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  • #16
    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Pretribs think that the church or the holy spirit is the restrainer, but the text doesn't actually point to that.

    The church does not keep secrets. It is an evil entity that is keeping the identity of lawlessness a secret. That evil entity needs to be removed, then the lawless one is exposed.

    This event occurs 42 months before the end, not 7 years. We know this because Rev 13 associates the coming to power of the beast with the same deceiving signs and wonders, for 42 months of reign, not 84 months of reign.
    What makes you think it is an evil entity that is restraining the appearance of Antichrist?

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

      Originally posted by randyk View Post
      I, like so many others, have tried, in the past, to determine who and what the "Restrainer" was, inhibiting the coming of Antichrist. No matter whether I fit into that slot the Holy Spirit, or the Church, or something else, nothing worked, until I went back to see how this teaching was in some way successful in instructing the Church in history. I did find that in the Early Church there was benefit from this teaching when recognizing that the Roman government was the referent of this "Restrainer." As in other similar passages of Scriptures Rome was not directly referenced in a negative way, to avoid appearing to express dissension.

      Those familiar with Daniel's prophecies would've known that the 4th Kingdom in Dan 7 was the Roman Kingdom, which had to precede its fragmentation into 10 nations and 7 leaders before Antichrist appears. Therefore, it was, in Paul's day, the Roman government, as a unified empire, that restrained the coming of Antichrist. The Roman government had to fragment 1st before Antichrist could come. Therefore, Paul supported the continuing unity and authority of the Roman government in maintaining law and order, despite its great corruption--despite the fact the power of lawlessness was within it.
      For me, the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit empowered "church/Body of Christ." Once this Body is taken away by Christ, then the end times begins soon after. While people still come to believe unto Christ during the Tribulation, the Holy Spirit still seals them but the church is not utilized as a restrainer anymore as the events unfold during the Tribulation.
      Slug1--out

      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
        The secret of lawlessness is exposed, and the lawless one is revealed when the entire world is deceived by signs and wonders, 42 months from the end.

        Whatever your viewpoint should have an entity being removed at that timing, 42 months before the end. This is the timing of the revealing of 2 Thess 2.
        True. When the restraint is removed, the Antichrist will appear. When the restraint stops, Antichrist indulges.

        My argument is based on the Church Fathers' view of the Restrainer. He is not just a Restraint--a thing. He is also a Restrainer--a person. So the Church Fathers saw the Restrainer as Roman leadership, establishing law and order, even if under an ungodly government. Paul said that God establishes the political authorities, and uses them to impose social order. That means, God stands behind Roman authority, preventing the rise of Antichrist, even though the Roman Empire itself was originally a form of "Antichrist."

        The restraint of Roman leadership has never ended in the present age, since the Empire was perpetuated by Eastern and Western forms of this Empire into modern times. We still have the European States, which originated from the Roman imperial system, even if they had become Christianized European States.

        As Europe coalesces into a new Roman entity, and becomes increasingly paganized, we still have a measure of law and order until the time for Roman leadership to be removed, making way for the Antichrist to assume control.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
          It is an evil entity that is keeping the identity of lawlessness a secret. That evil entity needs to be removed, then the lawless one is exposed.

          I'm not seeing the logic in this, as if the one being exposed is not an evil entity as well.

          Before we even get to that verse, what is your understanding of the previous verse? Maybe you already provided that in this thread, and if that is the case, I still have yet to read through this thread, which would explain why I wouldn't know whether you did or not.

          2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


          How does verse 6 appear to read to you? The following is how it appears to read to me, though I acknowledge I may be reading it wrong, thus not dogmatic about this.


          2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth(that day, the day of Christ) that he(the man of sin) might be revealed in his(the man of sin) time.


          Before this verse and after this verse, it is the man of sin needing to be revealed, thus holding back the day of Christ from occurring until the former is fulfilled first.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

            These are my ideas on 2Thess 2 in blue


            2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?



            Our gathering to the Lord in Glory will not happen until the Lord comes , appears.
            There will be great apostasy and lawlessness and the love of the great body of people will grow coldest , before he comes to gather us.




            6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.




            Nevertheless The Gospel will be preached to the whole world ( every tribe, tongue, race) and then the end will come.




            7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.




            The appearing of Jesus coming will destroy the revealing of satans activity in all power and deception.





            11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.




            After the Gospel is preached everywhere , God will send a deluding influence upon those who will perish , those who received not the love of his Gospel.
            Salvation through the sanctification of the Spirit and Faith in the Gospel will come to an end at his coming , appearing.





