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  • Defining Divine Wrath

    Nowhere in the Scriptures is the last 3.5 years of the present age stated to be "Divine Wrath." What is Divine Wrath? It is divine punishment inflicted upon sinners, whether in the temporal sense or in the eternal sense. And it may happen to either believers or unbelievers.


    An example of "Divine Wrath," for example, would be the Assyrian Captivity. It was God's punishment inflicted upon the Northern Kingdom of Israel due to their obstinacy and persistence in worshiping idols, ignoring and willfully disobeying the Law of God. They were taken out of the land of Israel to give the land rest from Israel's sins. And they were punished for an indeterminate length of time.


    The Babylonian Captivity was likewise God's Wrath poured out on the Southern Kingdom of Judah, for the same reason. But they were given a determined length of time for punishment, namely 70 years. It should be clear from both these examples that Divine Wrath was not poured out in strictly the eternal sense, although for some that was certainly true. But since many were given opportunity to return from Captivity, it is clear that this Divine Wrath was in some cases purely a temporal judgment.


    Deut 29.28 In furious anger and in great wrath the Lord uprooted them from their land and thrust them into another land, as it is now.


    So when the NT Scriptures indicate that Divine Wrath is not for believers, it is not talking about temporal punishment. Rather, it is talking about eternal punishment. Eternal punishment is *never* for believers.


    1 Thes 5.9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.


    On the other hand, believers may go through the very experience that for unbelievers constitutes "Divine Wrath. In other words, God may inflict the world with earthquakes, weather disasters, wars, etc., in which both believers and unbelievers suffer and die. But this does not mean this is "God's Wrath" unless the people who suffer and die are actually the *targets* of this punishment.


    Even though I may die in a tornado sent upon a wicked town, I am merely the victim, and not the target, of God's Wrath. I am collateral damage, but not the victim of Divine Wrath. Believers are never promised immunity from the *experience* of a Divine Wrath *event.* But they are promised to not be the target of such an event while they are living in obedience. They are promised immunity from *Eternal Wrath!*

    For example, when believers suffer persecution from unbelievers, they are not experiencing "Divine Wrath." Rather, they suffer the result of God inflicting the world with fallen societies, due to Man's choice to sin.


    In the final 3.5 years of the age the Antichrist will reign and pour out his own wrath upon believers. This is *not* an example of "Divine Wrath." On the other hand, unbelievers suffer God's Wrath in various forms *throughout the present age,* which does not wait until the final 3.5 years of the age!


    For example, wars have taken place throughout history, as well as various plagues and catastrophes, constituting examples of "Divine Wrath," and this does not wait until the end of the age. This example of cursing upon unbelievers also takes place in the time of Antichrist, although it is clear from the curses of Mt. Ebal under the Law that curses have been afflicted upon men from the beginning of time, ie from the time of the Fall.


    1 Sam 28.18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today.


    What happens, particularly, at the very end of the age, is the last battle, called "Armageddon," which I believe is a world-wide nuclear war. It will destroy the armies of the Antichrist, which is obviously an example of "Divine Wrath." In no way does this mean that Divine Wrath has not been taking place throughout history. But the ultimate example of Divine Wrath is eternal judgment, which unbelievers are completely immune from. Believers may even suffer a form of temporal wrath from God. But it is in no way *Eternal Wrath* that they experience when they are chastised in the present age.


    2 Sam 6.8 Then David was angry because the Lord’s wrath had broken out against Uzzah, and to this day that place is called Perez Uzzah.


    1 Chron 27.24 Joab son of Zeruiah began to count the men but did not finish. God’s wrath came on Israel on account of this numbering, and the number was not entered in the book of the annals of King David.



    Let me make it clear here. When God said that He will not forgive Israel for certain sins, He was not necessarily saying they would suffer Eternal Wrath. What He was rather saying is that He would no longer refrain from pouring punishment out on the sin, whereas previously he had refrained and relented, due to acts of contrition and repentance. The pouring out of a punishment means that the recipients of that punishment will experience it and cannot avoid it. What it does not mean is that the punishment necessarily is *eternal,* although that may certainly be the case, depending how the final judgment is delivered to the individual.


    2 Chron 12.7 When the Lord saw that they humbled themselves, this word of the Lord came to Shemaiah: “Since they have humbled themselves, I will not destroy them but will soon give them deliverance. My wrath will not be poured out on Jerusalem through Shishak.


