotiate a 7 year peace treaty. He will do this when he sees how the Lord wipes out the armies of Gog/Magog.
            Much more happens, all detailed in the prophesies, but the basic picture precludes any 'rapture to heaven' of anyone at any time. When Jesus Returns to the earth, He will gather His people to Him, just as Matthew 24:30-31 tells us.

            It seems that no one here, [or in my Church[ is interested in considering the actual prophesied; alternative end times scenario.
            It is the migration to and living in all of the holy Land, of every faithful Christian person; soon after the imminent terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.

            The leader of the One World Govt, later to be revealed as the Anti-Christ, will come to us and negotiate a 7 year peace treaty. He will do this when he sees how the Lord wipes out the armies of Gog/Magog.
            Much more happens, all detailed in the prophesies, but the basic picture precludes any 'rapture to heaven' of anyone at any time. When Jesus Returns to the earth, He will gather His people to Him, just as Matthew 24:30-31 tells us.
            No doubt a prelude to the Coming will take place in the form of catastrophic judgments. I can't say specifically what they will be, but I think there is only a peripheral need to prepare for such exigencies. The major need is for *spiritual reformation,* so as to avoid personal judgment. Suffering in an overarching world judgment does not mean we are the guilty parties.

            Part of the Coming of Christ has to do with a regathering of sorts. We may disagree on exactly what this consists of. But I do think a major purpose of the Coming, Scripturally, is the glorification of the Church, which involves the resurrection of the saints and their receiving new immortal bodies.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: called to Postrib?

              Originally posted by Walls View Post
              But the grammar forbids this. "All that is about to happen" could not be hearts weighed down with carousing, drunkeness and anxieties etc. because these things have happened before, are happening and will happen all through history. "All that is about to happen" is something FUTURE and refers to what happens when the times of the Gentiles are full. Luke 21:25-26 gives what WILL (future) happen;

              25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
              26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
              ...
              34 ...., and so that day come upon you unawares."


              That is, "when the times of the Gentiles are full terrible things will happen on earth and in the heavens. Don't you be caught worrying about the things that the Gentiles worry about because of your focus is on the world, THAT DAY OF TROUBLE will come upon you unawares. Rather, watch and pray that you may be accounted worthy to escape the terrible things of THAT DAY"




              No. Those are all LOCAL calamities. Revelation 3:10 speaks of what will come over ALL the earth and ALL who dwell upon earth.



              I wish you have given the scriptures for that. You leave out the best part. But may I make an observation. You did not address any of my proofs. You still speak of a "Pre-Trib", but those proofs showed something completely different - A SELECTIVE RAPTURE. Just for yourself, not for me, write down your proofs that there is any rapture. You only have one scripture - 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 - and it does not say when. The Post Tribulation school of though is built on not a single scripture. Where is this rapture AFTER the Great Tribulation? You can't use Revelation 19 because the saints are with the Lord Jesus BEFORE He descends for Armageddon.

              1 Thess 4/5

              According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.


              As per the wording above the rapture occurs at the coming of the Lord, thief in the night, day of the Lord, a day of destruction. Just like 2 Thess 2, which when read simply also associates our gathering with the second coming and the day of the Lord.

              The second coming is a day of wrath, that will be wrath on the whole earth, not just localized wrath.
              Rev 19 No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed

              Rev 3 makes no claim of a long period of trial and could be referring to the one day of trial for the whole world at the second coming. As per the verse above that day of trial affects the whole world, all the cities of the world:
              "I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

              As for Luke 21 your interpretation is impossible. The church has already been through some of those things about to happen, so how can we escape them All if some have already happened?
              Context is referring to the temptations of this world that were about to happen to the new church and throughout this age. Jesus was warning the church to watch our souls carefully so that we can be ready on that day. We cannot escape the Roman war and persecutions described in Luke 21, that's impossible and has occurred already, but we can escape temptations that threaten our souls.

