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  • #91
    Re: called to Postrib?

    Originally posted by Keraz View Post
    Thanks for replying, Randyk. I thought I was ignored, as usual.

    The forthcoming great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, will be a worldwide catastrophe. Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7, +
    It will mainly affect the Middle East region, doing what the Lord promised in Deuteronomy 32:34-43; clearing and cleansing the holy Land. This event will allow the re-population of all that area between the Nile and the Euphrates with the righteous, faithful Christian people of God. Psalms 107 describes their migration and Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15, Zechariah 8:7, + , describes their living in peace and prosperity. The Lord will save them from their enemies. Ezekiel 38 -39, Joel 2:20

    The Return of Jesus is clearly described. Matthew 24:30-31 says how those who remain will be gathered to Him.
    He will bring the souls of those martyred during the Great Tribulation and raise them back to life. NOT to immortality, as yet. Your mention of 'the glorification of the Church', is just wishful thinking. During the Millennium reign of Jesus, life for all will simply continue as it always has done, but with the benefit of a benevolent and righteous King.
    I've heard of Lazarus coming back from the dead, and of others who had not been dead so long that their corpses were there to be raised back to life. I've even heard of the vision of the dry bones coming back together. But when the elements of human bodies are scattered and integrated with the dust of the earth, I've never heard of them coming back in their old mortal bodies. Are you suggesting that the saints are coming back in *new* mortal bodies? I could never see the old, flawed human bodies coming back to life, nor would I ever want to come back in that!

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: called to Postrib?

      Originally posted by boangry View Post
      646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

      I have to agree with TDW that the translators haven't translated but have put their own understanding into the text here, The Greek means to leave or to depart and as TDW pointed out the only other place this word is used there is a departure from Moses. And while im not 100% certain of the intended meaning, for it does seem according to context one could see either or either.

      Acts 21:21*And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake(apostasia
      ) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.


      It might be like saying, in the case of the man of sin...And the man of sin causes those of the faith to forsake the faith. To forsake something means to depart from it. If someone forsakes the faith they had adopted, that equals falling away, thus apostasy. In Acts 21:21, from the Jews perspective here, meaning the ones complaining about this, they would see this as a form of apostasy, even though from God's perspective it wouldn't be. But in the case of 2 Thess 2:3, from God's perspective this would equal apostasy.

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: called to Postrib?

        Here's one of the other articles I said I would retrieve (on the Grk word in 2Th2:2):

        [quoting Kenneth S Wuest]

        "[Kenneth S. Wuest is a member of the Faculty of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, Illinois, and author of numerous books on New Testament Greek.]"

        "The Rapture: Precisely When?" - Kenneth S Wuest

        "The answer to these questions will only be convincing to the reader if it is based upon the rules of Biblical exegesis. [...<snip>...] That interpretation which is based upon the above rules is to be regarded as correct until it can be shown by the reapplication of the same rules that an error of human judgment has crept in.
        "There is such a thing, therefore, as a scientific method of studying the Word. The student who follows the rules of an experiment in chemistry brings that experiment to a successful conclusion. The student who does not ends up with an explosion. Just so, the student who conducts his study of the Bible along the scientific lines noted above arrives at the correct interpretation, and the student who does not at the wrong one. The exegetical method the student uses in answering the question with reference to the time of the rapture will determine whether he believes in a pretribulational or a posttribulational rapture.

        […<snip>...]

        "The words "a falling away" are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi [histemi] in its intransitive sense means "to stand," the prefixed preposition means "off, away from," and the compound verb, "to stand off from." The word does not mean "to fall." The Greeks had a word for that, piptw. Afisthmi, in its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: "to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one"; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means "to fall away, become faithless." The verb is rendered by the translators of the Authorized Version "to depart," in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27; Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. In Luke 8:13 it is translated "fall away," in Acts 5:37, "drew away," and in Acts 5:38, "refrain." Had they translated the word here instead of interpreting it, they would have rendered it by the word "departure." The reader will observe that the predominant translation of the verbal form is "to depart," also, that where it is translated "fall away," the context adds the idea of "falling away" to the verb, which action is still a departure.

