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RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

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  • journeyman
    replied
    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Iniquity isn't a mystery to believers. We know the devil is behind it The "man of sin" is known by his departing from the truth and his revealing to unbelievers will occur when the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way", when salvation is no longer offered, when all who will be saved are saved, when the
    conquering is done, when the reign of Christ is over.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheDivineWatermark
    replied
    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    I'll just leave the following three links to recent posts I've made (on this Subject), in a different thread (the "called to" thread):

    Kenneth S Wuest -

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...67#post3560067


    Quote by Wm Kelly on the Heb9:8-9 passage -

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...69#post3560069


    Quote by Thomas Ice on the "Translation History" -

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...37#post3560037



    [that's if I haven't mixed up the headings I've put here, to their proper LINKS, lol]



    .

    Leave a comment:


  • TheDivineWatermark
    replied
    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    [the word in Hebrews 9:8-9 ^ … which in 8 of its 9x is used in the NEGATIVE SENSE, but not in its 9th!]

    Leave a comment:


  • TheDivineWatermark
    replied
    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Then, for "G4714 stasis / stasin"

    [per BibleHub]

    stasis: standing, place, dissension
    Original Word: στάσις, εως, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: stasis
    Phonetic Spelling: (stas'-is)
    Definition: a rebel, revolutionist
    Usage: an insurrection, dissension; originally: standing, position, place.


    [end quoting; bold mine]

    oops, that's way bigger than I expected... sry! lol

    Leave a comment:


  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    No, I'm quoting from it (1871, pg 93)... when I wrote:

    --listed under "apostasia"... "later form for apostasis"

    _______

    So "apo stasis"... is the two words "away from" and "standing [a standing]" (i.e. "a standing... away from"). That's it.
    The lexicon still says you are wrong about what apostasia means in Thess 2:3.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheDivineWatermark
    replied
    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    So, Liddell and Scott says you are wrong about the meaning of apostasia in that verse.
    No, I'm quoting from it (1871, pg 93)... when I wrote:

    --listed under "apostasia"... "later form for apostasis"

    _______

    So "apo stasis"... is the two words "away from" and "standing [a standing]" (i.e. "a standing... away from"). That's it.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheDivineWatermark
    replied
    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    EDIT: sry, last post should read "G2348" (not G2438)

    Leave a comment:


  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post

    "Liddell and Scott, in their Greek-English Lexicon (1871; page 93), has listed under "apostasia"... "later form for apostasis"
    This is known as root fallacy. To understand the meaning of apostasia you do not go to a root word and then go by what it means to redefine apostasia. The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia as "A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3. "

    http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/...15.LSJ.1873894


    And specifically says this is the meaning of Th.2.3.

    2Th 2:3* Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (A defection, revolt, esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    So, Liddell and Scott says you are wrong about the meaning of apostasia in that verse.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheDivineWatermark
    replied
    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    The reader could do the SAME "exercise" (as posted above) with regard to the Greek word "G2438 [DEAD]" used NINE TIMES.

    In the first 8x of its 9 verses, it means "DEAD" (as in "dead as a doornail," "six feet under" "kind" of DEAD); but should we INSIST that in the NINTH one, of the "woman" being referred to there, that we should prepare her casket, and prep for attending her funeral and graveside service?? Or should we take note of the surrounding CONTEXT (i.e. accompanying / clarifying / qualifying words and clues) in order to ascertain that we DO NOT need to "prepare for her BURIAL" in such a way??

    The reader could do the SAME "exercise" (as posted above) with regard to the Greek word "G2438 [DEAD]" used NINE TIMES.

    In the first 8x of its 9 verses, it means "DEAD" (as in "dead as a doornail," "six feet under" "kind" of DEAD); but should we INSIST that in the NINTH one, of the "woman" being referred to there, that we should prepare her casket, and prep for attending her funeral and graveside service?? Or should we take note of the surrounding CONTEXT (i.e. accompanying / clarifying / qualifying words and clues) in order to ascertain that we DO NOT need to "prepare for her BURIAL" in such a way??