              You mention Rev 19, but the description of that feast fits in exactly with what I'm saying. We are not appointed to wrath, we are kept from that hour of trial, we get raptured just before that army enters Israel. This is why the thief in the night occurs in Rev 16:15. We have the feast in heaven, and then join in with that heavenly army at the second coming. Obviously a feast isn't 7 years long, so there's nothing wrong with one being a few hours long, especially considering that time is relative.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: called to Postrib?

                Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                I disagree, but have pointed out how scripture itself refers to that particular phrase as "a period of time" rather than a mere 24-hr day.

                I disagree with the Amill-teaching's "made-up" definition (disregarding how the prophetic word itself uses/defines the term).
                I'm not Amil, but I will address the confusion surrounding what the "Day" of the Lord is. Yes, the Day of the Lord is a term subject to its context and can mean either a literal 24 hour day or a period of time. It's somewhat controversial how it is applied in various passages throughout the Prophetic Scriptures. However, when "the Day of the Lord" is used in connection with Christ's Return, to defeat Antichrist, and to deliver the Church, the sense is of a literal 24 hour day. Christ comes at a distinct hour and on a distinct day.

                There is a day when the present age, and its satanic leadership, comes to an end. That has nothing to do with the age to come, except that it involves the end of the old age, to make way for the new age. And that is a *terminal point,* and not an extended period of time!

                I go back to how I examine NT eschatology, by referring back to its origins in Dan 7. The Coming of the Son of Man is a determination by a heavenly court that the Antichristian Empire must come to an end. It is a specific moment in time, in which the old age ends and the new age of God's Kingdom begins. It is a specific point in time in which God's People are delivered from their enemies. That does not include the Millennial Age!

                Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark
                It's almost as if you've overlooked what I'd actually said, here.
                Not at all. My point was that all of the references of Christ's Coming relate to a single origin in Dan 7. To separate different comings and different days into separate categories is the equivalent of "dividing and conquering." You separate a coherent meaning of a single event into multiple events in order to fit a complete foreign scenario belonging to a new theology, which is Pretribulationism.

                Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark
                "The Day of the Lord" is a time period (including JUDGMENTS and followed by BLESSING) and ONLY EVER takes place ON THE EARTH; and was prophesied as part of what Acts 3:21 is saying [is an aspect of] "all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [i.e. OT prophecies, concerning ALSO His Second Coming to the earth, the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" included, but also involves negatives preceding the blessing--the Thessalonians wrongly believed "the DOTL *IS PRESENT*" as a REASONABLE idea, BECAUSE of their PRESENT and ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE things they were ONGOINGLY EXPERIENCING]
                Nobody is arguing against the idea that there are various aspects to Christ's Coming that go beyond the Coming itself. The main event is to be a singular point in time. But the results of that event do establish a long period of time called "the Millennium." Conflating these 2 elements into a single term called "the Day of the Lord" is unnecessary and serves to confuse Paul's teaching here.

                Paul was referring to the singular event--the 24 hour day of Christ's Coming--and not uniting both that event and the Millennium into a single term. The concern was not that the Thessalonians thought they were already in this conflated sense of the Day of the Lord, but that the *event* of Christ's Coming had already taken place. They thought Christ had already returned to earth, and had somewhere already begun establishing his Kingdom. We get that today, for example, with the JWs, or even with Kingdom Now theology.

                Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark
                "The Day of Christ" is when WE ('the Church which is His body') is UP THERE *WITH [G4862 - UNIONED-with] HIM (which "WITH" word is an entirely distinct idea from...

                the "WITH [G3326]" word used of the PLURAL "10 [or even 5] Virgins" who ACCOMPANY Him into the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [the EARTHLY MK age] upon His RETURN to the earth, they never having lifted off the earth, and being "still-alive" at that point, will ENTER the MK in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children [just as in Noah's day; see Dan2:35 comp. w/ Gen9:1 "FILL/FILLED the [whole] earth"]); Noah and the ark being a "type" of those who exist in and come through the trib years (whereas "Enoch" is a "type" of "the Church which is His body" [ONE MAN]).
                If you have to use different passages to explain a single passage you have a problem. A passage needs to make sense all by itself. The parable of the 10 Virgins is *not* in this passage! If you're going to be so discriminatory in terms, then it has to make sense in their own context! And the term "the Day of Christ" is associated with the Coming of the Son of Man in Dan 7, just as all references to Christ's Coming in the NT refer to that. Dan 7 is the origin of the term!

                Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark
                Let me ask you this: How did Paul know to say to them, in 1Th5:1-3, "you know perfectly that the DOTL so COMETH [ARRIVES] as a thief in the night, like the INITIAL birth PANG comes upon a woman with child" ? What could they have BASED this "knowledge" on (so "perfectly")??
                We've discussed this before. The "Birth Pains" Paul refers to is different from the "Birth Pains" Jesus referred to in his Olivet Discourse. The term "birth pains" does not have a static meaning, as if it must refer to the same event every time it is used.

                On the contrary, it is *context* that determines what the user of the term is referring to. Jesus was referring to the signs of the impending fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Paul is referring, in 1 Thes 5, to the Day of Christ's Return.

                The idea is that once birth pains begin in a pregnancy, the actual birth is imminent. Jesus' Coming will come virtually without warning. People will know something is happening, but will not be ready for the event. In the Olivet Discourse, Jewish unbelievers saw the trouble associated with the coming of Roman forces. But they were not prepared for the destruction to follow.

                Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark
                Yeah. Jesus spoke of it... and I pointed out what He Himself was calling THE FIRST of them! (That first BP will be followed by many more BPs, just as He said! And these PARALLEL the SEALS, at the START of the trib, just as I've pointed out before, and alluded to in THIS thread, briefly.)

                "The DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY" where found in the same CONTEXTS (as they are HERE AS WELL), both refer to the SAME *TIME PERIOD* and this context makes CLEAR that it is a TIME PERIOD of SOME DURATION (due to the wording in conjunction with the phrase here "IN THAT DAY") which must PRECEDE His "RETURN" (and the destruction of the man of sin). It's not hard to examine this IN THE CONTEXT (and that it is the SAME in the OT references where found together).

                The BASIC "definition/MEANING" of the word "apostasia" is "DEPARTURE"... and the CONTEXT itself tells "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is meant (and in that era, the word was used in "the departing of a fever" and "the departure of a boat from a dock"... so this is a totally LEGIT definition, and even Liddell and Scott's Lexicon [from the late 1800's, I think] has this as a definition... It's not my problem if you reject the idea. )

                Gotta head to bed now... it's past my expiration. lol
                The "Apostasy" was a reference back to the Little Horn in Dan 7, who would set up an empire that opposed God's People. It was a form of direct rebellion against God by attacking His People.

                Paul was warning the Thessalonians that far from trying to expect a Pretrib Return of Christ they were to understand that the concern, before that time, is to deal with the Antichristian Apostasy that already mysteriously is taking place. We are to be awake and to be aware that there are deceptions, trying to get us to go along with the ungodly world.

                We are not to think we will escape persecution in this age, nor are we to think the Kingdom can somehow be imposed until Christ comes back to destroy the age of Antichrist. Rather than think Christ has already come we must know that our job is to live out our Christian lives, promoting the Kingdom of Christ in the midst of opposition.

                The presence of this opposition does not indicate some weird definition of the "Day of the Lord" has already begun. That makes no sense to Christians. They were concerned about when, precisely, Christ himself would return. That is the "Day" that is in focus here!

                Paul's counsel is that since Christ cannot come until the actual time to destroy Antichrist we must expect opposition in our own time. This should be our focus so that we are not caught up in the ungodly world, and determine within ourselves to properly resist the deceptions of Satan.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: called to Postrib?

                  Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                  what day?

