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  • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    Want to make sure I'm on the same page with you, so, is the following basically your position?

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,(meaning the resurrection and rapture event found in 1 Thess 4, thus not meaning the 2nd coming)
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand(meaning the DOTL which is not meaning the resurrection and rapture event found in 1 Thess 4).
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day(meaning the day of Christ in verse 2)shall not come, except there come a falling away first(meaning a departure, meaning the resurrection and rapture event found in 1 Thess 4, thus meaning verse 1), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition(not anything that has to be fulfilled before the departure can take place);
    I would say you are pretty much tracking with me now

    (… except, as you know, I believe the phrase in v.2 [I BOLDED in your post ^ ] is "day of the LORD" rather than "day of CHRIST" which I believe are entirely distinct things taking place in entirely distinct LOCATIONS and having entirely distinct PURPOSES)

    Comment


    • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

      ..and yes, v.3 is speaking of the same "DOTL" that verse 2 is speaking of (meaning an EARTHLY time period of much DURATION, etc)

      Comment


      • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

        Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
        ..and yes, v.3 is speaking of the same "DOTL" that verse 2 is speaking of (meaning an EARTHLY time period of much DURATION, etc)
        Let me ask this then. Per your position which comes first? The DOTL, or the revealing of the man of sin?

        Comment


        • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

          Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
          I would say you are pretty much tracking with me now

          (… except, as you know, I believe the phrase in v.2 [I BOLDED in your post ^ ] is "day of the LORD" rather than "day of CHRIST" which I believe are entirely distinct things taking place in entirely distinct LOCATIONS and having entirely distinct PURPOSES)
          Is my Strong's incorrect then? The Greek word it uses for Christ is Christos and not kurios instead.

          Comment


          • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

            Originally posted by divaD View Post
            Is my Strong's incorrect then? The Greek word it uses for Christ is Christos and not kurios instead.
            --for one, take a look at the various translations, here: https://biblehub.com/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm (some say one, the rest say the other)

            --secondly, different "INTERLINEARS" also show different Greek words there: Jay P Green's Interlinear and Geo Ricker Berry's Interlinear both show it as "[day of the] Christ"... the Nestle-Marshall Interlinear and the BibleHub interlinears show it to be saying "[day of the] Lord"... I think this is accounted for based on the different manuscripts (or possibly that the translators did not distinguish between [the phrases] "the Day of the Lord" [which ONLY EVER takes place ON THE EARTH, according to scripture, and is the EQUIVALENT the phrase "IN THAT DAY" where "the DOTL" is ALSO referred to in the SAME CONTEXTS] and that of "the Day of Christ" [which does NOT take place upon the earth])

            --thirdly, one can examine the text here in 2Th2, and decide WHICH one best FITS, when taking into consideration the "IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" meaning, "has ALREADY BEGUN at some POINT IN THE PAST and its EFFECTS are ONGOING in the PRESENT-->" and take into consideration what ELSE this text is conveying, to ascertain WHICH of these two BEST FITS (considering that false-conveyers were trying to convince them [or they were at risk of being convinced of] the idea that "[it] IS PRESENT" and considering their present and ongoing VERY NEGATIVE circumstances they were ONGOINGLY EXPERIENCING/ENDURING...and see WHICH of these two is MOST *REASONABLE* for them to have been [at risk, at least, of] having DISTRAUGHT MINDS over

            Comment


            • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

              Originally posted by divaD View Post
              Let me ask this then. Per your position which comes first? The DOTL, or the revealing of the man of sin?
              "the Day of the Lord [time period]" and "the man of sin" ARRIVE [meaning, are "in play" to unfold upon the earth, in what they are slated to do] at the SAME MOMENT... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 = Matt24:4/Mk13:5 TIME-WISE]" is what KICKS IT OFF (kicks off the "7-yr trib") and is the EQUIVALENT to the FIRST SEAL (and also Dan9:27a[26], "the prince THAT SHALL COME" [see 2Th2:9a/8a] [the 7-yr trib])

              Comment


              • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                v.3 "that day [the DOTL time period from v.2] will NOT be present if not shall have come [/happened] THE Departure *FIRST* [our Rapture IN THE AIR] AND the man of sin be revealed..." (I believe this is SEAL #1, the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of many more BPs that follow on from that INITIAL ONE)… so that this is saying, once the ONE THING *FIRST* takes place (our Rapture/THE Departure) THEN [immediately] the DOTL *WILL* be present to unfold upon the earth (WITH its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of that "DARK/DARKNESS / IN THE NIGHT time period; i.e. "IN HIS TIME")… so his "whose COMING" is at the START of those "7 yrs" (just like Dan9:27a[26] shows!!)