        "E. Schuyler English, to whom this present writer is deeply indebted for calling his attention to the word "departure" as the correct rendering of apostasia in this context, also informs us that the following translators understood the Greek word to mean "a departure" in this context: Tyndale (1534), Coverdale (1535), the Geneva Bible (1537), Cranmer (1539), and Beza (1565), and so used it in their translations. Apostasia is used once more in the New Testament and is translated "to forsake" (AV), signifying a departure. The neuter noun apostasion in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 is rendered by the Authorized Version, "divorcement," which word also signifies a departure, here, from antecedent relations.
        "The writer is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times both in classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the word means "a rebel." But these are acquired meanings of the word gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church. The fact that our word "apostasy" means a defection from the truth is entirely beside the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word mean to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1 Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words "some shall depart from the faith" and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase "from the faith" indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context.

        "With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article before apostasia, of which the translation [kjv] takes no notice. A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. "The basal function of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark 'the object as definitely conceived,' for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article." This departure, whatever it is, is a particular one, one differentiated from all others. Another function of the article is "to denote previous reference." Here the article points out an object the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context." Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words "our gathering together unto him," not as the second advent, but as the rapture. The Greek word rendered "and" can also be translated "even," and the translation reads, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our gathering together unto him." [i.e. verse 1 speaks of our Rapture event, in its two phrases]

        "The article before apostasia defines that word by pointing to "the gathering together unto him" as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, not grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the rapture of 2 Thessalonians 2:1, not ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. The article is all-important here, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article. Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period [TDW: I would say, "must precede the [7-yr] tribulation period" to be more specific (for 'GREAT tribulation' refers only to the latter half of it)]. And we have answered our questions again. It might be added that the reason why Paul merely speaks of a pretribulation rather than a preseventieth week rapture is that he is addressing himself to the needs of the Thessalonian saints and is not explaining the particular place of the rapture in the prophetic program of God."

        --Kenneth S Wuest, "The Rapture--Precisely When?", Bibliotheca Sacra, BSac 114:453 (Jan 57), p.60

        [ www. galaxie . com/article/bsac114-453-05 ]


        [end quoting; bracketed inserts mine; bold and underline mine]

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: called to Postrib?

          This is another post I made awhile back (somewhat related... take note of the related Grk word/words):

          [quoting]

          646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure [...]; apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

          [or, lit. "a standing away [from a previous standing]" -- apo stasia (see apo stasis)]


          Liddell and Scott, in their Greek-English Lexicon (1871; page 93), has listed under "apostasia,"... "later form for apostasis; and under "apostasis,"... "2. departure or removal from."



          Hebrews 9:8-9a -

          "By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest, the first tabernacle still having a standing [*G4714 - stasin/stasis (from the base of "histemi [G2476]") - "an insurrection, dissension; originally: standing, position, place"], which is a symbol [parable/illustration/figure/similitude] for the present time..." Hebrews 9:8-9a


          *"G4714 - insurrection, uproar.

          "[G4714] From the base of histemi [G2476]; a standing (properly, the act), i.e. (by analogy) position (existence); by implication, a popular uprising; figuratively, controversy -- dissension, insurrection, X standing, uproar."


          [see also 2Cor5:1-4--a RAPTURE passage, when examined (see "our earthly house of tabernacle" vv.1,4)]

          [end quoting]

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: called to Postrib?

            ^ EDIT: along with that Hebrews 9:8-9a passage, I had meant to attach the following quote by Wm Kelly [source: BibleHub; his Commentary on Hebrews 9]

            [quoting]

            "[…] the tabernacle in the wilderness is before the writer, not the temple: so we saw in Heb. 3, 4, and so it is here and throughout. This is evident in the early verses of the chapter, summed up in "these things having been thus formed" or prepared, not only the tabernacle but its furniture; which differed in some essential respects from the temple, for it was the figure of the millennial kingdom and rest, as the tabernacle is of the resources of grace in Christ for the wilderness and its pilgrimage [that is, "the Church which is His body" "in this present age [singular]"] Hence the ark when set in the temple had neither the golden pot with manna therein nor Aaron's rod that budded (2 Chronicles 5:10), which we find carefully named in verse 4. With such wisdom markedly divine was the scripture inspired in the O.T. as in the N.T."