            13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
            16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.




            satans activity in all power of deception results in the revealing of the man of lawlessness, and he is restrained from bringing this about until the Gospel is first preached to Gods satisfaction.
            Then will come the end , when God will send a deluding influence upon those who perish for rejecting the Gospel and believe his lie, the lie of the man of lawlessness.
            And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

              Originally posted by divaD View Post
              I'm not seeing the logic in this, as if the one being exposed is not an evil entity as well.

              Before we even get to that verse, what is your understanding of the previous verse? Maybe you already provided that in this thread, and if that is the case, I still have yet to read through this thread, which would explain why I wouldn't know whether you did or not.

              2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


              How does verse 6 appear to read to you? The following is how it appears to read to me, though I acknowledge I may be reading it wrong, thus not dogmatic about this.


              2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth(that day, the day of Christ) that he(the man of sin) might be revealed in his(the man of sin) time.


              Before this verse and after this verse, it is the man of sin needing to be revealed, thus holding back the day of Christ from occurring until the former is fulfilled first.
              My repeated mention of the text itself, does indicate that the one being exposed is an evil entity, he is the "man of sin" or "man of lawlessness". The text describes another entity holding back the revealing, in essence the other entity (the restrainer of the antichrist's identity) is keeping the secret power a secret. When the restrainer is removed, then the secret is no longer a secret, and the lawless one is revealed. I see v6 as describing this, Satan is holding back the secret identity of lawlessness, he can do so while he is located in the heavenlies, deceiving the nations. When he is taken out the way the lawless one will be revealed.

              The timing is the gospel, imagine Satan as atop his huge tree, keeping the nations in shade, in the dark. The church is the gospel axe/sword slowly chopping away at the tree by spreading the gospel, and when we have overcome the tree comes crashing down, and Satan and his man of sin are exposed here on the ground. We are near that tipping point. we do not want his full wrath exposed here on earth via the antichrist at this time. The world is not ready for the persecution and death that will follow the full revealing of evil on earth. The gospel is still spreading to the last tribes on earth, the church needs our full strength and numbers until then. Once we have that victory of our testimony, then Satan will be thrown down to earth for the final 3.5 years. The nations will have heard the gospel then, evil can be more fully exposed at that time, the man of sin is revealed to the world in deceiving signs and wonders for a short period of rule.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                Originally posted by randyk View Post
                True. When the restraint is removed, the Antichrist will appear. When the restraint stops, Antichrist indulges.

                My argument is based on the Church Fathers' view of the Restrainer. He is not just a Restraint--a thing. He is also a Restrainer--a person. So the Church Fathers saw the Restrainer as Roman leadership, establishing law and order, even if under an ungodly government. Paul said that God establishes the political authorities, and uses them to impose social order. That means, God stands behind Roman authority, preventing the rise of Antichrist, even though the Roman Empire itself was originally a form of "Antichrist."

                The restraint of Roman leadership has never ended in the present age, since the Empire was perpetuated by Eastern and Western forms of this Empire into modern times. We still have the European States, which originated from the Roman imperial system, even if they had become Christianized European States.

                As Europe coalesces into a new Roman entity, and becomes increasingly paganized, we still have a measure of law and order until the time for Roman leadership to be removed, making way for the Antichrist to assume control.
                Thanks, I understand your position more fully now. Although surely the Roman leadership via the antichrist is more fully established at the revealing, how is it removed? Have you any supporting verses for this removal?

                The logic of my view has the Thessalonians restrainer being removed 42 months before the end, which just happens to be the same moment that Rev 12 Satan loses a war in the heavenlies and is removed from there and cast down to earth for 1260 days.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                  Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post

                  The timing is the gospel, imagine Satan as atop his huge tree, keeping the nations in shade, in the dark. The church is the gospel axe/sword slowly chopping away at the tree by spreading the gospel, and when we have overcome the tree comes crashing down, and Satan and his man of sin are exposed here on the ground. We are near that tipping point.
                  Jesus already saw satan come crashing down when he sent out the seventy. He has one little season left ,once we are done with our priestly duties. Then comes the deluding influence sent by God for those that perish.



                  lk 10
                  17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” 18 And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

                  19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”
                  21 At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, “I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.
                  And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                    Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
                    Jesus already saw satan come crashing down when he sent out the seventy. He has one little season left ,once we are done with our priestly duties. Then comes the deluding influence sent by God for those that perish.



                    lk 10
                    17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” 18 And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

                    19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”
                    21 At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, “I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.
                    Are you saying that Satan actually fell from heaven at that moment during Jesus' ministry before the crucifixion?

