RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

[journeyman]

Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

Iniquity isn't a mystery to believers. Who is behind the iniquity isn't a mystery to believers either.

The "man of sin", whether on a small or large scale, is seen when people reject the Lord.

[TheDivineWatermark]

Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

Sure seems Rev 13 is clear in that each beast is not the same person, specifically v11+ Each has a purpose where the 2nd beast complements the 1st beast in that both are empowered supernaturally the same but the 2nd beast uses their power to point (deceive) all eyes, ears, and hearts at/too the 1st beast in effort to get the world to worship the 1st beast.

Clearly two separate persons.

If I'm reading you right, this is how I see it also.

The first beast (out from the sea, v.1), being both a governmental entity and an individual (the "mouth [/spokesperson]" of both this passage and Dan7) being distinct from the false prophet (second beast, "out from the earth") seems to "do what he does" at the mid-trib+ point in the chronology (which is vv.11-18) in support/backing of the first beast, in order to "cause the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed"

[I'm inclined to believe the phrase "whose deadly wound was healed" refers to the governmental entity aspect ("one of his heads as it were wounded to death" v.3 ['having 7 heads and ten horns' v.1--also Rev17:3]), rather than the individual man aspect, but I can't say with absolute certainty yet]

[ewq1938]

Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

A beast being an empire, and also a demon king in control of that empire.

Sure but you have a third person in your interpretation of Rev 13 where the text does not. Rev 13 only gives us the beast empire, and the false prophet as it's leader. The empire having a mouth doesn't make there a person speaking. That's a corporate mouth of the empire itself. Even Babylon which isn't a literal woman speaks various things. I'm just saying having a mouth and speaking doesn't have to be a person with a mouth. In Daniel the empire does not have a mouth, but the little horn does so things are reversed there. The image of the beast spoke too and it isn't a person and the FP spoke. All three spoke things, but not all are singular persons.

[ewq1938]

Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

In other words, without the falling away first of the lawless one

The falling away is Christians forsaking Christ for a false God. It is not referring to the man of sin/son of perdition.

[ewq1938]

Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

I recently did a Google search for the false prophet is the antichrist. Initially I wasn't finding any links where anyone was concluding that. Then finally after browsing through many pages of hits by Google, the following link shows up in my search query. So I went to the link, the article is 6 parts. I read all 6 parts. Some of the arguments I found somewhat convincing. The author made some good points. I'm not as of yet convinced the ac and the fp are one and the same though. But I did see the logic in some of his arguments. So I'm still thinking it over.

Here's the link if anyone wants to take a look at it. Even though it's 6 parts, it's a pretty easy read for the most part.

https://www.babylonsingularity.com/j...why-it-matters

He makes great points, ones that I have also tried to make here.

"And even more problematic, traditional eschatology has led us to the point of accepting the very strange and unbiblical notion that nowhere is the False Prophet prefigured in the Bible outside the book of Revelation. Isn’t it strange that the Apostle Paul never mentions the False Prophet? The Apostle John never mentions the False Prophet in his letters. Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel never mention the False Prophet. Jesus never mentions him. While all warn against false prophets in general, not one mention is made of the False Prophet specifically as a separate, specific individual that assists the Antichrist. Why can’t we find a prefigured False Prophet outside of Revelation? There is a very troubling prefigurement void."

[ewq1938]

Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

Rev 16.13; 19.20; 20.10. These seem to show 2 men--not an empire and a man.

And Is Babylon a literal woman? Is the bride of Christ a woman? An empire is represented as a beast, an animal of some kind. It's that way all through the bible. That doesn't make it a person even if it is said to have a mouth and speak and is worshiped. The problem with metaphors is non-persons can have human like characteristics. The woman in Rev seems like a person too but it isn't...it's a bunch of people God is protecting. The first beats is also a bunch of people that Satan uses to form ten kingdoms. That united kingdoms form one large empire and the empire speaks and is referred to as a male animal, a he. It isn't a person though.

[randyk]

Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

And Is Babylon a literal woman? Is the bride of Christ a woman? An empire is represented as a beast, an animal of some kind. It's that way all through the bible. That doesn't make it a person even if it is said to have a mouth and speak and is worshiped. The problem with metaphors is non-persons can have human like characteristics. The woman in Rev seems like a person too but it isn't...it's a bunch of people God is protecting. The first beats is also a bunch of people that Satan uses to form ten kingdoms. That united kingdoms form one large empire and the empire speaks and is referred to as a male animal, a he. It isn't a person though.

I'm not really trying to convince you otherwise--just stating the reason for why I believe as I do. Yes, it's difficult, when symbolism is used, to know precisely what the symbol represents. It appears that both Paul and John interpreted the Antichrist to be a man. And that is based on the symbolism used in Dan 7. So I transfer that understanding to the book of Revelation. That means (to me) that the 1st Beast, relating to Dan 7, is a man who overseas an empire consisting of 10 nations and 7 leaders.

[Slug1]

Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

If I'm reading you right, this is how I see it also.