            --William Kelly, Commentary on Hebrews 9 (vv.8-9 in particular)

            [end quoting; bold and underline mine; bracketed comment mine; parenthesis original]

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: called to Postrib?

              So, with the Greek word "G4714 - stasis" (used 9x), what would it be like if one insisted that the 9th usage (here in Hebrews 9:8-9) meant the identical thing as it means in all other 8 usages (see below):

              [quoting from BibleHub]

              "Strong's Concordance
              stasis: standing, place, dissension
              Original Word: στάσις, εως, ἡ
              Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
              Transliteration: stasis
              Phonetic Spelling: (stas'-is)
              Definition: a rebel, revolutionist
              Usage:
              an insurrection, dissension; originally: standing, position, place."


              [and see the 9 usages at this link, right side of page]

              https://biblehub.com/greek/4714.htm


              ...see what happens if one would disregard the CONTEXT of this ONE [of NINE TOTAL] instance...


              not sure why this link doesn't "link" lol

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: called to Postrib?

                perhaps you can trace it back through here:

                https://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/9-8.htm

                nope, guess not!

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: called to Postrib?

                  Just like to say that the "Apostasy" of Antichrist appears to be a pagan encroachment upon Christian civilization, just as Antiochus 4 imposed upon the Jewish society, which had been under the Law. So, Antichrist leads in a Christian Apostasy in formerly Christian Europe, even though he himself is not Christian.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: called to Postrib?

                    Originally posted by randyk View Post
                    I've heard of Lazarus coming back from the dead, and of others who had not been dead so long that their corpses were there to be raised back to life. I've even heard of the vision of the dry bones coming back together. But when the elements of human bodies are scattered and integrated with the dust of the earth, I've never heard of them coming back in their old mortal bodies. Are you suggesting that the saints are coming back in *new* mortal bodies? I could never see the old, flawed human bodies coming back to life, nor would I ever want to come back in that!
                    Yes; that is a difficult issue, but remember Lazarus and Jesus lay dead for 3 days. Corruption must have commenced in them, so the raising of them both included a reversal of the normal decomposition process.

                    The raising of the martyred saints at Jesus' Return, Revelation 20:4, will be the same, they will come alive again in the same bodies that they were killed in. Warts and all. They will most probably die again, but the second death has no power over them and at the GWT Judgment, they will automatically receive immortality.

                    Here is an interesting article I just read today, on this subject:

                    The most dramatic illustration of what happens to us when we die can be seen in the passage from John 11:38-44 where Yeshua calls Lazarus back from the dead. He did not call him back out of heaven - but from out of the grave. Why? Because Lazarus was dead - not hanging out in some etherial netherland. There is no Hebrew thought in the Original Writings of a person's soul (which is translated as the English "spirit") being separated from the rest of what it means to be human. The division of man into "body-mind-soul" is a thoroughly Greek invention elaborated on by the Greek philosopher, Plato, in his book "the New Republic". The Hebrew word, nephesh has been translated into the English "soul" because of the influence of the Greek word psyche introduced into the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew Tanakh (OT), also known as the LXX). In the Hebraic perspective, however, human beings are one homogenized entity - the person, the nephesh. When the apostle Paul cites the Hebrew Habakkuk 2:4 in Romans 1:17 and Galatians 3:11, he is not speaking as if the soul could be saved but the body could not. Paul is speaking about the entire person, the Hebrew nephesh. Just as the verse in Habakkuk suggests, it is not a soul that is "puffed up", it is an entire way of being in the world that involves everything about a person - thoughts, choices, feelings, will and consequent actions. Compounding this doctrinal error is the unscriptural belief that humans possess an immortal soul. To this day, pastors within Christendom teach that, at death, the soul goes to a place called "heaven" for doing well, or to purgatory or "hell" for committing various degrees of evil. This concept of the immortality of the soul being something apart from the rest of a man only began appearing into what became "Christian" theology some 200 to 250 years after the Resurrection of Yeshua when the writings of Ignatius, Marcion and Origen began the process of syncretism (which is the merging or fusion of different systems of thought or belief). However, the scriptures themselves do not teach the immortality of the soul; rather, they reveal, "...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment; so Jesus, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to rescue from death those who are eagerly waiting for Him." (Hebrews 9:27, Matthew 16:27).
                    Neither do the scriptures reveal that when one dies, the soul goes to heaven or hell leaving the body behind. Rather, it clearly shows that when one dies they await the resurrection of the dead - both of the righteous and of the wicked (Daniel 12:2, John 5:25-29, 1Corinthians 15:24-28, Revelation 21:8).
                    The apostles were witnesses that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, fulfilling the Promise of God, that is vital to others within His Family having the hope of also being raised from the dead just as He was.