                  The DOTL from *VERSE 2* (NOT the Subject from *VERSE 1*! )



                  It is a common belief that the "revealing" (of the man of sin) has to do with VERSE 4 (which is associated time-wise with both Matt24:15,21 AND Rev13:5-7 [and other mentions of the second half of the trib, aka "the GREAT tribulation"]), but when we view the THREE mentions of "revealed" (regarding the man of sin), we can see this is not the case; that, in fact, 2Th2 is covering ALL SEVEN YEARS, its "BEGINNING," its "MIDDLE," AND its "END" (just like does:

                  --Daniel 9:27a,b,c[26]'s "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END" of the "ONE WEEK [7-yrs]"; and

                  --the "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END" of the "chronology" of The Revelation [Rev6:2, Rev13:5-7, Rev19]; and

                  --the "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END" of the Olivet Discourse [Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'," Matt24:15,21, and Matt24:29-31(etc) [ALL of which FOLLOWS our Rapture] )


                  I've posted before, the color-coded grammar chart showing the THREE TIMES in this 2Th2 context that the SEQUENCE of our Rapture/The Departure *FIRST* takes place BEFORE "the DOTL" (all of the above-mentioned "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END" [of the 7-yrs]) "IN THE NIGHT" aspect covers; the DOTL goes on to encompass His 2nd Coming to the earth AND the 1000-yr reign as well! ALL of that! (Its ARRIVAL is at the START of the 7-yr trib, tho, which involves the "whose coming" [i.e. ARRIVAL] of the "man of sin" and then also ALL he will DO throughout those 7 yrs, as well!)

                  It's getting late, so I won't bother to post the color-coded grammar chart I've posted before, here.
                  Verse 2 begins with a 'That'. I'm sure you noticed that. Since you apparently don't think verse 2 has a connection with verse 1, let's take verse 1 out of that chapter altogether and make verse 2 to be meaning verse 1, then see if the text is making sense.

                  2 Thessalonians 2:1 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
                  2 *Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                  3 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

                  Who begins a a new conversation with a 'that' in that manner, if there is nothing previously disclosed explaining the reason for the 'That'.

                  But if we include verse 1, the real verse 1, that 'That' in verse 2 makes perfect sense.

                  2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
                  2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

                  This is all one thought. Clearly, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, this is meaning the day of Christ.

                  Wanted to make one more point. The gathering in verse 1 is clearly meaning the same gathering in 1 Thess 4. And that in verse 3 in 2 Thess 2 it indicates that day(that same gathering in verse 1 and also in 1 Thess 4) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: called to Postrib?

                    Originally posted by randyk View Post
                    I'm not Amil, but I will address the confusion surrounding what the "Day" of the Lord is. Yes, the Day of the Lord is a term subject to its context and can mean either a literal 24 hour day or a period of time. It's somewhat controversial how it is applied in various passages throughout the Prophetic Scriptures. However, when "the Day of the Lord" is used in connection with Christ's Return, to defeat Antichrist, and to deliver the Church, the sense is of a literal 24 hour day. Christ comes at a distinct hour and on a distinct day.
                    It seems to me, when it comes to TDOL and endtimes, there can only be one TDOL event. So with that in mind, let's consider Zech 14 for a moment.

                    Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

                    When should we assume, in regards to what follows this verse, that the day of the LORD initially cometh? Would it be during the events of verse 2, verse 3, so on and so on?

                    Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

                    This verse says Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations. Would the DOTL be in progress at this point? I tend to think it could be. Would this battle be something that is started and concluded in the same day, or could this battle stretch beyond a 24 hour day?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: called to Postrib?

                      Originally posted by randyk View Post
                      No doubt a prelude to the Coming will take place in the form of catastrophic judgments. I can't say specifically what they will be, but I think there is only a peripheral need to prepare for such exigencies. The major need is for *spiritual reformation,* so as to avoid personal judgment. Suffering in an overarching world judgment does not mean we are the guilty parties.