    2 Chron 36.16 But they mocked God’s messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets until the wrath of the Lord was aroused against his people and there was no remedy.


    As I stated earlier, Israel went through punishment that God would no longer refrain from. Since Israel did go through this judgment, and was restored after the Babylonian Judgment, this determination to pour out Divine Wrath did not necessarily constitute Eternal Wrath.

    Deut 29.20 The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them. All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven. (this latter statement has to do with temporal death--not eternal death)


    When Jesus 1st came on the scene he referred to a particular example of Divine Wrath about to fall upon national Israel. It would take place "in this generation," and was, I believe, the Abomination of Desolation--the Roman Army coming to destroy Jerusalem and to destroy the temple, as predicted in Dan 9. It took place in 70 AD.


    Matt 3.7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?


    There is also a particular Day of Wrath mentioned that will take place when God renders eternal judgment upon individuals for the lack of repentance and for their persistence in rebelling against Him.


    Rom 2.5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

  • #2
    Re: Defining Divine Wrath

    THE LORDS WRATH – how will it happen?

    This much prophesied, still to come, Lords Day of vengeance and wrath – will happen at the same time as an attack against Israel. Psalms 7:12-16 People think there may be a nuclear exchange, but what is more certain is what the prophets say:
    Jeremiah 50:25 The Lord opens His armoury and brings forth the weapons of His wrath, for this is His work to be done in the lands of the godless peoples.
    Isaiah 34:5 For My sword appears in heaven, it descends in judgement.
    Psalm 11:4-6 The Lord is in heaven, raining fiery coals onto the wicked.
    Isaiah 66:15-16 See, the Lord is coming in fire, like a whirlwind. He will judge with fire, His sword will test mankind and many will be slain by Him.
    Isaiah 33:10-12 Now I shall arise, says the Lord, I will exalt Myself. You will be as chaff and stubble, a wind like fire will consume you. Whole nations will be heaps of white ash, like thorns cut down and set on fire.
    Psalm 144:5-6 Lord, part the heavens. Make lightning flashes far and wide.
    Isaiah 30:30 Then the Lord will make His voice heard in majesty...descending in fierce anger with devouring flames of fire amid storms and hail.
    Jeremiah 30:23-24 See what a scorching wind has gone out from God, a sweeping whirlwind which whirls around the heads of the wicked. The Lords fierce anger is not to be turned aside until He has fully accomplished His purposes. In Days to come you will understand.
    Isaiah 29:5-6 Yet, the horde of Your enemies will crumble into dust, fly away like chaff. Suddenly in an instant punishment will come from the Lord, with storms, thunder, earthquakes and great noise and a flame of devouring fire.
    Isaiah 9:19 The land is scorched by the Lord, the people are like fuel for the fire.
    Isaiah 10:17 The Light of Israel will become a fire, its Holy One a flame, which, in one day will burn up and consume His thorns and briars.
    Isaiah 30:26 On the Day that the Lord saves His people, the sun will shine with seven times its usual brightness and the moon will be as bright as the sun.
    See; the Lord comes from afar, His anger blazing and His doom heavy. His lips are charged with wrath and His tongue is a devouring fire. His breath is like a torrent in spate. He sieves out the nations for destruction
    . Isaiah 63:1-6

    What these (and other) prophecies say, seem to be describing is sunspot activity.
    Maybe the sun is building up to a huge Coronal Mass Ejection, something we do experience with minor CME’s. They happen very suddenly and unexpectedly, reaching earth within hours and are capable of causing enormous damage and deaths worldwide.
    All electrical and communications systems, industry, transport, you name it, could be destroyed, or at least severely damaged. Armies would be back to 1800’s technology.
    A CME explosion of the suns surface, as described in Isaiah 30:26, with the sun flashing 7 times brighter, would be one of unprecedented magnitude and would literally cause all the graphically prophesied effects. For example; the moon would shine bright red as it reflects this sun explosion and all our satellites would fall like ripe figs.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Defining Divine Wrath

      Originally posted by Keraz View Post
      THE LORDS WRATH – how will it happen?

