The False Prophet

[Pesachpup]

Re: The False Prophet

But why does there even need to be a 7 headed beast rising out of the sea, if 6 of it's heads play no part in anything? I still tend to think that the 4 beasts we see in Dan 7, they all merged into the single beast we see in Rev 13.

Isn't that what Daniel 2 and 7, et al, are all about?

The 4 kingdoms of gold, etc, will reunite in the last days to create the great image of Dan 2. Only to have them "broken into pieces together" at the time of the setting up of the everlasting kingdom of God?

Dan 2:35 KJV Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

These 4 kingdoms of gold, silver, brass and iron (mixed with clay) will reunite in the last days, attack Israel and thus be broken up into their individual parts in conjunction with when the little horn "breaks the whole world into pieces"

Dan 7:23 KJV Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

And what we see in the beast from the sea is the combined kingdom of the lion, bear, leopard and the head of the 4th beast, which would then account for the 7 heads. Four comes out of the leopard and 1 each from the other 3 kingdoms, totaling 7. Afterwards, the kingdom of the beast will re-emerge, as the beast from the earth. But because the great image (Kingdom) has been broken into its individual pieces of gold, silver, bronze and iron, The beast from the earth re-emerges (from the bottomless pit???), as a kingdom that now has only 2 horns. In accordance with Daniel 8, the only one of those 4 kingdoms that is said to have 2 horns is the Medo-Persian.

Be Blessed
The PuP

[boangry]

Re: The False Prophet

satan is only in the pit one time, that being during the thousand years. If he seen coming out of the pit in Rev 9, that assuming he is abaddon, the only way he could have gotten in there to begin with, would be when he is cast into it by the angel that comes down from heaven in Rev 20:1.

Trying to make a rule that Satan can be in the pit only once just seems to make more problems for me, What did abaddon do that got him chucked in the pit? when did he get chucked in there? You will be left saying to me we are not told so you cannot know(which is code for I don't know so nobody knows)

Yet I see him cast into the pit by Jesus, John 12:31 "now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out and I if I am lifted up from the earth will draw all peoples to myself"

But let's look at this a different way instead.

Revelation 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt...but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Why would satan be attacking and tormenting his own followers, rather than attacking and tormenting the followers of Christ instead? Anyone not having the seal of God in their forehead, would obviously be men of satan, and not men of God. So it seems to me that these locusts being let out, are serving God's purposes and not satan's purposes instead.

First point Satan and the demons serve Gods purposes. Secondly are you indicating that Satan and his demons would do nothing to non believers and only torment believers? and that abaddon would be the opposite and only command them to attack non believers? Also I think it is from God the command comes not to harm those who are sealed, the trees etc

Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Why would satan be the angel of the bottomless pit? It seems to me, when he gets cast into it in Rev 20:1-3, that he is probably not exactly thrilled about it. And if he is the angel of it, why does Rev 20:1-3 have him depicted as locked and chained within the place he is supposed to be the angel of?

Im struggling with your logic here, if I turn the question around and ask it back to you maybe you could explain why its obviously abaddon whoever it is you think abaddon is?
Why would abaddon be the angel of the bottomless pit? It seems to me, when he gets cast into it John 12:31(sry not sure what verse you use) that he is probably not exactly thrilled about it. And if he is the angel of it, why does Jude 6 have him depicted as locked and chained within the place he is supposed to be the angel of?

[ewq1938]

Re: The False Prophet

A "time" is 360 days if we go by the translation of time, times, half of time.

In our lives a season is 90 days. Thus it would be logical to assume a season here is 90 days unless otherwise noted.

So we have a total of 450 days.

None of that is established as correct in the book of Daniel. It's pure speculation.

Dan 7:12* As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.*

season
H2166
זְמָן
zemân
zem-awn'
(Chaldee); from H2165; the same as H2165: - season, time.
Total KJV occurrences: 11

H2165
זְמָן
zemân
zem-awn'
From H2163; an appointed occasion: - season, time.
Total KJV occurrences: 4

This has no specific length. If the appointed occasion is a thousand years or 10 years then that's how long it is.

time
H5732
עִדָּן
‛iddân
id-dawn'
(Chaldee); from a root corresponding to that of H5708; a set time; technically a year: - time.
Total KJV occurrences: 13

Normal use of this is for a year but it is not limited to that either. So, season and a time in the Hebrew can be any length of time added together.