    Leave a comment:


  • TheDivineWatermark
    replied
    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The word only means to depart somehow from the beliefs or faith one has. It's a religious departing, not a physical departing. It's used twice in scripture and that's what it means.

    G646
    ἀποστασία
    apostasia
    ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
    Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
    Total KJV occurrences: 2
    Not correct.

    You are limited in your understanding, by viewing only a "limited" source, and looking no further (like at the Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon source I provided):

    "Liddell and Scott, in their Greek-English Lexicon (1871; page 93), has listed under "apostasia"... "later form for apostasis"

    --"apo stasis" is from "apo - away from" and "stasis [/stasin] - a standing"... thus, "a standing away from [from a previous standing]"

    (i.e. a "departure"...
    from WHATEVER the CONTEXT indicates, as to just "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is meant, in any given passage--the BASIC MEANING of the word is simply "DEPARTURE" [without injecting "WHAT KIND," which is determined by whatever context wherein it's found--whether "FROM MOSES" or "from a governmental/law-type situation" or "of a FEVER" or "[boat] FROM A DOCK" (these latter ones being a spatial/geographical departure!)])


    --then look at how "stasis/stasin [G4714]" (from the above point) is used in 8 of its 9 times (that is, in a NEGATIVE sense--see: https://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/9-8.htm and if you hover your cursor over the G4714 in the left-hand column, the "pop-up definition" there ONLY PROVIDES the "NEGATIVE SENSE" definition of this [related] word, but the word is NOT in the "NEGATIVE SENSE" in this Heb9:8-9 CONTEXT!!!); and

    it would NOT BE CORRECT to therefore conclude that its 9th time used [the one found in Heb9:8-9 (*see link below for list)] is also to be understood in this NEGATIVE sense merely because it is used in a NEGATIVE sense in ALL OTHER INSTANCES!

    To INSIST on such a thing ^ would just be to insist on being "willfully ignorant".



    *-- see ALL of the list of its NINE times here: https://biblehub.com/greek/4714.htm [right-hand column--note how the LAST reference is NOT used in the SAME *NEGATIVE* SENSE as are ALL THE OTHERS!]


    You yourself may not care to scrutinize what I've put above [at these two links], but the readers of this thread many wish to, in order "to see whether these things are so"

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The word only means to depart somehow from the beliefs or faith one has. It's a religious departing, not a physical departing. It's used twice in scripture and that's what it means.

    G646
    ἀποστασία
    apostasia
    ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
    Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
    Total KJV occurrences: 2
    Not correct.

    You are limited in your understanding, by viewing only a "limited" source, and looking no further (like at the Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon source I provided):

    "Liddell and Scott, in their Greek-English Lexicon (1871; page 93), has listed under "apostasia"... "later form for apostasis"

    --"apo stasis" is from "apo - away from" and "stasis [/stasin] - a standing"... thus, "a standing away from [from a previous standing]"

    (i.e. a "departure"...
    from WHATEVER the CONTEXT indicates, as to just "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is meant, in any given passage--the BASIC MEANING of the word is simply "DEPARTURE" [without injecting "WHAT KIND," which is determined by whatever context wherein it's found--whether "FROM MOSES" or "from a governmental/law-type situation" or "of a FEVER" or "[boat] FROM A DOCK" (these latter ones being a spatial/geographical departure!)])


    --then look at how "stasis/stasin [G4714]" (from the above point) is used in 8 of its 9 times (that is, in a NEGATIVE sense--see: https://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/9-8.htm and if you hover your cursor over the G4714 in the left-hand column, the "pop-up definition" there ONLY PROVIDES the "NEGATIVE SENSE" definition of this [related] word, but the word is NOT in the "NEGATIVE SENSE" in this Heb9:8-9 CONTEXT!!!); and

    it would NOT BE CORRECT to therefore conclude that its 9th time used [the one found in Heb9:8-9 (*see link below for list)] is also to be understood in this NEGATIVE sense merely because it is used in a NEGATIVE sense in ALL OTHER INSTANCES!

    To INSIST on such a thing ^ would just be to insist on being "willfully ignorant".



    *-- see ALL of the list of its NINE times here: https://biblehub.com/greek/4714.htm [right-hand column--note how the LAST reference is NOT used in the SAME *NEGATIVE* SENSE as are ALL THE OTHERS!]