      This much prophesied, still to come, Lords Day of vengeance and wrath – will happen at the same time as an attack against Israel. Psalms 7:12-16 People think there may be a nuclear exchange, but what is more certain is what the prophets say:
      Jeremiah 50:25 The Lord opens His armoury and brings forth the weapons of His wrath, for this is His work to be done in the lands of the godless peoples.
      Isaiah 34:5 For My sword appears in heaven, it descends in judgement.
      Psalm 11:4-6 The Lord is in heaven, raining fiery coals onto the wicked.
      Isaiah 66:15-16 See, the Lord is coming in fire, like a whirlwind. He will judge with fire, His sword will test mankind and many will be slain by Him.
      Isaiah 33:10-12 Now I shall arise, says the Lord, I will exalt Myself. You will be as chaff and stubble, a wind like fire will consume you. Whole nations will be heaps of white ash, like thorns cut down and set on fire.
      Psalm 144:5-6 Lord, part the heavens. Make lightning flashes far and wide.
      Isaiah 30:30 Then the Lord will make His voice heard in majesty...descending in fierce anger with devouring flames of fire amid storms and hail.
      Jeremiah 30:23-24 See what a scorching wind has gone out from God, a sweeping whirlwind which whirls around the heads of the wicked. The Lords fierce anger is not to be turned aside until He has fully accomplished His purposes. In Days to come you will understand.
      Isaiah 29:5-6 Yet, the horde of Your enemies will crumble into dust, fly away like chaff. Suddenly in an instant punishment will come from the Lord, with storms, thunder, earthquakes and great noise and a flame of devouring fire.
      Isaiah 9:19 The land is scorched by the Lord, the people are like fuel for the fire.
      Isaiah 10:17 The Light of Israel will become a fire, its Holy One a flame, which, in one day will burn up and consume His thorns and briars.
      Isaiah 30:26 On the Day that the Lord saves His people, the sun will shine with seven times its usual brightness and the moon will be as bright as the sun.
      See; the Lord comes from afar, His anger blazing and His doom heavy. His lips are charged with wrath and His tongue is a devouring fire. His breath is like a torrent in spate. He sieves out the nations for destruction
      . Isaiah 63:1-6

      What these (and other) prophecies say, seem to be describing is sunspot activity.
      Maybe the sun is building up to a huge Coronal Mass Ejection, something we do experience with minor CME’s. They happen very suddenly and unexpectedly, reaching earth within hours and are capable of causing enormous damage and deaths worldwide.
      All electrical and communications systems, industry, transport, you name it, could be destroyed, or at least severely damaged. Armies would be back to 1800’s technology.
      A CME explosion of the suns surface, as described in Isaiah 30:26, with the sun flashing 7 times brighter, would be one of unprecedented magnitude and would literally cause all the graphically prophesied effects. For example; the moon would shine bright red as it reflects this sun explosion and all our satellites would fall like ripe figs.
      As I've said before, I have no particular message regarding a specific judgment, or of a specific kind of judgment. If that is *your word,* then it is for you to say it. I simply cannot confirm it--not based on these quotations.

      Fire is often used as a metaphor for judgment because we all know that fire consumes garbage. God deals with sin like a man deals with trash in his backyard--He burns the trash up!

      Israel is portrayed as God's People, when they are obeying the Lord. And their enemies are pagans, who oppose them because they represent the Lord and His righteousness. Fire would burn up Israel's enemies in this respect.

      There is another aspect in which Israel herself is viewed as ungodly and disobedient to God's laws. In that case, they also will be burned with the "fire of the Lord." God has used even pagan enemies to judge Israel, and to bring the "fire of God" upon Israel.

      Sometimes their cities were literally burned with fire. "Fire" is a metaphor for judgment, but it was also a literal judgment.

      I just cannot say that it will, in the future, be a CME or not. But the way we would prepare for it would be the way we would prepare for any of God's judgments--we live in righteousness and repent of our sins. We humble ourselves and pray, we seek His face and turn from our wicked ways. Then He will see us from heaven, and forgive us. Indeed!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Defining Divine Wrath

        I cannot imagine what God's wrath that is totally unleashed on the earth will be like if, at that time, men desire that rocks fall on them! Wow. Glad I'm on the winning team in Christ.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Defining Divine Wrath

          Originally posted by randyk View Post

          When Jesus 1st came on the scene he referred to a particular example of Divine Wrath about to fall upon national Israel. It would take place "in this generation," and was, I believe, the Abomination of Desolation--the Roman Army coming to destroy Jerusalem and to destroy the temple, as predicted in Dan 9. It took place in 70 AD.
          Yes
          The rest of the Nations will do well to take heed of that example as Jesus Gospel is preached in the whole world as well. They will not escape either.