                    Yeshua did not resurrect Himself - that was the Father's doing. Had the Father not raised Him, He would still be there (Romans 8:11). Since there is no "time" in eternity, consequently, there is no time between a person's death and their resurrection. This is why scripture describes those who have died as being "asleep" because when you are asleep, there is no conscious awareness of the passage of time.
                    Ref: haRold Smith

                    Comment


                    • Re: called to Postrib?

                      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                      No one knew at that time. We are still in the indefinite age.

                      But when we see the antichrist come to power on Mt Zion amid deceiving signs and wonders, this is the final great tribulation and we shall know.

                      This does not contradict the wording said nearly 2000 years ago. No one knows, does not mean no one will ever know.

                      And taking this further, the thief is for the unsaved, we shall be ready, it won't be a thief for us : 2 Thess 4/5

                      For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
                      Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
                      The verse(s) you raise isn't about knowing WHEN the time will be, sure we know THAT He is to return. No one knows, at all WHEN! So the proper life is to BE ready for the IMMINENCE of Jesus' return. Imminence is about Jesus' return without ANY warning. Once the Trib begins, the countdown clock starts for His Glorious return in Power. That means, this appearing of Jesus is NOT imminent.

                      We are exhorted, you posted some of the scriptures, to BE ready at all times. Once the anti-christ comes to power, to BEGIN being ready is not being obedient to what scripture exhorts to us in that we have to ALWAYS be ready. We are exhorted to ALWAYS be faithful. But to begin because the rebellion in the Temple happens, revealing the Son of Perdition... well, to begin faithfulness counters how the faithful are to be.

                      Just like in many of the parables, if the master's time of return is known in "ANY WAY," people begin to "be" faithful (will begin to try to fill their lantern), thus the exhortation about ALWAYS being faithful (full) because of NEVER knowing when the master will return... reveals who is ready. As I raised with Randy, if the revealing of the Son of Perdition begins the countdown then Jesus' imminent return will not be like a thief in the night.
                      Slug1--out

                      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                      Comment


                      • Re: called to Postrib?

                        Originally posted by Keraz View Post
                        To all who hold to the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church:
                        Have you really considered any alternative to a 'rapture'? Because there are viable and scriptural end times scenarios where God's people remain on earth.
                        You need to know that many respected Bible scholars cast doubts on a rapture, if not actively refute that theory.

                        So the attitude of some 'rapture to heaven' believers, how they hold the moral high ground, is unwarranted and in some cases, amounts to a very judgmental and sometimes rude response to their fellow Christians.
                        This is a serious indictment against all who have strong beliefs but fail to really study to ascertain the truth, or comprehend any alternatives.

                        Is it really God's Plan to remove His people, so they avoid the tough times prophesied to come?
                        Why should He do that for this generation, when all the previous generations have faced persecutions?
                        'Rapture' believers say it is a secret thing, therefore it’s not clearly stated in the Bible. Not in the Bible? So it is in fact, unbiblical and comes under the category of mankinds teachings. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

                        Jesus warned us against being deceived; Paul said; that ravening wolves would deceive the flock, even from among the Christians men will distort the truth to get people to follow them. Acts 20:29-30
                        So, plainly; some are deceived and even if they may be in a majority, that does not mean their beliefs are true.
                        The rapture isn't to spare God's people tough times. As some have mentioned, Christians will go through tribulation and persecution in the end times but not God's final outpouring of wrath on the unbelieving world.

                        Regardless of what position you take on the timing, scripture clearly teaches that believers—both dead and alive—will be caught away to meet Christ in the air.

                        Comment


                        • Re: called to Postrib?

                          The Pretrib arguments I've heard rest heavily on the timing of 1 Thessalonians 2:3:

                          "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed. . ."

