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RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

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  • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
    This is where I disagree, 2 Thess 2 has a theme of the revealing of the antichrist. And it describes this revealing as the moment of boastfulness at the temple, when he declares himself God, and the deceiving signs. This is how 2 Thess 2 describes the revealing, if one takes the face value uncomplicated reading of the text.

    If you are chatting to people, everyone is following your meaning. Then comes along someone who joins in the chat, and keeps pointing out possible ambiguities and alternative interpretations to your words. This is frustrating, why not just accept the face value meaning?
    It's only that way if one sees it that way. I see it differently and not just to be different than the majority. Nothing in the text requires the revealing to be his first appearance. It can be his exposure as a false god by Christ which makes sense because the second coming does just that.

    So, two interpretations in the passage:

    1. The revealing of the man of sin is his first appearance, fooling people because they do not know he lies about who he is.
    2. The revealing is long after the first appearance and falling away and is what happens when Christ reveals that the Antichrist was actually the man of sin not a God or Messiah.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

    Comment


    • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

      Originally posted by divaD View Post
      It therefore doesn't make sense 2 Thess 2:4 is meaning in a literal sense, if the idea is to send strong delusion where one will believe a lie.
      Christians are the temple of God and a false god being in that temple equals the Apostasy.
      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

      Comment


      • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
        It's only that way if one sees it that way. I see it differently and not just to be different than the majority. Nothing in the text requires the revealing to be his first appearance. It can be his exposure as a false god by Christ which makes sense because the second coming does just that.

        So, two interpretations in the passage:

        1. The revealing of the man of sin is his first appearance, fooling people because they do not know he lies about who he is.
        2. The revealing is long after the first appearance and falling away and is what happens when Christ reveals that the Antichrist was actually the man of sin not a God or Messiah.
        that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.


        You may disagree that v4 relates to v3. I guess that's possible, but certainly not the intended meaning of the text. v3 mentions the revealing, in this context v4 describes the revealing in more detail, the description matching the beginning of his reign.

        The revealing to the church, is the deception to the unsaved. The revealing/exposure of the antichrist, is the same moment as the great deception of the world.

        Comment


        • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post

          You may disagree that v4 relates to v3. I guess that's possible, but certainly not the intended meaning of the text.
          As you see it. The meaning of the text is interpreted by us all. I see verse 4 explaining the falling away and not related to the revealing.


          Similar issue here.


          2Th 2:8* And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:*

          You may disagree that that Wicked being revealed is related to being consumed and destroyed by Christ but I see this as all being the same events.
          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

          Comment


          • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

            Originally posted by divaD View Post
            Speaking of a temple, I found the following commentary, though there is a lot in the commentary I don't exactly agree with, yet I thought the following that I have underlined makes an excellent point, regardless.


            The Meaning of the Measured Temple

            It’s best to understand this temple of Revelation 11 as symbolic, rather than as an actual rebuilt temple in Jerusalem (even though it’s possible that a new temple will exist at that time). One reason for this is that it doesn’t make much sense that hostile Gentile forces will be able to occupy the outer courtyard of the literal temple, and yet be unable to enter its inner courtyard. Also, we should remember that the temple in John’s vision corresponds to the temple in Ezekiel’s vision, and Ezekiel’s temple is clearly symbolic (as discussed below).

            https://revelationlogic.com/commentary/chapter-11/
            What seems an illogical inconsistency to the writer, I feel is a perfectly logical compromise in an increasingly compromising liberal New Age world.

            Some think that the Islamic Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque are already in the Gentile court. So in order to prevent a world war, and in the current climate of compromise, it's completely likely that Jews will allow the Gentiles to keep their religious buildings on the outer court. Any attempt at a temple rebuilding project will logically avoid direct destruction of the second most holy site of Islam. On the assumption that Jews take more full control over the temple mount before any temple rebuilding, it may be a relief to Islam to know their area will be left well alone. Under that situation I dont see them demanding to enter the holy of holies, just as Jews will never demand to enter the AL Aqsa Mosque.

            So what doesn't make sense in your quote, actually makes perfect sense in a world where Israel is even more dominant in the region. I used to feel a rebuilt temple isn't necessarily predicted before the Messianic Age, but I now do acknowledge a few verses point to it.