          There is also a particular Day of Wrath mentioned that will take place when God renders eternal judgment upon individuals for the lack of repentance and for their persistence in rebelling against Him.




          Yes exactly.
          This is Gods fixed day of revealing the righteous judgment of God.

          Act 17
          24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”


          Ro 2
          5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.




          We all as one flock will then live with him happily ever after.
          And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Defining Divine Wrath

            Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
            Yes
            The rest of the Nations will do well to take heed of that example as Jesus Gospel is preached in the whole world as well. They will not escape either.
            Yes exactly.
            This is Gods fixed day of revealing the righteous judgment of God.

            Act 17
            24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

            Ro 2
            5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

            We all as one flock will then live with him happily ever after.
            Perfect confirmation, Jeff! Thanks much!

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Defining Divine Wrath

              I just thought and the prophets do too, that it would be handy for us all to know what will trigger it and the cause and effects of the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath will be. All as Written in the Bible.

              Why most seem unable to comprehend, or don't want to know, is also prophesied. The Bible plainly tells us that those who choose to believe false teachings, will be blinded to the truths, just as the Jews are in their situation. Isaiah 28:9-12, Ephesians 4:18, 1 Corinthians 3:18-20, Matthew 11:25

              But I absolutely agree that for now, we must live righteously and when that Day does come; Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Defining Divine Wrath

                Originally posted by randyk View Post
                Nowhere in the Scriptures is the last 3.5 years of the present age stated to be "Divine Wrath." What is Divine Wrath? It is divine punishment inflicted upon sinners, whether in the temporal sense or in the eternal sense. And it may happen to either believers or unbelievers.

                We humans have a method of developing a term to encompass a concept that is presented. So the term "Divine Wrath" is not inherently incorrect, but it never occurs in scripture. Rather, what does occur over and over is the term, "THE WRATH OF GOD". This wrath is well documented in scripture, as you have pointed out. So, to check the veracity of your statement above, concerning "the wrath of God" during the last 3.5 years of this age, we need to see if the Tribulation that comes upon the whole earth and upon the inhabitants of the earth, is in any way, connected to the wrath of God. But first, is God's wrath at the end of this age promised and/or predicted generally. It is. In Romans 1:16-18 we learn;

                16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
                17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
                18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness."


                These few verses are worth a book, but the salient points are that it encompasses the gospel age (v.16) wherein both Jew and Gentile are equally eligible for its effects. Verse 17 gives the effects. It does not make men righteous or godly. The gospel is good news that God has established a "righteousness" that He accepts, and which it can be imputed to men. Verse 18 starts with "FOR". It gives the reason why God established this righteousness. It is established so that men who face the wrath of God, might be saved. Verse 18 is emphatic. It does not suggest that God could be wrathful. It plainly predicts that at a certain point the gospel will cease and God will pour out His wrath FROM HEAVEN upon the refusers of the gospel. And the following verses give the reason for this wrath. It is twofold
                1. It is poured out because men, having the faculties to appreciate that this grand creation could not have come out of nothing, refuse the great Creator and rather, lowering their sights to the creation itself, worship it
                2. It is poured out because men, knowing good and evil via Law or conscience, fashion their behavior contrary to what God requires (Rom.2:12-15) - that is, "UN-godliness"

                So the above prophecy, or prediction, by its context - the gospel, implies that the gospel will run a length of time to reach men, and then, when refusal is the set decision, God will pour out His wrath on men not designated to be saved from it. And since it is "revealed from heaven", we have only to look for a set of circumstances where men are plagued from something that was hatched in heaven. And the last 3.5 years of this age is the only time that all these criteria are met.
                1. The gospel is clearly refused by the choice of a Gentile king over the designated Jewish King
                2. The evil perpetrated at the time of the last world judgement - that at Noah's time, is repeated
                3. The evil perpetrated at the last judgement from heaven - that of Lot's time, is repeated
                4. The wrath of God is poured out on the whole earth. No corner will be left untouched
                5. The wrath has a specific beginning date - the day that this Gentile king is approved by the earth and by Israel to sit in the Holy of Holies of a Temple in Jerusalem
                6. The wrath has a specific ending - the crushing by military force, the Gentile king and his armies