                    The fall of Satan from heaven in Rev 12 has more detail and follows a period of not just testimony of the church, but also martyrdom. Satan certainly will not fall twice from heaven, yet Rev 12 requires the blood of the lamb and a period of overcoming and martyrdom first before Satan falls from his heavenly place.

                    I therefore suggest that Jesus wasn't witnessing the actual event occurring in his day, but was seeing a prophetic vision of the victory to come in the future as the church continues the work which was started by the 70 being sent out.


                    Rev 12:
                    They triumphed over him
                    by the blood of the Lamb
                    and by the word of their testimony;
                    they did not love their lives so much
                    as to shrink from death.
                    12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
                    and you who dwell in them!
                    But woe to the earth and the sea,
                    because the devil has gone down to you!
                    He is filled with fury,
                    because he knows that his time is short.”

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                      Thanks, I understand your position more fully now. Although surely the Roman leadership via the antichrist is more fully established at the revealing, how is it removed? Have you any supporting verses for this removal?

                      The logic of my view has the Thessalonians restrainer being removed 42 months before the end, which just happens to be the same moment that Rev 12 Satan loses a war in the heavenlies and is removed from there and cast down to earth for 1260 days.
                      No, I don't know, and don't have any more info or thoughts on it. It's an excellent question, and I will be mulling it over. Something has to trigger this, and I know this much--the Antichrist will assume a position of authority and oversee an overthrow of 3 of the European states--significant ones.

                      I don't know if the removal of restraint is intended to be an event in itself, or simply an explanation for why the Antichrist has not come yet? If you get any ideas, let me know!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                        Originally posted by randyk View Post
                        No, I don't know, and don't have any more info or thoughts on it. It's an excellent question, and I will be mulling it over. Something has to trigger this, and I know this much--the Antichrist will assume a position of authority and oversee an overthrow of 3 of the European states--significant ones.

                        I don't know if the removal of restraint is intended to be an event in itself, or simply an explanation for why the Antichrist has not come yet? If you get any ideas, let me know!
                        It certainly is an event :
                        For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

                        The restrainer is keeping the secret of lawlessness . Then there is a definite moment when he is "taken out of the way".

                        There is a finite period of 3.5 years at the end of the age. We are currently in the indefinite period, and the finite period (the end) will not come until the gospel is preached to all nations.

                        Satan's deception and secrecy continues on, until the church will spread the gospel to the whole world. At that moment Satan is overcome and will be removed and exposed via the antichrist.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                          Are you saying that Satan actually fell from heaven at that moment during Jesus' ministry before the crucifixion?

                          The fall of Satan from heaven in Rev 12 has more detail and follows a period of not just testimony of the church, but also martyrdom. Satan certainly will not fall twice from heaven, yet Rev 12 requires the blood of the lamb and a period of overcoming and martyrdom first before Satan falls from his heavenly place.

                          I therefore suggest that Jesus wasn't witnessing the actual event occurring in his day, but was seeing a prophetic vision of the victory to come in the future as the church continues the work which was started by the 70 being sent out.


                          Rev 12:
                          They triumphed over him
                          by the blood of the Lamb
                          and by the word of their testimony;
                          they did not love their lives so much
                          as to shrink from death.
                          12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
                          and you who dwell in them!
                          But woe to the earth and the sea,
                          because the devil has gone down to you!
                          He is filled with fury,
                          because he knows that his time is short.”
                          I think satans fall (defeat) has nothing to do with us but everything to do with Jesus. He empowered them and they got the results through the testimony that he gave them....even before he shed his Holy blood.
                          And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                            Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
                            I think satans fall (defeat) has nothing to do with us but everything to do with Jesus. He empowered them and they got the results through the testimony that he gave them....even before he shed his Holy blood.
                            The church is by definition everything to do with Jesus.

                            Rev 12 is clear that the fall of Satan involves the crucifixion (blood of Jesus) and martyrdom (don't shrink from death), and therefore did not occur during the sending of the 70.

                            The sending of the 70 started the process of the fall of Satan, that is why Jesus saw that vision at that time, the victory of the gospel.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                              I think the restrainer is the same thing that restrains any big event...time or timing. Not a person or anything, just whatever needs to happen before something else happens.
                              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                                I think the restrainer is the same thing that restrains any big event...time or timing. Not a person or anything, just whatever needs to happen before something else happens.
                                I like to go with the best fit of the text. The text seems to point to an actual entity that needs to be taken out of the way.

                                For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

                                An actual entity is currently holding the secret power of lawlessness back, and has to be actually removed for the lawlessness to be revealed.

                                That's my methodology, to go with the most apparent meaning of the text if possible.

                                Comment

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