                      Part of the Coming of Christ has to do with a regathering of sorts. We may disagree on exactly what this consists of. But I do think a major purpose of the Coming, Scripturally, is the glorification of the Church, which involves the resurrection of the saints and their receiving new immortal bodies.
                      Thanks for replying, Randyk. I thought I was ignored, as usual.

                      The forthcoming great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, will be a worldwide catastrophe. Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7, +
                      It will mainly affect the Middle East region, doing what the Lord promised in Deuteronomy 32:34-43; clearing and cleansing the holy Land. This event will allow the re-population of all that area between the Nile and the Euphrates with the righteous, faithful Christian people of God. Psalms 107 describes their migration and Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15, Zechariah 8:7, + , describes their living in peace and prosperity. The Lord will save them from their enemies. Ezekiel 38 -39, Joel 2:20

                      The Return of Jesus is clearly described. Matthew 24:30-31 says how those who remain will be gathered to Him.
                      He will bring the souls of those martyred during the Great Tribulation and raise them back to life. NOT to immortality, as yet. Your mention of 'the glorification of the Church', is just wishful thinking. During the Millennium reign of Jesus, life for all will simply continue as it always has done, but with the benefit of a benevolent and righteous King.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: called to Postrib?

                        Originally posted by divaD View Post
                        Verse 2 begins with a 'That'. I'm sure you noticed that. Since you apparently don't think verse 2 has a connection with verse 1, let's take verse 1 out of that chapter altogether and make verse 2 to be meaning verse 1, then see if the text is making sense.

                        2 Thessalonians 2:1 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
                        2 *Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                        3 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

                        Who begins a a new conversation with a 'that' in that manner, if there is nothing previously disclosed explaining the reason for the 'That'.

                        But if we include verse 1, the real verse 1, that 'That' in verse 2 makes perfect sense.

                        2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
                        2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

                        This is all one thought. Clearly, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, this is meaning the day of Christ.

                        Wanted to make one more point. The gathering in verse 1 is clearly meaning the same gathering in 1 Thess 4. And that in verse 3 in 2 Thess 2 it indicates that day(that same gathering in verse 1 and also in 1 Thess 4) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
                        divaD, I grasp verse 2... but both verse 1 and verse 2 (as well as whole of chpt 2) is in the CONTEXT of what Paul had just written in chpt 1... There (esp in v.4 you can see) he is acknowledging their PRESENT and ONGOING *NEGATIVE* circumstances ("tribulations and persecutions") they were ONGOINGLY ENDURING.

                        In view of this, he is writing to them, NOT because THEY have "RAPTURE" on their distraught minds! (thinking of it at all, or freaking out thinking they missed it, etc...) IT [the RAPTURE] was not what THE TEXT STATES was on their minds or at risk of being the source of their distress (as though THINKING they'd missed it--this is NOT what the TEXT ITSELF is conveying to the readers).

                        The text is that PAUL is BRINGING UP THAT SUBJECT *in verse 1* and telling them HOW IT *FITS* in RELATION [time-wise] TO "the DOTL [TIME PERIOD]" which they incorrectly believed [or were at risk of incorrectly believing] "IS PRESENT". (It wasn't and Paul is TELLING THEM *WHY*… and that is because of the CHRONOLOGY/SEQUENCE that *HE*/PAUL is bringing [or bringing AGAIN] to their thinking, as a CORRECTIVE (or at the very least, as a caution against being convinced by anyone trying to persuade them otherwise [that it IS PRESENT], per vv.2-3,15 and which SEQUENCE is REPEATED 3x in this text [agreeing with the SEQUENCE also found in 1Th4-5, and elsewhere]).

                        "The Day of the Lord" for example in Zech14 is accompanied in the rest of that chpt by the phrase I'd pointed out (that is used IN CONNECTION with the phrase "the DOTL" [elsewhere]) and that phrase (repeated in Zech14 several times) is "IN THAT DAY" (showing via the surrounding context/contexts that this is NOT merely a "singular 24-hr day," though certainly particular THINGS take place on particular 24-hr days WITHIN that TIME-PERIOD (which on the whole is not merely a singular 24-hr day... Just like the phrase "IN THE LAST DAY" refers not to a singular 24-hr day, any more than Hosea 5:15-6:3's "after two days" and "IN THE THIRD DAY" also does not speak of merely 24-hr days, but a TIME-PERIOD of substantial DURATION [1000-yrs: the 7th Millennium/the sabbatismos of Heb4:9/the MK age]).

