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RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

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  • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not really trying to convince you otherwise--just stating the reason for why I believe as I do. Yes, it's difficult, when symbolism is used, to know precisely what the symbol represents. It appears that both Paul and John interpreted the Antichrist to be a man. And that is based on the symbolism used in Dan 7. So I transfer that understanding to the book of Revelation. That means (to me) that the 1st Beast, relating to Dan 7, is a man who overseas an empire consisting of 10 nations and 7 leaders.
    It says there are ten leaders of those ten kingdoms. If the ten horned beast in Daniel is not a man overseeing these ten nations, then neither is there such a person in Rev 13:1's first beast. The leader always is the next one to be mentioned and that one is the FP. He is the 8th king and is of the 7th, a dual role. I can even get behind the idea that one role of his is AC and one is FP as long as we are talking about one person not two.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

      Originally posted by divaD View Post
      I recently did a Google search for the false prophet is the antichrist. Initially I wasn't finding any links where anyone was concluding that. Then finally after browsing through many pages of hits by Google, the following link shows up in my search query. So I went to the link, the article is 6 parts. I read all 6 parts. Some of the arguments I found somewhat convincing. The author made some good points. I'm not as of yet convinced the ac and the fp are one and the same though. But I did see the logic in some of his arguments. So I'm still thinking it over.

      Here's the link if anyone wants to take a look at it. Even though it's 6 parts, it's a pretty easy read for the most part.
      One thought to consider in all this...

      you may have heard it said that:

      --"[out from] THE SEA" represents "the nationS" (i.e. the Gentiles) [v.1 "having seven heads and ten horns" (same as Rev17:3,7[8 "the beast that was, and IS NOT, and YET SHALL BE",10,11,12,13,16)]

      --"[out from] THE EARTH" represents "Israel" [v.11 - "two horns like a lamb... spake as a dragon"]--could this be something [/someone] like the individual (that is, from Israel) being spoken of in John 5:43 (since He's speaking to Jews/Israel, here)Ö just a thought!


      [examples might be: in Matt13 where "the kingdom of the heavens" is compared to "treasure hid in a field" [comp. Ex19:5 re: Israel]; "one pearl of great price" [pearls being found in the "sea"]; "a net, cast into the sea... gathered of every kind"; there are other better examples, I think...]

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      • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
        Sure but you have a third person in your interpretation of Rev 13 where the text does not. Rev 13 only gives us the beast empire, and the false prophet as it's leader. The empire having a mouth doesn't make there a person speaking. That's a corporate mouth of the empire itself. Even Babylon which isn't a literal woman speaks various things. I'm just saying having a mouth and speaking doesn't have to be a person with a mouth. In Daniel the empire does not have a mouth, but the little horn does so things are reversed there. The image of the beast spoke too and it isn't a person and the FP spoke. All three spoke things, but not all are singular persons.
        I thought we had already dealt with this. I agreed with you that this doesnt "have to mean" a person. Sure symbolism is open to interpretation.

        But the little horn of Dan 7 has mouth and eyes like a human, at that point its referring to a specific boastful ruler who rules for 3.5 years and persecute the saints and comes to his end at the second coming.

        So when the Rev 13 beast is given a boastful mouth, and gains authority for 42 months, persecutes the saints and comes to his end at the second coming, it's 100 percent obvious to me we are referring to the same man connected to the first beast. The fact that the little horn is the final manifestation of the ten horned beast, and the beast given a mouth is also the final manifestation of the ten horned beast, just confirms it.

        You don't see it like that, even though I feel that I have expressed a strong argument. There's nothing more I can do, but your "it doesn't have to be a person with a mouth" isn't going to change my mind considering the strong overlaps between the beast given a boastful mouth, and the little horn with a boastful mouth.

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        • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

          Originally posted by randyk View Post
          Well, there are several points that I might question.
          1) Is the removal of restraint really an "event?" To say that a brahma bull is restrained by his pen until the door is released does not indicate the release of the door is an "event." On the other hand, to say the waters of a lake is restrained by a dam and the dam breaks does indicate the removal of restrain is an "event!" I really can't see that the removal of the restraint, or the removal of the Restrainer, is an "event" unless there is more there to confirm what this is.