                And if we search to discover if "THE WRATH OF GOD" is connected to this time, we will establish whether the Great Tribulation is indeed the WRATH OF GOD. And we do not have to search long. TEN TIMES within the parameters of this Great Tribulation, in Revelation 6:16, 6:17, 11:18, 14:10, 14:19, 15:1, 15:7, 16:1, 16:19 and 19:15, the discomfort and mass death among men is reported to be "THE WRATH OF GOD". In only ONE VERSE is it revealed that Satan, now banished from heaven, exercises his wrath (Rev.12:12). In only TWO VERSES, in Revelation 14:8 and 18:3, is the wrath of Rome's political, religious and commercial fornication with the earth described as "wrath". But BOTH verses are written in the past tense and so do not specifically deal with the 3.5 year period in which the majority of men tun to worship a Gentile king and his effigy.

                Thus we discover that TEN TIMES, the travail of the whole earth and its inhabitants is connected to the WRATH OF GOD - a wrath designed, produced and hatched in heaven. Revelation Chapter 5 is set in heaven, and the Seals containing the agonies of men and beast and the earth, are opened by none other than the newly crowned Jewish King - Jesus Christ. And in only ONE case, additional suffering is inflicted on men by Satan's desperation as his time as "god of this world" draws to a close.

                I propose that the 3½ year Great Tribulation is the "WRATH OF GOD".

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Defining Divine Wrath

                  Originally posted by Walls View Post
                  And if we search to discover if "THE WRATH OF GOD" is connected to this time, we will establish whether the Great Tribulation is indeed the WRATH OF GOD. And we do not have to search long. TEN TIMES within the parameters of this Great Tribulation, in Revelation 6:16, 6:17, 11:18, 14:10, 14:19, 15:1, 15:7, 16:1, 16:19 and 19:15, the discomfort and mass death among men is reported to be "THE WRATH OF GOD". In only ONE VERSE is it revealed that Satan, now banished from heaven, exercises his wrath (Rev.12:12). In only TWO VERSES, in Revelation 14:8 and 18:3, is the wrath of Rome's political, religious and commercial fornication with the earth described as "wrath". But BOTH verses are written in the past tense and so do not specifically deal with the 3.5 year period in which the majority of men tun to worship a Gentile king and his effigy.

                  Thus we discover that TEN TIMES, the travail of the whole earth and its inhabitants is connected to the WRATH OF GOD - a wrath designed, produced and hatched in heaven. Revelation Chapter 5 is set in heaven, and the Seals containing the agonies of men and beast and the earth, are opened by none other than the newly crowned Jewish King - Jesus Christ. And in only ONE case, additional suffering is inflicted on men by Satan's desperation as his time as "god of this world" draws to a close.

                  I propose that the 3½ year Great Tribulation is the "WRATH OF GOD".
                  Rev 6.16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

                  This refers to the Coming of Christ, and the wrath of God to be directed against Antichrist at that time. This certainly does *not* identify a 3.5 year period at a "time of wrath."

                  Rev 11.16 We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.

                  Again, this time of divine wrath has to do with the time of Christ's Return, at the end of the age--on the last day of the age. This does not identify the 3.5 year period as the "time of wrath."

                  Rev 14.10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb... 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

                  Again, this is a *Day* of wrath, and not a period of wrath. The "winepress of God's wrath" relates to the defeat of Antichrist at Christ's Return.

                  Rev 15.1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed... 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.

                  As the passage itself indicates, this is the *completion* of God's Wrath. God's Wrath is *completed* at the end of the age, and does not equate God's Wrath with a period of time preceding the end. The focus is on Christ's Return, and not on a period of time preceding it.

                  There is no question that God's wrath begins prior to the last day of the age. But the focus is on the *completion* of that wrath, and not with identifying the entire period of 3.5 years as a "time of wrath."

                  Rev 16.1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.” ...19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

                  This is saying the same thing as earlier, that God's bowls of wrath relate to the very end of the age, and not to the preceding time period. Certainly, God's wrath precedes the last day. But the focus here is on the consummation of that wrath at the end of the age. Clearly, the breakup of the "great city," Jerusalem, indicates that, along with the collapse of the "cities of the nations." We see something similar in Zech 14, when Jerusalem is divided by a great earthquake.