[ewq1938]

Re: The False Prophet

Maybe it's just me, but I would think when it comes to worshiping someone, the worshiping typically involves the worshiping of a single entity, such as the man beast you conclude is meaning the ac. But the text does not say he is being worshiped nor is even trying to be worshiped, but is directing worship to the first beast, who you conclude is a large empire of ten united kingdoms. We also have to keep in mind, if this is who the first beast is, when the beast gets cast into the LOF, this means this large empire of ten united kingdoms get cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming, since these would be the beast per your understanding.

All it means if the organization and establishment of those kingdoms as a single massive empire is being destroyed. Remember the book is using heavy levels of symbolism and in Rev 17 we are told what the metaphors mean...ten kingdoms within 7 mountains. It speaks of this empire as a wild and dangerous beast, multi headed and many horns which is cast into the LOF. We have to interpret what that means. In other passages these kingdom type organizations of the unsaved nations are vessels not a beast and they are broken to pieces...same concept. Their ability to form their own governments and kingdoms etc are taken away from them. That leaves them powerless and thus easy to rule with a rod of iron. No kings, no kingdoms, no armies...nothing to fight back or rebel with against the holy rule of Christ and the saints.

[ewq1938]

Re: The False Prophet

If Satan and Abaddon are the same person then would you agree that Satan is the angel of the bottomless pit and the king over the demons there, which means they are released accordingly to Rev 9 when the fifth angel sounds. And if you do can I ask you when did the demons he rules over get put into the pit, and when did Satan get put into the pit?

We aren't told when the demons were put there. We also aren't told Satan was locked in the pit. Since he is free to start a war in heaven before the GT began, Rev 12, then he was free when the pit was opened. He simply went into it and came out leading his demons. The only time he will be locked in the pit is Rev 20.

Anyway keeping on topic, we know the lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels, so why are these demons not pleading to Jesus o do not send us into the lake of fire we beg of you? instead they are imploring the Lord to not send them into the pit/abyss and ask to be sent into the herd of swine. I take it we can see that the demons have an understanding that they are going to be cast not into the LoF yet but into the pit.

I assume they believe Satan will win and they will never go to the LOF. Their only concern is their freedom, and Christ grants their request so that is an interesting issue in and of itself.

Jesus granted them permission to enter the swine, yet the swine would not accept such a degradation, and ran headlong down into the deep water, and the demons still ended up in the abyss.

I disagree. Once something dies, the demons will leave which leaves them free to possess someone or something else. It is clear they didn't want Christ to send them to the pit so he decided it wasn't time for them to go there. Perhaps he wanted his disciples to deal with them at a later time.

For example if there are four verses, two seem to say Satan is cast out and now bound, and two seem to say Satan is going around causing mischief, I guess all We can ask is for honest application of scripture while trying the best to ignore our own preconceived views, and work out which ones are spiritual applications and which ones are literal for scripture does not and cannot contradict itself. Ive noticed God seems to creates a way in His Word, for people to be able to reject things and find contradictions in His word if they want to or conversely leaves a way for people to harmonise things.

Yes I have seen that as well.

And yes I realise you may have a view that has Satan on earth now, in heaven now and still be in the pit in the tribulation, and Im all ears :-)

I believe Satan is not yet locked in the pit because if he was, the world would be ruled by Christ and immortal saints and there would not be all this freedom to kill Christians and have these evil empires that are in power in the world.None of that happens until the world is ruled by the AC and that whole 42 month period with the mark and living image and death of the two prophets that resurrect later. That means currently Satan is not imprisoned in the pit and those events must happen before that happens to him.

[ewq1938]

Re: The False Prophet

I also tend to think the image that is built is of the first beast, and like Nebuchadnezzar's image it will be a man, so my logic tells me the first beast is also a man.

A comparison. The Nazi's loved Nazi-ism. They worshiped Hitler and the entire system and racial superiority it preached. The image of that would be the swastika. So, the image was of the organization and what it represented not an image of Hitler himself. It's the same with the beast empire. Yes, the FP directs worship of that empire just like Hitler did for his empire. Worshiping the Nazi regime was essentially worshiping the one who created it so worshiping the beast empire is the same as worshiping it's leader, the false prophet. On a side note, I don't believe Rev ever gives us any of his false prophecies yet he is a false prophet so he has to give prophecies that aren't true.