    You yourself may not care to scrutinize what I've put above [at these two links], but the readers of this thread many wish to, in order "to see whether these things are so"

    Leave a comment:


  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    First of all (regarding your latter point), I disagree... because Paul uses VARIOUS terms to speak of the event [we call] our Rapture...
    The word only means to depart somehow from the beliefs or faith one has. It's a religious departing, not a physical departing. It's used twice in scripture and that's what it means.

    G646
    ἀποστασία
    apostasia
    ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
    Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
    Total KJV occurrences: 2

    Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    First of all (regarding your latter point), I disagree... because Paul uses VARIOUS terms to speak of the event [we call] our Rapture...
    The word only means to depart somehow from the beliefs or faith one has. It's a religious departing, not a physical departing. It's used twice in scripture and that's what it means.

    G646
    ἀποστασία
    apostasia
    ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
    Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
    Total KJV occurrences: 2

    Leave a comment:


  • TheDivineWatermark
    replied
    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    [continued]


    [quoting TDW/myself ]

    I believe the "24 elders" [sitting on "thrones" and wearing "CROWNS/stephanos of gold"] (shown IN HEAVEN before the opening of the FIRST SEAL) represent "the Church which is His body," and the manuscript evidence shows that Rev5:9 says "US," whereas v.10 has a word that [you could say] in the Grk refers to "THEY/THEM" [though not actually in the Grk, but in the form of another word there]... So that this section is referring to a kind of "antiphonal singing" with more voices being added even further on in the passage. Paul said he would be given "a crown" "IN THAT DAY," for example... [this, per context, being "the Day of Christ / the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ" (not "the DOTL" which unfolds upon THE EARTH)]



    IOW, some translators endeavored to make the two verses in Rev5 [vv.9 and 10] MATCH (to say the same thing as each other), whereas they do not (i.e. it says [B]"US"[/B[ in verse 9 where the 24 elders are saying this, but NOT v.10! [which then is, in the "antiphonal singing" model, the 4 living creatures saying it OF the 24 elders, who I believe represent "the Church which is His body"])



    [and] Re: verse 9, 23 out of the 24 manuscripts have "US" in v.9; 1 manuscript out of the 24 has no pronoun and leaves it blank (that is, for v.9).


    Then, the TR changes v.10 to make it "agree" with v.9 ("US"), whereas all other translations have "they/them" in v.10.


    _______


    [quoting Wm Kelly on 1Chron25 (source: BibleHub under "Commentary"), in view of what I put in another post (and in short version, above) about Hebrews 9:8-9 and the "the tabernacle yet having A STANDING, which is a parable for the time present" and the "STASIN/STASIS" word used there (related to the "a standing away [from a previous standing]"--"apo stasis / apo stasia")]



    "In 1 Chronicles 25 we have the service of song. "Moreover, David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals." It is called "prophesying" because it so directly brought in God, which is the emphatic meaning of prophesying. "And the number of the workmen according to their service was" - so and so. There were twenty-four courses of the singers. Now, this was another remarkable change. In the tabernacle, song was not the characteristic feature, but sacrifice; but in the temple in the day of glory, the song of triumph is the new and suitable feature."


    --William Kelly, 1 Chronicles 25 [see especially verse 7]


    [note: v.1 "with harps [see Rev5], with psalteries ['earthen vessels'], and with cymbals"...hmmm...]

    [see again my previous excerpts, in the post above this one ]

    Leave a comment:


  • TheDivineWatermark
    replied
    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That is misrepresenting what apostasia means. It does not mean to physically depart. It is departing from what you believe in a religious sense. Harpazo and apostasia means two very different things but a false harpazo will be part of why the apostasia happens.
    First of all (regarding your latter point), I disagree... because Paul uses VARIOUS terms to speak of the event [we call] our Rapture... and in these two epistles he refers to it something like TEN TIMES (again, using a VARIETY of terms and phrases to speak of it).

    Next (regarding your first point at top of your quote above), I disagree again... and my explanation for my disagreement [just a small smattering of reasons] will have to come in two posts (it's too big for one post, I think)… though I've mentioned these [the following] already a number of times throughout several of these threads on this topic.