                  Rev 19.15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

                  This is the "winepress" spoken of earlier, in Rev 14.20, the coming of Christ on the last day of the age, at Armageddon. As you can see, all of your 10 verses relate, in my thinking, to the last day of the age, when Christ returns.

                  There is no question that God's Wrath is already present in the present sinful age. God's wrath is *already* manifest against unbelievers, just as it was in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah. AIDS is a clear example of divine wrath, even though it is not the predicted eschatological wrath to be revealed on the last day, when Christ returns.

                  None of the verses you cited identify the 3.5 year *period* as synonymous with "God's Wrath." The Gospel does not terminate prior to the 3.5 years. Clearly, there are Christians being beheaded in the 3.5 year period in which Antichrist reigns. Clearly, the Gospel is being preached by an angel in midheaven during this period of time! (Rev 14.6).

                  Obviously, you utilize these references to "God's Wrath" in a different way than I do! But none of them identify God's Wrath with the *period of time* you call "the Great Tribulation." Quite frankly, I don't even see that period identified, at all, as "the Great Tribulation!" But I digress.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Defining Divine Wrath

                    This post will be short/choppy... I don't have as much time to spend in order to make it flow better (my apologies)…

                    I believe the "2nd SEAL Wars" [parallel one of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"] INCLUDES "the Gog-Magog War" (Ezek 38-39) and that 38:18-19 uses "WRATH" words, 39:9 uses the timing words "burn them [the weapons] with fire SEVEN YEARS" (distinct from the "seven MONTHS" in v.12), and that v.7 says (in very similar wording to that of Gen45:1 re: Joseph when "there STOOD NO MAN WITH him, while Joseph MADE HIMSELF KNOWN UNTO HIS BRETHREN" [when there were "YET FIVE YEARS" remaining in his "seven year famine"]) where Ezek39:7 says (of this "Gog-Magog War") "So [/in this way] will I MAKE MY HOLY NAME KNOWN in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL" (note: the phrase "MY PEOPLE ISRAEL" indicating that He has turned His attention back to Israel, DURING this future, specific, limited time period [aka "the 70th Week (7-yrs) of Daniel, which PROPHECY was worded like "70 Weeks ARE DETERMINED UPON thy [Daniel's] people, and upon thy [Daniel's] holy city," per Dan9:24, and that 69-total of them were concluded on the very day Jesus SAID the words of Lk19:41-44 (also Matt22:7 and Lk21:20,23) and DID the action of Zech9:9, BOTH having to do with "the city," that is, 69-total were concluded on Palm Sunday--"ONE WEEK [7-yrs]" yet remains])

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                    • #11
                      Re: Defining Divine Wrath

                      P.S. I forgot to also say (what I'd wanted to point out)…

                      that Revelation 15:1 (speaking of the VIALS that come well after the SEALS I just spoke of ^ ) says,

                      "And I saw another great and wonderful sign in heaven: seven angels, having seven plagues--the last, because in them [that is, in the VIALS] the wrath of God WAS COMPLETED."

                      ["because IN THEM [in the VIALS] the wrath of God was COMPLETED," NOT when it was STARTED
                      --it starts back when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" and open the FIRST SEAL (which, as I've said, I see the wording in Lam2:3-4 [amidst "WRATH" words there] being parallel with what is stated in 2Th2:7b-8a [when the man of sin "be revealed"... that is, at the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period/the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 and Matt24:4/Mk13:5 ("a certain one [G5100 - tis]" bringing [the word] "DECEIVE"/deception)]" of many more birth pangs [plural] that will follow on from there!])]

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                      • #12
                        Re: Defining Divine Wrath

                        Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                        P.S. I forgot to also say (what I'd wanted to point out)…

                        that Revelation 15:1 (speaking of the VIALS that come well after the SEALS I just spoke of ^ ) says,

                        "And I saw another great and wonderful sign in heaven: seven angels, having seven plagues--the last, because in them [that is, in the VIALS] the wrath of God WAS COMPLETED."

                        ["because IN THEM [in the VIALS] the wrath of God was COMPLETED," NOT when it was STARTED
                        --it starts back when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" and open the FIRST SEAL (which, as I've said, I see the wording in Lam2:3-4 [amidst "WRATH" words there] being parallel with what is stated in 2Th2:7b-8a [when the man of sin "be revealed"... that is, at the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period/the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 and Matt24:4/Mk13:5 ("a certain one [G5100 - tis]" bringing [the word] "DECEIVE"/deception)]" of many more birth pangs [plural] that will follow on from there!])]
                        As to when the vials of wrath initially begin, one thing we can know for certain is, when they can't begin.