          2) I'm not seeing that the Restrainer is doing the job of keeping "secret" the mystery of lawlessness. I think, rather, that Paul is inferring that this form of lawlessness is not yet fully revealed until the Antichrist actually appears. It's just that the spirit of Antichrist presently exists in a less-revealed way. The Restrainer is indeed inhibiting the actual appearance of Antichrist. But the removal of this restraint may be simply the evolution of what is not yet revealed to that which is actually revealed.

          I might theorize as follows. The Roman Empire and its imperial tradition has been predestined to be overcome and replaced by the Antichristian Empire. This Roman imperial tradition is evil in and of itself, and is what constitutes the "mystery of lawlessness." But as an agency of law and order it has restrained the actual appearance of Antichrist and his unbridled demonstration of opposition to God's People.

          We read, for example, that Antichrist destroys Rome, the "Harlot." This may be the "event" in which the restraint of Antichrist's appearance is removed. It may be the unveiling of who he is and the release of his ambition to result in acts of defiance against God.

          Rev 17.16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

          3) I don't see where the preaching of the Gospel to all nations is presented, biblically, as a necessary prelude to the last 3.5 years of the age. On the contrary, I believe Jesus said that the Gospel will be preached all the way to the end of the age. In Revelation we see an angel still preaching the Gospel to all the earth in the endtimes.

          4) I don't see any "removal of Satan" until the 2nd Coming, to prepare for the establishment of Christ's Millennial Kingdom. I don't see Satan being put "out of the way" to anticipate the coming of Antichrist, since it is Satan himself who inhabits Antichrist and energizes him and motivates him.
          1) The withholder/restrainer is an actual entity: "the ONE who now holds it back will continue to do so till HE is taken out of the way." The moment that entity is taken out the way, is an event.

          2) I see most of the chapter being a contrast of a mystery/secret lawlessness and secret identity, then a great revealing moment where the identity and lawlessness is exposed. The withholder being directly involved in this contrast.
          (For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed). Whichever translation you choose expresses this contrast of an entity involved in the evil secret, and when the entity is removed, there is a revealing/exposure of evil.

          3) you make a good point, but I believe Romans 11,:25 and Rev 12 point to some victory, followed by a final period. I cannot prove my case, I just feel this is what the Bible means by the "end". We are in an indefinite age, awaiting a precise 3.5 year age. So what goal does the church have to usher in this final period? The gospel mandate to preach to all nations.
          Romans 11:25 hints at this, after the fulness of the nations, Israel is more open to the gospel.
          Rev 12 points to this, after the victory of our testimony through the blood of the lamb, Satan loses his place in heaven. This makes one think, what massive victory of our testimony would end the age, 3.5 years before the second coming? This is a very curious yet great moment, and all heaven celebrates the victory of the church, 3.5 years before the end. The church is then persecuted for the final 3.5 years while Israel / the woman is kept safe.

          So I admit, that isn't a lot to go on, but I confidently see an indefinite period of the gospel to the nations, followed by 3.5 years of revival and protection of Israel.

          4) for some reason people picture an entity being removed from earth, but Satan is removed from his heavenly position of accusation. Rev 12 describes Satan been forcibly removed from heaven, and been cast to earth for 3.5 years in which Israel is protected and the church is persecuted. This final 3.5 year period obviously matching the same final 42 month period of persecution of Rev 13, and Daniel 7. This does not contradict, but confirms what you say about Satan's involvement with the antichrist on earth, during the final 3.5 years. He is no longer in the heavenlies, but is cast down to earth for 3.5 years of wrath during the reign of the antichrist.

          This event obviously occurs at the same time as the 42 month reign of the beast begins, who also comes to power with deceiving signs and wonders, just like the revealing of the man of sin. Both the fall of Satan (1260 days of wrath). And the revealing of the man of sin (42 months of authority) occur at the same time.

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          • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

            you know what is holding him back (something is preventing antichrist from being revealed) , so that He MAY BE REVEALED at the proper time. 7 For the SECRET power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back (holds the secret back from being revealed) will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. (Satan removed from his position of power and accusation in the heavenlies) And then the LAWLESS ONE WILL BE REVEALED, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. ( Satan is cast to earth in great wrath, and he gives a human power and authority through deceiving signs and wonders)

            It just so happens that Satan is removed from heaven and brings his wrath to earth for 1260 days of persecution, at the same moment that antichrist comes to power for 42 months of persecution. Satan is removed at the same time antichrist is revealed.