                        The question then boils down to, at what point does it [the DOTL] COMMENCE/ARRIVE/START/BEGIN?? (and I gave a number of reason, so far, as to why Paul is EQUATING the ARRIVAL of the DOTL with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse, which is parallel with SEAL #1 at the START of the trib yrs; and is also the equivalent of the [start-point] of the "ONE WEEK [7-yrs]" which Daniel 9 speaks of. And this is what Paul is saying here in chpt two... that [v.3] "that day [the time period] will not be present if not shall have come [ONE THING *FIRST*] AND the man of sin be revealed..." This SAME SEQUENCE 3x in the text (that is, WHAT happens WHEN in relation to WHAT OTHER THING).


                        [see next post for the color-coded grammar chart made by a Greek grammar scholar whose name now escapes me... just the color-coded grammar chart, not the rest of the post which will be my own comments]

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: called to Postrib?

                          [*pardon the double negative or whatever, in my previous post... trying to type too hastily! lol]


                          Color-coded Grammar chart for 2Th2 -

                          V.3 - "that day [the time period from the immediately preceding verse, grammatically] will not be present if not shall have come the departure [noun] first, and [<--this "and" means the following phrase is entirely distinct from the previous thing, which was alone "first" (one thing "first" only) [and (distinctly)-->] the man of sin be revealed..."

                          This sequence is repeated 3x in this passage (vv.3-8), and is the same sequence that 1Th4-5 also stated.


                          Here is the color-coded words to illustrate those 3x in 2Th2:3-8 -


                          1)


                          the departure first


                          and the man of sin


                          be revealed


                          2)


                          what withholdeth [/is restraining] in order that


                          he


                          might be revealed IN HIS TIME


                          3)


                          only he who is now [at present] restraining, will restrain, until out of the midst he be come [come to be]


                          and then [kai tote] shall that Wicked


                          be revealed






                          All of the green is referring to the noun-event of verse 1 (of the context).

                          Verse 2 is referring to the earthly time period that will thereafter unfold upon the earth, [with] the "man of sin" and all he will do, and will involve "judgments" and "the wrath coming" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE"




                          So the DEPICTION of this looks like the following:


                          [X='you are here'... "first vertical line [grn] is 'arrow UP' [='THE Departure *FIRST*']"..<then DOTL will be in existence on the earth w/its 'man of sin' (SEAL #1) and 'judgments' unfolding>..."second verticle line [purple] is Jesus' "RETURN" to the earth ('arrow down') FOR the earthly MK age (note: the DOTL continues clear throughout the MK age also [including both "DARK/IN THE NIGHT" (red) as well as the FULL LIGHT OF DAY (purple)])]




                          -----X---l_<DOTL>__________l______________<1000y>_______________>


                          V.3
                          - "that day [the DOTL time period] will not be present, if not shall have come THE Departure FIRST, and the man of sin be revealed..."


                          (he is revealed at the START of the 7-yrs [2Th2:9a/8a], not at its MIDDLE [2Th2:4 (not shown in line-chart above)], nor at its END [2Th2:8b])

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: called to Postrib?

                            Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post

                            The question then boils down to, at what point does it [the DOTL] COMMENCE/ARRIVE/START/BEGIN??
                            I agree, thus why after I noted you and Randy's discussion about this, then his response to you, I then was interested in getting Randy's opinion on this based on Zech 14, as an example. Verse 1 in that chapter declares the DOTL cometh, so when in that chapter does it initially begin? And then we have to try and figure out the length of that day. A literal 24 hour day or less, or a much longer period? What else needs to be determined, can the DOTL precede the literal 2nd coming, or does the literal 2nd coming need to occur before there can even be the DOTL? From looking at some of the things you wrote about this, it appears that you attempted to address pretty much all of these things. Whether you are correct about all or some of that, I'm not certain yet myself.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: called to Postrib?