            Comment


            • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

              Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
              As you see it. The meaning of the text is interpreted by us all. I see verse 4 explaining the falling away and not related to the revealing.


              Similar issue here.


              2Th 2:8* And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:*

              You may disagree that that Wicked being revealed is related to being consumed and destroyed by Christ but I see this as all being the same events.
              This was actually a good comparison you made, I appreciate the logical comeback, even though I completely disagree with your position.

              It is admittedly a little bewildering to me how you cannot see the coming to power in Jerusalem, the man of sin declaring himself as God and being worshipped by the world, amid great deceiving signs and wonders, as the revealing often referred to in the same chapter.

              Comment


              • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                It is admittedly a little bewildering to me how you cannot see the coming to power in Jerusalem, the man of sin declaring himself as God and being worshipped by the world, amid great deceiving signs and wonders, as the revealing often referred to in the same chapter.

                Because the same chapter says things that relate to his lies being "revealed" and him being exposed as the fake he is...the Greek word can mean either a first appearance or an unmasking type of revealing.

                The man of sin "revealed":

                1. The man of sin claiming to be God.
                2. The man of sin being exposed as not being God.
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                  The following are some thoughts I just strung together, so a bit rough at this point, rather than crystal clear. But even so, maybe some will be able to make sense of some of this, regardless, and hopefully agree with at least some of it. But if not, oh well, it's not like it will be the first time that has ever happened.

                  One thing I notice is, a lot of verses in 2 Thess 2 begin with an 'And'. Where to me that shows a connection to something previously mentioned. Such as.



                  2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
                  8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

                  Verse 8 says...And then shall that Wicked be revealed. Then it goes on to say...whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

                  The first thing we have to keep in mind is verse 3.

                  2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition


                  for that day shall not come. What day? How can it not be the day of Christ mentioned in verse 2? In verse 2 how can the day of Christ not be meaning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, in verse 1? How can this coming in verse 1 not be meaning this same coming in verse 8?

                  According to verse 3, 2 things have to happen first, before that day can even come....there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

                  This tells me, the fact the falling away precedes that day coming, then so must the revealing of that man of sin, the son of perdition, precede that day coming.

                  And since verse 8 begins with an 'And', that tends to tell me when that Wicked is revealed, it is because of this in verse 7....until he be taken out of the way. But that can't be meaning the removal of something or someone, because verse 8 doesn't stop at this coming, it goes on to tell us the following, which is why
                  the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

                  2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
                  10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
                  11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
                  12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


                  While it's on my mind, I have a theory about some of the meaning in verse 7.

                  2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

                  If we compare to Dan 8, we see the following.

                  Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

                  until he be taken out of the way....meaning the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full...the latter meaning the falling away seen in 2 Thess 2:3.

                  Keeping in mind that 'taken' in the Greek can mean enters the world's stage, so to speak. But since some refuse to see that some of Dan 8 involves endtimes, what I'm trying to show a connection to here, will be meaningless to them.

                  In Daniel 8:23...when the transgressors are come to the full...this appears to already be the case, but not after a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up, but before he shall. That seems to be the same chronology in 2 Thess 2:3. The falling away happens first, and because of the falling away, God sends them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, that connecting with 2 Thess 2:4, for one, where that involves the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.

                  To me it makes better sense, that because they have already fallen away, God then sends them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. And not the other way around instead, where, because of the strong delusion, it causes them to fall away. And speaking of verses beginning with an 'And', verse 10 and 11 begin with an 'And' in 2 Thess 2. Which then shows a connection in verse 10 with that of this in verse 9...the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.

                  Which then shows a connection in verse 11 with that of this in verse 10...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And because they didn't, it results in verse 12...That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Which then ultimately results in 2 Thessalonians 2:7. So because they did not believe the truth, God causes them to believe a lie, which basically results in them, instead of not worshiping the beast, and it's image, worshiping the beast, and it's image. thus the strong delusion God sends them, the lie they believe.

                  Speaking of that verse, take note of the following...whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth.

                  Now compare that to this in Rev 19.

                  Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

                  How can what I have underlined in Revelation 19:21 not equal what I have underlined in 2 Thessalonians 2:7? How can that Wicked in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 not be meaning these? Take note of what Wicked means according to Strong's.

                  anomos
                  an'-om-os
                  from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and nomoV - nomos 3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:--without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

                  One of the defs is transgressor, keeping in mind my point I made concerning Daniel 8:23...when the transgressors are come to the full.