The first beast (out from the sea, v.1), being both a governmental entity and an individual (the "mouth [/spokesperson]" of both this passage and Dan7) being distinct from the false prophet (second beast, "out from the earth") seems to "do what he does" at the mid-trib+ point in the chronology (which is vv.11-18) in support/backing of the first beast, in order to "cause the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed"

[I'm inclined to believe the phrase "whose deadly wound was healed" refers to the governmental entity aspect ("one of his heads as it were wounded to death" v.3 ['having 7 heads and ten horns' v.1--also Rev17:3]), rather than the individual man aspect, but I can't say with absolute certainty yet]

Has any governmental entity ever been recorded in the Bible or in history as being the object of worship? satan desires the worship, has from the beginning. This 7 year period, 1st half where satan establishes and lines up for that desecration in the temple and then declares "godhood" and forcing/deceiving the world (via the false prophet) all throughout the second half until Jesus shuts him, the fp and all the worshipers, down at the end of that 2nd half of the Trib.

Can't be a government, satan wouldn't stand for something else besides him... worshiped during this time.

[divaD]

Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

Has any governmental entity ever been recorded in the Bible or in history as being the object of worship? satan desires the worship, has from the beginning. This 7 year period, 1st half where satan establishes and lines up for that desecration in the temple and then declares "godhood" and forcing/deceiving the world (via the false prophet) all throughout the second half until Jesus shuts him, the fp and all the worshipers, down at the end of that 2nd half of the Trib.

Can't be a government, satan wouldn't stand for something else besides him... worshiped during this time.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


And they worshipped the dragon(is satan) which gave power unto the beast

and they worshipped the beast(is not satan)

Unless the dragon and the beast are one and the same, this equals 2 entities being worshiped. So it looks like to me satan gets worshiped regardless.

[Slug1]

Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


And they worshipped the dragon(is satan) which gave power unto the beast

and they worshipped the beast(is not satan)

Unless the dragon and the beast are one and the same, this equals 2 entities being worshiped. So it looks like to me satan gets worshiped regardless.

To say that satan and the beast are not the same is the SAME as saying God and the Holy Spirit are not the same.

[divaD]

Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

To say that satan and the beast are not the same is the SAME as saying God and the Holy Spirit are not the same.

I think I said one and the same, which is a bit different than the same. For example, assuming you are trinitarian, you are not saying the Father and the Holy Spirit are one and the same though, or that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, or that the Father and Jesus are one and the same. So I was meaning in that way.

[divaD]

Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

And Is Babylon a literal woman? Is the bride of Christ a woman? An empire is represented as a beast, an animal of some kind. It's that way all through the bible. That doesn't make it a person even if it is said to have a mouth and speak and is worshiped. The problem with metaphors is non-persons can have human like characteristics. The woman in Rev seems like a person too but it isn't...it's a bunch of people God is protecting. The first beats is also a bunch of people that Satan uses to form ten kingdoms. That united kingdoms form one large empire and the empire speaks and is referred to as a male animal, a he. It isn't a person though.

What ever the beast is, it has to be an entity of some kind if it is cast alive into the LOF according to Rev 19. If the beast consists of numerous people, that indicates numerous people get cast alive into the LOF at the 2nd coming. Because whatever the beast is, all of it is cast into the LOF alive at the 2nd coming.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone .

[Slug1]

Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

I think I said one and the same, which is a bit different than the same. For example, assuming you are trinitarian, you are not saying the Father and the Holy Spirit are one and the same though, or that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, or that the Father and Jesus are one and the same. So I was meaning in that way.

Understood now.

[TheDivineWatermark]

Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

Has any governmental entity ever been recorded in the Bible or in history as being the object of worship? satan desires the worship, has from the beginning. This 7 year period, 1st half where satan establishes and lines up for that desecration in the temple and then declares "godhood" and forcing/deceiving the world (via the false prophet) all throughout the second half until Jesus shuts him, the fp and all the worshipers, down at the end of that 2nd half of the Trib.

Can't be a government, satan wouldn't stand for something else besides him... worshiped during this time.

I'm not saying there isn't an individual [a person] also... just that, well, lemme put it like this: "the TIMES of the Gentiles" speaks of that which started in 606/606bc and represents "Gentile domination over Israel" [think: Neb's "dream/image/statue" with Neb as "head of gold"...<---so this particular aspect included both "Babylon" and "Neb [as head of gold]" in connection with each other]; in the future, I believe the AC is the "mouth [/spokesperson / mouthpiece / individual person]" in both Dan7:20-25 and Rev13:5-7,1 , but this "individual person" is not disconnected from the "governmental-type" aspect OF "the beast [-system]" overall. I believe where Rev19:20 says "the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet... these two/both were cast alive/living into the lake of fire..." that in this verse it refers to the individual-person-beast (along with the false prophet); In Rev13:1 "beast out from the sea" I think likely refers to the "governmental-type" aspect with the later mention of "a MOUTH" speaking of the "individual-person" aspect of it. So it just seems to me that depending on context, any given passage could be covering either aspect (the individual-person aspect, and/or the overall-governmental aspect, similarly to that of Neb / Babylon).

Make sense?

.

*606/605bc [edit correction]

[TheDivineWatermark]

Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

*the individual being DESCRIBED in Dan7:20 "whose look is more stout than his fellows"