                Comment


                • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                  Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post

                  --so verse 1 and verse 2 are speaking of TWO DISTINCT THINGS
                  No, it's speaking of the same thing, the return of Christ. Some people thought it already happened, Paul is saying it cannot happen until the falling away and revealing of the man of sin occurs which means the great tribulation must happen first. That means a pre-trib rapture is impossible since the rapture happens when Christ returns.
                  James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                  Comment


                  • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                    but i hope you can at least see the reality of the revelation of the glory of God, the blessed hope of glory, Jesus Christ the righteous one, is what will reveal the man of sin.
                    Yes that is true but it happens at the end of the GT not before it. He will reveal to the world that the one who claimed to be God and did seem like a God was actually just a liar, the man of sin all along.
                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                      Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                      v.3 "that day [the DOTL time period from v.2] will NOT be present if not shall have come [/happened] THE Departure *FIRST* [our Rapture IN THE AIR]
                      That is misrepresenting what apostasia means. It does not mean to physically depart. It is departing from what you believe in a religious sense. Harpazo and apostasia means two very different things but a false harpazo will be part of why the apostasia happens.
                      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                      Comment


                      • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                        Yes that is true but it happens at the end of the GT not before it. He will reveal to the world that the one who claimed to be God and did seem like a God was actually just a liar, the man of sin all along.
                        Are you saying that the man of sin is not revealed Until Jesus comes at the time of Armageddon?

                        Be Blessed
                        The PuP

                        Comment


                        • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                          Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                          Are you saying that the man of sin is not revealed Until Jesus comes at the time of Armageddon?
                          It starts when Christ resurrects the two prophets. The world thought the AC was God, and defeating these people only showed how powerful he was but when they come back alive, the world will know this "God" was not the true God because only God can resurrect the dead...Christ that same day, likely moments after they rise into heaven...seeing Christ return will further this revealing of the truth. This is when many will want the rocks to fall on them because they fear the wrath that's coming.
                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                          Comment


                          • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                            That is misrepresenting what apostasia means. It does not mean to physically depart. It is departing from what you believe in a religious sense. Harpazo and apostasia means two very different things but a false harpazo will be part of why the apostasia happens.
                            First of all (regarding your latter point), I disagree... because Paul uses VARIOUS terms to speak of the event [we call] our Rapture... and in these two epistles he refers to it something like TEN TIMES (again, using a VARIETY of terms and phrases to speak of it).

                            Next (regarding your first point at top of your quote above), I disagree again... and my explanation for my disagreement [just a small smattering of reasons] will have to come in two posts (it's too big for one post, I think)… though I've mentioned these [the following] already a number of times throughout several of these threads on this topic.

                            [my reasons follow, in two posts--these are only a SMALL PORTION, coz I've already made recent posts giving further points THERE]


                            646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure [...]; apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

                            [or, lit. "a standing away [from a previous standing]" -- apo stasia (see also apo stasis)]


                            Liddell and Scott, in their Greek-English Lexicon (1871; page 93), has listed under "apostasia: ... "later form for apostasis; and under "apostasis,"... "2. departure or removal from."


                            [see my Post which was about the RELATED word used in Hebrews 9:8-9, and what those verses are about where they say, "the first tabernacle [the one 'in the wilderness' per the DESCRIPTION in vv.3-4] yet having A STANDING [G4714 - stasin / stasis], which is a parable for the present time" [note in that Post, what I've said about this... ALSO take note of how ALL OTHER references of THIS word are translated to mean a NEGATIVE thing, EXCEPT HERE in this ONE instance! (and recall how this Greek word is RELATED to the word under discussion!)]

                            _______


                            [ quoting JB Hixson ]

                            "In the first century, we see apostasia used by the historian,
                            Josephus, in a political sense (Jos. Vit., 43) to
                            signify a rebellion against civil authority. However,
                            the term was also used during this time to describe a
                            fever departing from an ill person, and a boat departing
                            from a dock." --JB Hixson

                            [ end quoting ]

                            _______

                            [quoting G Harry Leafe article]

                            --The Use of Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 • Scriptel.org (G. Harry Leafe)

                            " It has also been used of the departure of a fever from an ill person. 10"

                            "10 Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. 1996. A Greek-English lexicon. "With a revised supplement, 1996." (Rev. and augm. throughout /). Clarendon Press; Oxford University Press: Oxford; New York., p. 218. "

                            http://www.scriptel.org/wp-content/u...alonians-2.pdf

                            [possibly some caveats regarding the rest of the article, I don't exactly recall what all it covered, but THIS point quoted above is what I'm pointing out here]

                            _______

                            "In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”[8]"