                  But since some are still looking for literal temples where it involves someone literally sitting in it, in order to fulfill these things, I don't expect them to be on the same page with anything I submitted.

                  Comment


                  • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                    Originally posted by divaD View Post
                    The following are some thoughts I just strung together, so a bit rough at this point, rather than crystal clear. But even so, maybe some will be able to make sense of some of this, regardless, and hopefully agree with at least some of it. But if not, oh well, it's not like it will be the first time that has ever happened.

                    One thing I notice is, a lot of verses in 2 Thess 2 begin with an 'And'. Where to me that shows a connection to something previously mentioned. Such as.



                    2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
                    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

                    Verse 8 says...And then shall that Wicked be revealed. Then it goes on to say...whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

                    The first thing we have to keep in mind is verse 3.

                    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition


                    for that day shall not come. What day? How can it not be the day of Christ mentioned in verse 2? In verse 2 how can the day of Christ not be meaning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, in verse 1? How can this coming in verse 1 not be meaning this same coming in verse 8?

                    According to verse 3, 2 things have to happen first, before that day can even come....there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

                    This tells me, the fact the falling away precedes that day coming, then so must the revealing of that man of sin, the son of perdition, precede that day coming.

                    And since verse 8 begins with an 'And', that tends to tell me when that Wicked is revealed, it is because of this in verse 7....until he be taken out of the way. But that can't be meaning the removal of something or someone, because verse 8 doesn't stop at this coming, it goes on to tell us the following, which is why
                    the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

                    2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
                    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
                    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
                    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


                    While it's on my mind, I have a theory about some of the meaning in verse 7.

                    2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

                    If we compare to Dan 8, we see the following.

                    Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

                    until he be taken out of the way....meaning the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full...the latter meaning the falling away seen in 2 Thess 2:3.

                    Keeping in mind that 'taken' in the Greek can mean enters the world's stage, so to speak. But since some refuse to see that some of Dan 8 involves endtimes, what I'm trying to show a connection to here, will be meaningless to them.

                    In Daniel 8:23...when the transgressors are come to the full...this appears to already be the case, but not after a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up, but before he shall. That seems to be the same chronology in 2 Thess 2:3. The falling away happens first, and because of the falling away, God sends them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, that connecting with 2 Thess 2:4, for one, where that involves the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.

                    To me it makes better sense, that because they have already fallen away, God then sends them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. And not the other way around instead, where, because of the strong delusion, it causes them to fall away. And speaking of verses beginning with an 'And', verse 10 and 11 begin with an 'And' in 2 Thess 2. Which then shows a connection in verse 10 with that of this in verse 9...the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.

                    Which then shows a connection in verse 11 with that of this in verse 10...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And because they didn't, it results in verse 12...That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Which then ultimately results in 2 Thessalonians 2:7. So because they did not believe the truth, God causes them to believe a lie, which basically results in them, instead of not worshiping the beast, and it's image, worshiping the beast, and it's image. thus the strong delusion God sends them, the lie they believe.

                    Speaking of that verse, take note of the following...whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth.

                    Now compare that to this in Rev 19.

                    Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

                    How can what I have underlined in Revelation 19:21 not equal what I have underlined in 2 Thessalonians 2:7? How can that Wicked in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 not be meaning these? Take note of what Wicked means according to Strong's.

                    anomos
                    an'-om-os
                    from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and nomoV - nomos 3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:--without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

                    One of the defs is transgressor, keeping in mind my point I made concerning Daniel 8:23...when the transgressors are come to the full.

                    But since some are still looking for literal temples where it involves someone literally sitting in it, in order to fulfill these things, I don't expect them to be on the same page with anything I submitted.
                    Paul beseeched (asked/begged eagerly, anxiously, urgently) the Thessalonians to do something. He beseeched them by the coming of the Lord and by their gathering together (verse 1). The Lord had already come to Paul and the Thessalonians; they were already gathered together unto the Lord.

                    With respect to what was Paul eagerly/anxiously urging the Thessalonians to know? It was with respect to the Wicked who must fall away first, who must be revealed as the man of sin and who must be destroyed by the Christ to whom they gathered.

                    These things happen to the Wicked when Christ shows up and when His brethren are gathered unto Him.