            Comment


            • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
              Satan is removed at the same time antichrist is revealed.
              I assume you mean "revealed" as a first appearance? It can mean something else as well.

              What happens first? The falling away or the man of sin appearing for the first time?
              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

              Comment


              • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                I assume you mean "revealed" as a first appearance? It can mean something else as well.

                What happens first? The falling away or the man of sin appearing for the first time?
                2 Thess 2 is 100% clear what the revealing is:
                he sets himself up in Godís temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

                The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie

                Or am I somehow being too literal, to regard the revealing of the man of sin, when this man sets himself up in God's temple proclaiming himself God, with all sorts of signs and wonders? Because that is what I read the revealing is, and that is how I believe it will unfold.

                Comment


                • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                  Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                  2 Thess 2 is 100% clear what the revealing is:
                  he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

                  The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie

                  Or am I somehow being too literal, to regard the revealing of the man of sin, when this man sets himself up in God's temple proclaiming himself God, with all sorts of signs and wonders? Because that is what I read the revealing is, and that is how I believe it will unfold.
                  Let's start with this:

                  What happens first? The falling away or the man of sin appearing for the first time?
                  James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                  Comment


                  • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                    Let's start with this:

                    What happens first? The falling away or the man of sin appearing for the first time?
                    Donít let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

                    I see the widespread acceptance of the antichrist as God, as the ultimate rebellion, so I would say those 2 events occur at the same time.

                    Comment


                    • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                      Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

                      I see the widespread acceptance of the antichrist as God, as the ultimate rebellion, so I would say those 2 events occur at the same time.
                      I see the man of sin being revealed as not a first appearance but Christ unmasking and revealing that he was a false God, a false Christ. So the falling away is when he first appears and lies about who he is and many fall away to accept him, then the second part of what happens when Christ returns and "reveals" the man of sin as being the man of sin and not a Messiah.

                      So, the mention of the falling away is the start of the Gt, and then speaking of the revealing of the man of sin is actually the end of the Gt....in one sentence Paul covers the who thing, explaining what must happen before the return of Christ happens. In this I see Paul listing the two events as very chronologically ordered.

                      More I have on this:

                      Actually the revealing is not about his first appearance but to his being uncovered, exposed and revealed as being the man of sin because before that he claimed to be God. Naturally his first appearance came before the Apostasy because he causes it. He is revealed/uncovered by Christ when he returns and proves the other was a false God.


                      2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                      2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
                      2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
                      2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
                      2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
                      2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

                      The "revealing" is tied directly to the return of Christ.

                      G601
                      apokaluptoĮ
                      Thayer Definition:
                      1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
                      1a) disclose, make bare
                      2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
                      Part of Speech: verb
                      A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G2572
                      Citing in TDNT: 3:563, 405

                      The man of sin is the Antichrist and will claim to be God as Paul writes. That is a lie and it is a veil which he covers himself with like a mask. To reveal him as the fraud he is is to unveil, and uncover and "disclose what before was unknown"

                      And that is specifically that he was not God but a fake, the man of sin merely lying about being God. Only the return of Christ makes that clear.



                      Matthew Henry

                      II. A revelation of that man of sin, that is (2Th_2:3), antichrist would take his rise from this general apostasy. The apostle afterwards speaks of the revelation of that wicked one (2Th_2:8), intimating the discovery which should be made of his wickedness, in order to his ruin
                      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                      Donít let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

                      I see the widespread acceptance of the antichrist as God, as the ultimate rebellion, so I would say those 2 events occur at the same time.
                      I see the man of sin being revealed as not a first appearance but Christ unmasking and revealing that he was a false God, a false Christ. So the falling away is when he first appears and lies about who he is and many fall away to accept him, then the second part of what happens when Christ returns and "reveals" the man of sin as being the man of sin and not a Messiah.

                      So, the mention of the falling away is the start of the Gt, and then speaking of the revealing of the man of sin is actually the end of the Gt....in one sentence Paul covers the who thing, explaining what must happen before the return of Christ happens. In this I see Paul listing the two events as very chronologically ordered.

                      More I have on this:

                      Actually the revealing is not about his first appearance but to his being uncovered, exposed and revealed as being the man of sin because before that he claimed to be God. Naturally his first appearance came before the Apostasy because he causes it. He is revealed/uncovered by Christ when he returns and proves the other was a false God.