                          They say the white horse of Revelation 6 represents the man of sin leading the world into a false peace. But this isn't consistent with the other horses which represent situations not people. A better interpretation of the white horse, in my view, would be "deception." This is consistent with the others and is also consistent with teachings in the New Testament—including Christ's—which warn of great deception in the end times.

                          It's my belief that the man of sin will enter the world scene at the beginning of the final seven years, but won't be "revealed" until halfway through it.

                          Comment


                          • Re: called to Postrib?

                            Originally posted by Keraz View Post
                            Yes; that is a difficult issue, but remember Lazarus and Jesus lay dead for 3 days. Corruption must have commenced in them, so the raising of them both included a reversal of the normal decomposition process.
                            The Scriptures say that Jesus' body did *not* see corruption, right? And again, there is a *huge* difference between seeing a partly-decomposed body, like Lazarus' body, being "healed" and seeing the reintroduction of a previously-mortal body from the "dust."

                            Originally posted by Keraz
                            The raising of the martyred saints at Jesus' Return, Revelation 20:4, will be the same, they will come alive again in the same bodies that they were killed in. Warts and all. They will most probably die again, but the second death has no power over them and at the GWT Judgment, they will automatically receive immortality.

                            Here is an interesting article I just read today, on this subject:

                            The most dramatic illustration of what happens to us when we die can be seen in the passage from John 11:38-44 where Yeshua calls Lazarus back from the dead. He did not call him back out of heaven - but from out of the grave. Why? Because Lazarus was dead - not hanging out in some etherial netherland. There is no Hebrew thought in the Original Writings of a person's soul (which is translated as the English "spirit") being separated from the rest of what it means to be human. The division of man into "body-mind-soul" is a thoroughly Greek invention elaborated on by the Greek philosopher, Plato, in his book "the New Republic". The Hebrew word, nephesh has been translated into the English "soul" because of the influence of the Greek word psyche introduced into the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew Tanakh (OT), also known as the LXX). In the Hebraic perspective, however, human beings are one homogenized entity - the person, the nephesh. When the apostle Paul cites the Hebrew Habakkuk 2:4 in Romans 1:17 and Galatians 3:11, he is not speaking as if the soul could be saved but the body could not. Paul is speaking about the entire person, the Hebrew nephesh. Just as the verse in Habakkuk suggests, it is not a soul that is "puffed up", it is an entire way of being in the world that involves everything about a person - thoughts, choices, feelings, will and consequent actions. Compounding this doctrinal error is the unscriptural belief that humans possess an immortal soul. To this day, pastors within Christendom teach that, at death, the soul goes to a place called "heaven" for doing well, or to purgatory or "hell" for committing various degrees of evil. This concept of the immortality of the soul being something apart from the rest of a man only began appearing into what became "Christian" theology some 200 to 250 years after the Resurrection of Yeshua when the writings of Ignatius, Marcion and Origen began the process of syncretism (which is the merging or fusion of different systems of thought or belief). However, the scriptures themselves do not teach the immortality of the soul; rather, they reveal, "...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment; so Jesus, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to rescue from death those who are eagerly waiting for Him." (Hebrews 9:27, Matthew 16:27).
                            Neither do the scriptures reveal that when one dies, the soul goes to heaven or hell leaving the body behind. Rather, it clearly shows that when one dies they await the resurrection of the dead - both of the righteous and of the wicked (Daniel 12:2, John 5:25-29, 1Corinthians 15:24-28, Revelation 21:8).
                            The apostles were witnesses that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, fulfilling the Promise of God, that is vital to others within His Family having the hope of also being raised from the dead just as He was.
                            So you don't believe the departed saints exist at all? If their souls are not in heaven, and their bodies are completely corrupted and dissolved into the dust, you must think they don't exist anywhere, but have to be recalled out of nonexistence at the resurrection?

                            I don't agree with the author, however. I don't think the Greek language was corrupt in expressing these things in the Septuagint, although I'm sure the Septuagint had some errors. I do in fact believe the Bible speaks of souls without bodies, such as Samuel, when he appeared during King Saul's practice of calling up spirits. Furthermore, the sense that departed saints are "gathered to their fathers" appears to mean more than being gathered to a common grave! Paul refers to our being "with the Lord" the instant we depart from this life.