                    For purposes of the wicked man falling away, being revealed as the man of sin unto being destroyed, Paul urged the Thessalonians to:
                    1. not to be shaken in mind as the day of Christ was already at hand
                    2. not to be troubled by spirit or by word as the day of Christ was already at hand
                    3. not by any letter from him (Paul) and others as the day of Christ was already at hand


                    Also, see post #87.
                    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

                    Comment


                    • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                      Originally posted by Glorious View Post
                      The Lord had already come to Paul and the Thessalonians; they were already gathered together unto the Lord.
                      In what way was that already true? This is the first time I was even aware that anyone interpreted verse 1 in that manner.

                      Comment


                      • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                        Originally posted by divaD View Post
                        In what way was that already true? This is the first time I was even aware that anyone interpreted verse 1 in that manner.
                        Even when two or three are gathered in His name, the Lord is there with them.

                        How can He be with them if not that He had come to them?

                        Blame translators for adding the words "that day shall not come" to the scripture in 2 Thess 2.
                        Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

                        Comment


                        • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                          Originally posted by Glorious View Post
                          Even when two or three are gathered in His name, the Lord is there with them.

                          How can He be with them if not that He had come to them?

                          Blame translators for adding the words "that day shall not come" to the scripture in 2 Thess 2.
                          2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
                          2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

                          Your interpretation of verse 1 completely ignores verse 2. If verse 1 means what you take it to mean, why would anybody be soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, etc, about that? You apparently must think verse 2 is not connected to verse 1, but if it actually is though, it renders your interpretation of verse 1 nonsensical in that case.

                          Comment


                          • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                            Originally posted by divaD View Post
                            2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
                            2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

                            Your interpretation of verse 1 completely ignores verse 2. If verse 1 means what you take it to mean, why would anybody be soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, etc, about that? You apparently must think verse 2 is not connected to verse 1, but if it actually is though, it renders your interpretation of verse 1 nonsensical in that case.
                            You seem to be incapable of understanding what I wrote. That is how come you think/analyze in your mind things that have no bearing to my post. That is what is nonsensical.

                            It is not a play thing to sit back, relax and watch when the wicked man falls away, is being revealed as the man of sin and finally destroyed.

                            Paul urged the Thessalonians, by reasons of the coming of the Lord and by their gathering together, to:
                            1. not to be shaken in mind
                            2. not to be troubled by spirit or by word
                            3. not by any letter from him (Paul) and others.
                            Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

                            Comment


                            • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                              Originally posted by Glorious View Post
                              Even when two or three are gathered in His name, the Lord is there with them.

                              How can He be with them if not that He had come to them?

                              Blame translators for adding the words "that day shall not come" to the scripture in 2 Thess 2.
                              Let's suppose verse 1 is not even in that chapter, IOW, verse 2 is verse 1 of that chapter, like such.

                              2 Thessalonians 2:1 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
                              2 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


                              Even though verse 1 would still be explaining what day is meant in verse 2, that is beside the point. What isn't beside the point, who begins a new conversation in that manner, where one begins a conversation with 'That' without something previously mentioned explaining the reason for using "that' at the beginning of a new statement? Actually though, there should be a comma after verse 1, and there is in the KJV, thus making verse 2 not a new sentence, or a different context, but part of the same context before that last comma in verse 1.

                              So if we look at it like it's actually written, the "that' at the beginning of verse 2 makes perfect sense.

                              Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. *Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

                              Comment


                              • Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

                                Originally posted by Glorious View Post
                                You seem to be incapable of understanding what I wrote. That is how come you think/analyze in your mind things that have no bearing to my post. That is what is nonsensical.

                                It is not a play thing to sit back, relax and watch when the wicked man falls away, is being revealed as the man of sin and finally destroyed.

                                Paul urged the Thessalonians, by reasons of the coming of the Lord and by their gathering together, to:
                                1. not to be shaken in mind
                                2. not to be troubled by spirit or by word
                                3. not by any letter from him (Paul) and others.
                                Maybe the reason I'm incapable of not understanding what you wrote is not my fault, but your fault for presenting something that is rendering verse 1 nonsensical. Verse 1 is meaning the 2nd coming, that's all there is to it. But you instead say that coming has already occurred, thus that gathering unto Him has already occurred. You're trying to apply something to verse 1 that is not even supported by the context.

                                Comment

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