                            --Dr Thomas Ice article

                            _______

                            [quoting H. Wayne House]

                            "[B]The Use of the Definite Article with apostasia

                            "One finds the use of the Greek article with apostasia in 2 Thess 2:3. Another example of this in 1 Macc 2:15, where defection from the Old Testament faith is generally viewed to be the proper translation of he apostasia. "And those who came from the king were compelling the defection in the city of Modein, in order to sacrifice." (1 Macc 2:15). What is the significance of these two instances? Similar to this passage in 1 Maccabees, 2 Thess 2:3 has the article and no qualifiers, such as defection from God, so the context is determinative for the meaning of apostasia. In the first two chapters of 1 Maccabees there is a description of the Greek victory of Israel by Alexander the Greek until the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, with the latter king invading Judah and enforcing a desecration of the temple. When one studies the context of 2 Thess 2:13 in the same way, the context speaks of the coming of Christ for the church and the coming man of sin after the restrainer is removed."

                            --H. Wayne House, "Is the Rapture Found in 2 Thessalonians 2:3?"

                            https://www.pre-trib.org/pretribfile...theRapture.pdf

                            [with minor caveats; bold and underline mine--keep this article excerpt in mind when reading the other parts of these 2 posts I'm making]

                            [continue to next post--since I cannot "proof-read" so to speak, I'm hoping this post doesn't flub up in some way ]

                            Comment


                            • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                              [continued]


                              [quoting TDW/myself ]

                              I believe the "24 elders" [sitting on "thrones" and wearing "CROWNS/stephanos of gold"] (shown IN HEAVEN before the opening of the FIRST SEAL) represent "the Church which is His body," and the manuscript evidence shows that Rev5:9 says "US," whereas v.10 has a word that [you could say] in the Grk refers to "THEY/THEM" [though not actually in the Grk, but in the form of another word there]... So that this section is referring to a kind of "antiphonal singing" with more voices being added even further on in the passage. Paul said he would be given "a crown" "IN THAT DAY," for example... [this, per context, being "the Day of Christ / the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ" (not "the DOTL" which unfolds upon THE EARTH)]



                              IOW, some translators endeavored to make the two verses in Rev5 [vv.9 and 10] MATCH (to say the same thing as each other), whereas they do not (i.e. it says [B]"US"[/B[ in verse 9 where the 24 elders are saying this, but NOT v.10! [which then is, in the "antiphonal singing" model, the 4 living creatures saying it OF the 24 elders, who I believe represent "the Church which is His body"])



                              [and] Re: verse 9, 23 out of the 24 manuscripts have "US" in v.9; 1 manuscript out of the 24 has no pronoun and leaves it blank (that is, for v.9).


                              Then, the TR changes v.10 to make it "agree" with v.9 ("US"), whereas all other translations have "they/them" in v.10.


                              _______


                              [quoting Wm Kelly on 1Chron25 (source: BibleHub under "Commentary"), in view of what I put in another post (and in short version, above) about Hebrews 9:8-9 and the "the tabernacle yet having A STANDING, which is a parable for the time present" and the "STASIN/STASIS" word used there (related to the "a standing away [from a previous standing]"--"apo stasis / apo stasia")]



                              "In 1 Chronicles 25 we have the service of song. "Moreover, David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals." It is called "prophesying" because it so directly brought in God, which is the emphatic meaning of prophesying. "And the number of the workmen according to their service was" - so and so. There were twenty-four courses of the singers. Now, this was another remarkable change. In the tabernacle, song was not the characteristic feature, but sacrifice; but in the temple in the day of glory, the song of triumph is the new and suitable feature."


                              --William Kelly, 1 Chronicles 25 [see especially verse 7]


                              [note: v.1 "with harps [see Rev5], with psalteries ['earthen vessels'], and with cymbals"...hmmm...]

                              [see again my previous excerpts, in the post above this one ]

                              Comment


                              • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                                Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                                First of all (regarding your latter point), I disagree... because Paul uses VARIOUS terms to speak of the event [we call] our Rapture...
                                The word only means to depart somehow from the beliefs or faith one has. It's a religious departing, not a physical departing. It's used twice in scripture and that's what it means.

                                G646
                                ἀποστασία
                                apostasia
                                ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
                                Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
                                Total KJV occurrences: 2

                                Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                                First of all (regarding your latter point), I disagree... because Paul uses VARIOUS terms to speak of the event [we call] our Rapture...
                                The word only means to depart somehow from the beliefs or faith one has. It's a religious departing, not a physical departing. It's used twice in scripture and that's what it means.

                                G646
                                ἀποστασία
                                apostasia
                                ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
                                Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
                                Total KJV occurrences: 2
                                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                                Comment

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