                      2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                      2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
                      2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
                      2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
                      2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
                      2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

                      The "revealing" is tied directly to the return of Christ.

                      G601
                      apokaluptoĮ
                      Thayer Definition:
                      1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
                      1a) disclose, make bare
                      2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
                      Part of Speech: verb
                      A Related Word by Thayerís/Strongís Number: from G575 and G2572
                      Citing in TDNT: 3:563, 405

                      The man of sin is the Antichrist and will claim to be God as Paul writes. That is a lie and it is a veil which he covers himself with like a mask. To reveal him as the fraud he is is to unveil, and uncover and "disclose what before was unknown"

                      And that is specifically that he was not God but a fake, the man of sin merely lying about being God. Only the return of Christ makes that clear.



                      Matthew Henry

                      II. A revelation of that man of sin, that is (2Th_2:3), antichrist would take his rise from this general apostasy. The apostle afterwards speaks of the revelation of that wicked one (2Th_2:8), intimating the discovery which should be made of his wickedness, in order to his ruin
                      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                      Comment


                      • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                        I see the man of sin being revealed as not a first appearance but Christ unmasking and revealing that he was a false God, a false Christ. So the falling away is when he first appears and lies about who he is and many fall away to accept him, then the second part of what happens when Christ returns and "reveals" the man of sin as being the man of sin and not a Messiah.
                        I see the boastfulness and the deceiving signs as starting his reign, not ending his reign. Dan 7, Dan 11, Rev 13 and 2 Thess 2 point to this. So I can't agree with you, the revealing is a great deceiving event at the start of the antichrists reign.

                        Comment


                        • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                          I see the boastfulness and the deceiving signs as starting his reign, not ending his reign. Dan 7, Dan 11, Rev 13 and 2 Thess 2 point to this.
                          Greeat but I did not say otherwise. I am speaking only of the revealing of the man of sin as being a revealing of who he actually is and exposing him which happens when Christ returns...not any earlier events where the lie about who he is is unknown.
                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                          Comment


                          • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                            Greeat but I did not say otherwise. I am speaking only of the revealing of the man of sin as being a revealing of who he actually is and exposing him which happens when Christ returns...not any earlier events where the lie about who he is is unknown.
                            This is where I disagree, 2 Thess 2 has a theme of the revealing of the antichrist. And it describes this revealing as the moment of boastfulness at the temple, when he declares himself God, and the deceiving signs. This is how 2 Thess 2 describes the revealing, if one takes the face value uncomplicated reading of the text.

                            If you are chatting to people, everyone is following your meaning. Then comes along someone who joins in the chat, and keeps pointing out possible ambiguities and alternative interpretations to your words. This is frustrating, why not just accept the face value meaning?

                            Comment


                            • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                              Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                              .not any earlier events where the lie about who he is is unknown.
                              In that case this for sure can't involve a literal temple in Jerusalem where someone sits proclaiming to be God. Every single person that has read 2 Thess 2 would know who it is. Yet we are told God will send strong delusion, where one will then believe a lie. How could anyone that' read 2 Thess 2, assuming 2 Thess 2:4 is meaning in the literal sense, fall for the lie? One might argue that it's only meaning the already unsaved, they will believe the lie. But why though? If they are already unsaved they are already lost to begin with. So we have to keep in mind that there is a falling away. One can't fall away from something they were never a part of, therefore the main targets of the lie are the ones who fall away. This would be meaning professed Christians, which would mean they are overly familiar with 2 Thess 2. It therefore doesn't make sense 2 Thess 2:4 is meaning in a literal sense, if the idea is to send strong delusion where one will believe a lie.

                              Comment


                              • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                                Speaking of a temple, I found the following commentary, though there is a lot in the commentary I don't exactly agree with, yet I thought the following that I have underlined makes an excellent point, regardless.


                                The Meaning of the Measured Temple

                                Itís best to understand this temple of Revelation 11 as symbolic, rather than as an actual rebuilt temple in Jerusalem (even though itís possible that a new temple will exist at that time). One reason for this is that it doesnít make much sense that hostile Gentile forces will be able to occupy the outer courtyard of the literal temple, and yet be unable to enter its inner courtyard. Also, we should remember that the temple in Johnís vision corresponds to the temple in Ezekielís vision, and Ezekielís temple is clearly symbolic (as discussed below).

                                https://revelationlogic.com/commentary/chapter-11/

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