    [my reasons follow, in two posts--these are only a SMALL PORTION, coz I've already made recent posts giving further points THERE]


    646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure [...]; apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

    [or, lit. "a standing away [from a previous standing]" -- apo stasia (see also apo stasis)]


    Liddell and Scott, in their Greek-English Lexicon (1871; page 93), has listed under "apostasia: ... "later form for apostasis; and under "apostasis,"... "2. departure or removal from."


    [see my Post which was about the RELATED word used in Hebrews 9:8-9, and what those verses are about where they say, "the first tabernacle [the one 'in the wilderness' per the DESCRIPTION in vv.3-4] yet having A STANDING [G4714 - stasin / stasis], which is a parable for the present time" [note in that Post, what I've said about this... ALSO take note of how ALL OTHER references of THIS word are translated to mean a NEGATIVE thing, EXCEPT HERE in this ONE instance! (and recall how this Greek word is RELATED to the word under discussion!)]

    _______


    [ quoting JB Hixson ]

    "In the first century, we see apostasia used by the historian,
    Josephus, in a political sense (Jos. Vit., 43) to
    signify a rebellion against civil authority. However,
    the term was also used during this time to describe a
    fever departing from an ill person, and a boat departing
    from a dock." --JB Hixson

    [ end quoting ]

    _______

    [quoting G Harry Leafe article]

    --The Use of Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 • Scriptel.org (G. Harry Leafe)

    " It has also been used of the departure of a fever from an ill person. 10"

    "10 Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. 1996. A Greek-English lexicon. "With a revised supplement, 1996." (Rev. and augm. throughout /). Clarendon Press; Oxford University Press: Oxford; New York., p. 218. "

    http://www.scriptel.org/wp-content/u...alonians-2.pdf

    [possibly some caveats regarding the rest of the article, I don't exactly recall what all it covered, but THIS point quoted above is what I'm pointing out here]

    _______

    "In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”[8]"

    --Dr Thomas Ice article

    _______

    [quoting H. Wayne House]

    "[B]The Use of the Definite Article with apostasia

    "One finds the use of the Greek article with apostasia in 2 Thess 2:3. Another example of this in 1 Macc 2:15, where defection from the Old Testament faith is generally viewed to be the proper translation of he apostasia. "And those who came from the king were compelling the defection in the city of Modein, in order to sacrifice." (1 Macc 2:15). What is the significance of these two instances? Similar to this passage in 1 Maccabees, 2 Thess 2:3 has the article and no qualifiers, such as defection from God, so the context is determinative for the meaning of apostasia. In the first two chapters of 1 Maccabees there is a description of the Greek victory of Israel by Alexander the Greek until the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, with the latter king invading Judah and enforcing a desecration of the temple. When one studies the context of 2 Thess 2:13 in the same way, the context speaks of the coming of Christ for the church and the coming man of sin after the restrainer is removed."

    --H. Wayne House, "Is the Rapture Found in 2 Thessalonians 2:3?"

    https://www.pre-trib.org/pretribfile...theRapture.pdf

    [with minor caveats; bold and underline mine--keep this article excerpt in mind when reading the other parts of these 2 posts I'm making]

    [continue to next post--since I cannot "proof-read" so to speak, I'm hoping this post doesn't flub up in some way ]

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  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Are you saying that the man of sin is not revealed Until Jesus comes at the time of Armageddon?
    It starts when Christ resurrects the two prophets. The world thought the AC was God, and defeating these people only showed how powerful he was but when they come back alive, the world will know this "God" was not the true God because only God can resurrect the dead...Christ that same day, likely moments after they rise into heaven...seeing Christ return will further this revealing of the truth. This is when many will want the rocks to fall on them because they fear the wrath that's coming.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pesachpup
    replied
    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yes that is true but it happens at the end of the GT not before it. He will reveal to the world that the one who claimed to be God and did seem like a God was actually just a liar, the man of sin all along.
    Are you saying that the man of sin is not revealed Until Jesus comes at the time of Armageddon?

    Be Blessed
    The PuP

    Leave a comment:

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