                            Originally posted by Keraz
                            Yeshua did not resurrect Himself - that was the Father's doing. Had the Father not raised Him, He would still be there (Romans 8:11). Since there is no "time" in eternity, consequently, there is no time between a person's death and their resurrection. This is why scripture describes those who have died as being "asleep" because when you are asleep, there is no conscious awareness of the passage of time.
                            Ref: haRold Smith
                            That seems more like fanciful language, trying to express the inexpressible to solve a problem? How can anybody say there is no time in eternity? In reality, God is eternal and created time. And so there is, in fact, time in eternity. There is no question in my mind that time exists between our death and our resurrection. Those who are dead right now still haven't been raised.

                            At the very least, *to us* there is time between their death and the time they are raised. To express how *they feel* in the intervening time makes no difference. There is still time, as we see it. And it therefore exists for them as well, if they are, like us, human and conscious. Obviously, I don't believe in "soul sleep."

                            Comment


                            • Re: called to Postrib?

                              Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
                              The Pretrib arguments I've heard rest heavily on the timing of 1 Thessalonians 2:3:

                              "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed. . ."

                              They say the white horse of Revelation 6 represents the man of sin leading the world into a false peace. But this isn't consistent with the other horses which represent situations not people. A better interpretation of the white horse, in my view, would be "deception." This is consistent with the others and is also consistent with teachings in the New Testament—including Christ's—which warn of great deception in the end times.

                              It's my belief that the man of sin will enter the world scene at the beginning of the final seven years, but won't be "revealed" until halfway through it.
                              I find it hard to see Antichrist appearing at the 1st part of a 7 year period, and actually being "revealed" in the last half of that period? If Antichrist begins his "ride" as the "White Horse" but is only "revealed" later, then it makes no sense to identify him as the "White Horse" at all!

                              I personally see the 4 Horses of the Apocalypse as angels, sent out by God to prepare the way for the coming of His Kingdom. The Antichrist, according to Dan 7, reigns for only 3.5 years. I personally believe there will be a small period of time extending beyond the time God gives him authority to reign, in which the world will be gathered to fight at Armageddon. Perhaps the world rebels against his authority at Armageddon--I don't know for sure.

                              But I can't see any way around the prohibition against Pretrib in 2 Thes 2? It not only prohibits the "revelation" of Antichrist before Christ coming for the Church, but it also prohibits Christ coming for the Church before Antichrist is actually *destroyed!* In fact, the outline there is that Christ will *only* come back for the purpose of destroying Antichrist!!

                              2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction... 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

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                              • Re: called to Postrib?

                                Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                                The verse(s) you raise isn't about knowing WHEN the time will be, sure we know THAT He is to return. No one knows, at all WHEN! So the proper life is to BE ready for the IMMINENCE of Jesus' return. Imminence is about Jesus' return without ANY warning. Once the Trib begins, the countdown clock starts for His Glorious return in Power. That means, this appearing of Jesus is NOT imminent.

                                We are exhorted, you posted some of the scriptures, to BE ready at all times. Once the anti-christ comes to power, to BEGIN being ready is not being obedient to what scripture exhorts to us in that we have to ALWAYS be ready. We are exhorted to ALWAYS be faithful. But to begin because the rebellion in the Temple happens, revealing the Son of Perdition... well, to begin faithfulness counters how the faithful are to be.

                                Just like in many of the parables, if the master's time of return is known in "ANY WAY," people begin to "be" faithful (will begin to try to fill their lantern), thus the exhortation about ALWAYS being faithful (full) because of NEVER knowing when the master will return... reveals who is ready. As I raised with Randy, if the revealing of the Son of Perdition begins the countdown then Jesus' imminent return will not be like a thief in the night.
                                There are only a few imminent verses, and if we are not careful at all times, then we may become more liberal, embracing all religions. Then when antichrist comes, we can get deceived like the rest.

                                In this way, we need to be ready at all times. But you are welcome to post your "imminence" verses, we can chat about them.

                                You will find that the main descriptions of the rapture are in second coming context, no secret rapture will occur before the second coming, but Paul expected to be a living believer at the rapture. At the coming of the Lord:

                                1 Thess 4 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep

                                1 Cor 15 as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

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