                              So Paul is basically saying,

                              --you are experiencing "tribulations and persecutions" (which ye are enduring--over some length of time)

                              --I'm here to REMIND you of "our Rapture/our "gathering-together UNTO HIM [IN THE AIR]"

                              --do not allow anyone to CONVINCE you that the TIME PERIOD you WELL-KNOW ABOUT called the DOTL *IS PRESENT*

                              --it isn't

                              --that day will NOT be present if not shall have come [ONE THING *FIRST*!! the NOUN-EVENT I JUST BROUGHT UP TO YOUR MINDS again, here in verse 1!] AND the man of sin be revealed... (barring these items, the DOTL will NOT BE PRESENT to unfold upon the earth as it is slated to do!)

                              --believe US, not those trying to convince you that "the DOTL *IS PRESENT* [v.15, the other end of this bracketed CONTEXT]



                              [I supplied other things to look at in this context, in past posts of this thread...]

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: called to Postrib?

                                Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                                [*pardon the double negative or whatever, in my previous post... trying to type too hastily! lol]


                                Color-coded Grammar chart for 2Th2 -

                                V.3 - "that day [the time period from the immediately preceding verse, grammatically] will not be present if not shall have come the departure [noun] first, and [<--this "and" means the following phrase is entirely distinct from the previous thing, which was alone "first" (one thing "first" only) [and (distinctly)-->] the man of sin be revealed..."

                                This sequence is repeated 3x in this passage (vv.3-8), and is the same sequence that 1Th4-5 also stated.


                                Here is the color-coded words to illustrate those 3x in 2Th2:3-8 -


                                1)


                                the departure first


                                and the man of sin


                                be revealed


                                2)


                                what withholdeth [/is restraining] in order that


                                he


                                might be revealed IN HIS TIME


                                3)


                                only he who is now [at present] restraining, will restrain, until out of the midst he be come [come to be]


                                and then [kai tote] shall that Wicked


                                be revealed






                                All of the green is referring to the noun-event of verse 1 (of the context).

                                Verse 2 is referring to the earthly time period that will thereafter unfold upon the earth, [with] the "man of sin" and all he will do, and will involve "judgments" and "the wrath coming" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE"




                                So the DEPICTION of this looks like the following:


                                [X='you are here'... "first vertical line [grn] is 'arrow UP' [='THE Departure *FIRST*']"..<then DOTL will be in existence on the earth w/its 'man of sin' (SEAL #1) and 'judgments' unfolding>..."second verticle line [purple] is Jesus' "RETURN" to the earth ('arrow down') FOR the earthly MK age (note: the DOTL continues clear throughout the MK age also [including both "DARK/IN THE NIGHT" (red) as well as the FULL LIGHT OF DAY (purple)])]




                                -----X---l_<DOTL>__________l______________<1000y>_______________>


                                V.3
                                - "that day [the DOTL time period] will not be present, if not shall have come THE Departure FIRST, and the man of sin be revealed..."


                                (he is revealed at the START of the 7-yrs [2Th2:9a/8a], not at its MIDDLE [2Th2:4 (not shown in line-chart above)], nor at its END [2Th2:8b])
                                The falling away first is what causes that man of sin to be revealed, the son of perdition. But not because the departure is meaning the church leaving the planet, but because departure is meaning departure from the faith, as in apostasy. There is no way anyone back then familiar with what Paul said and wrote here, would have taken the departure to mean the removal of the church from the earth. This interpretation is a modern invention of Pretribbers, unless you can show that there were some back in Paul's day, or at least within a few hundred years of him writing that, where any of them took it to mean the departure of the church from the earth.

                                Comment

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