                        Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

                        Until the following is fulfilled first, there can not yet be any vials of wrath being poured out, period.

                        Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

                        Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
                        15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
                        16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
                        17*And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

                        First they have to make an image to the beast, which results in, that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed, plus the fp then causing all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads...before there can even be the first vial being poured out on these same ones in verse 16 in Rev 13, which are obviously meaning these same ones being targeted in Revelation 16:2.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Defining Divine Wrath

                          Originally posted by divaD View Post
                          As to when the vials of wrath initially begin, one thing we can know for certain is, when they can't begin.
                          Well, if you're saying what I THINK you are saying, here ^ , the point of my post didn't have to do with "when the vials begin"...

                          but instead, that when they DO begin, they themselves are "THE COMPLETION" of His wrath ("having seven plagues--the LAST, because IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED"<--my point was to say that these 7 Vials, having seven LAST plagues, are not the STARTING-point of His wrath, but the CONCLUDING of it … "for IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED" [but it STARTED way back when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:4, Lam2:3-4/2Th2:7b-8a) at the opening of SEAL #1, in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period [Rev1:1/4:1/1:19c (7:3) time period], the 7-yr trib/70th-Wk )

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                          • #14
                            Re: Defining Divine Wrath

                            Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                            Well, if you're saying what I THINK you are saying, here ^ , the point of my post didn't have to do with "when the vials begin"...

                            but instead, that when they DO begin, they themselves are "THE COMPLETION" of His wrath ("having seven plagues--the LAST, because IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED"<--my point was to say that these 7 Vials, having seven LAST plagues, are not the STARTING-point of His wrath, but the CONCLUDING of it … "for IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED" [but it STARTED way back when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:4, Lam2:3-4/2Th2:7b-8a) at the opening of SEAL #1, in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period [Rev1:1/4:1/1:19c (7:3) time period], the 7-yr trib/70th-Wk )
                            I would think the timing of Revelation 13:11-17 would be during the GT. But I wouldn't think any vials of wrath are being poured out during the 42 months though. The pouring out of the vials fit after the GT, and not during.

                            They would fit during the following that I have underlined.

                            Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

                            According to this verse this is immediately after the tribulation of those days, the 42 month reign of the beast meaning the trib of those days, yet is prior to the 2nd coming found below.

                            Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

                            Maybe this period after the GT, but prior to the 2nd coming, explains some of the following in Dan 12?

                            Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
                            12*Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


                            Since we already know the GT is 1260 days, that leaves 75 days remaining in order to get to day 1335. I would then place these 75 days during what I have underlined in Matthew 24:29, making day 1335 to be meaning this in Matt 24:30...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

                            I'm not claiming this is correct for a fact since I don't know whether it is or not. So this is just a proposed theory then that might work, and might not work. But only meaning in regards to Dan 12:11-12 though and my proposed connections with that of Matt 24:29-30.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Defining Divine Wrath

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              [I]....

                              None of the verses you cited identify the 3.5 year *period* as synonymous with "God's Wrath." The Gospel does not terminate prior to the 3.5 years. Clearly, there are Christians being beheaded in the 3.5 year period in which Antichrist reigns. Clearly, the Gospel is being preached by an angel in midheaven during this period of time! (Rev 14.6).

                              Obviously, you utilize these references to "God's Wrath" in a different way than I do! But none of them identify God's Wrath with the *period of time* you call "the Great Tribulation." Quite frankly, I don't even see that period identified, at all, as "the Great Tribulation!" But I digress.
                              The Book is called "Revelation" - "Apokalypsis" in the Greek. It means "the revealing", "the uncovering" and/or "the disclosure". The whole Book concerns the events surround the Revealing of Jesus Christ from heaven. Already in Chapter 1 verse 7 the Greek is "erchomai" - His "ARRIVAL". In Chapter 1 verse 20 seven Churches are addressed. In Chapter 2 and 3, of the seven Churches, the last four are faced with His "COMING". In Chapter 4 our Lord Jesus, Who has sat for 2,000 years in His Father's throne, now receives a crown and a throne, and the opening verse of Chapter 5 is the Seals to be opened by Him to torment men.

                              The whole Book of Apocalypse concerns mostly the last 3.5 years.

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