So, the first beast is not a man, and Rev 17 tells us this very plainly. A beast is an empire, and that empire consists of ten kings and kingdoms spread out within 7 mountains just like pagan Rome was. There was only one singular person who rules it all, Caesar, and thus only one ruler in Rev, the FP.

[ewq1938]

Re: The False Prophet

If satan and abaddon are the same person, this proves Amil, thus Premil is not even a valid position in that case.

It doesn't prove Amil. Christ returns before the thousand years, that proves Amil wrong. If Satan is also known as Abaddon and Apollyon, that doesn't change when Christ returns.

[ewq1938]

Re: The False Prophet

Sorry but I cant see your reasoning if you would elaborate on why you see this?

I see abaddon/Satan being released during the tribulation in which he will deceive the nations with lying wonders etc, then Satan being thrown back into the pit for a 1000 more according to Rev 20 to deceive the nations no more till the end of the 1000yrs then he will go out and gather them again.

Scripture only shows Satan being locked in the pit once. Where is this earlier time? Did you know being the angel of something like a pit does not mean they are imprisoned there?


Rev_9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.


Let's see how the expression is used elsewhere:

Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Rev_16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

Here we have the "angel of the waters" but the angel doesn't live in the waters or is trapped in the waters. Being the angel of something means they have some type of authority or relationship with the place. Here it is the waters, in the other it is the pit. Being the angel of the pit doesn't mean the angel was imprisoned in the pit but has authority over the things that were imprisoned in the pit. How I see it is the pit is opened and the angel of the pit enters, possibly leading these evil things out. I believe this angel is Satan, called two names there but Satan isn't imprisoned in the pit until just prior to the 1000 years, so here in the 5th trumpet is long before the 1000 years. So, Apollyon (who I believe is another name of satan) isn't called the angel of the pit because he is imprisoned there but because he is the leader of the evil things that were imprisoned there.


So, being an angel "of" a place doesn't mean they live or are imprisoned there.

[divaD]

Re: The False Prophet

Isn't that what Daniel 2 and 7, et al, are all about?

The 4 kingdoms of gold, etc, will reunite in the last days to create the great image of Dan 2. Only to have them "broken into pieces together" at the time of the setting up of the everlasting kingdom of God?

Dan 2:35 KJV Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

These 4 kingdoms of gold, silver, brass and iron (mixed with clay) will reunite in the last days, attack Israel and thus be broken up into their individual parts in conjunction with when the little horn "breaks the whole world into pieces"

Dan 7:23 KJV Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

And what we see in the beast from the sea is the combined kingdom of the lion, bear, leopard and the head of the 4th beast, which would then account for the 7 heads. Four comes out of the leopard and 1 each from the other 3 kingdoms, totaling 7. Afterwards, the kingdom of the beast will re-emerge, as the beast from the earth. But because the great image (Kingdom) has been broken into its individual pieces of gold, silver, bronze and iron, The beast from the earth re-emerges (from the bottomless pit???), as a kingdom that now has only 2 horns. In accordance with Daniel 8, the only one of those 4 kingdoms that is said to have 2 horns is the Medo-Persian.

Be Blessed
The PuP

I am in agreement with you here. And the point you made about Dan 2 clearly proves the Preterist understanding of that chapter is incorrect.

[divaD]

Re: The False Prophet

Im struggling with your logic here, if I turn the question around and ask it back to you maybe you could explain why its obviously abaddon whoever it is you think abaddon is?
Why would abaddon be the angel of the bottomless pit? It seems to me, when he gets cast into it John 12:31(sry not sure what verse you use) that he is probably not exactly thrilled about it. And if he is the angel of it, why does Jude 6 have him depicted as locked and chained within the place he is supposed to be the angel of?

I see your point. That was a good come back.

[divaD]

Re: The False Prophet

It doesn't prove Amil. Christ returns before the thousand years, that proves Amil wrong. If Satan is also known as Abaddon and Apollyon, that doesn't change when Christ returns.

I was basically meaning it proves Amil if abaddon had been in the pit before it opened, and that abaddon was satan, because satan wouldn't be in the closed pit and then seen coming out of it unless someone initially cast him in there to begin with. We have to keep in mind, until the falling star, which I take to be meaning an angel, unlocks the pit and opens it, this obviously indicates the pit has been closed and locked until the angel opens it. Regardless that the key is likely not literal, a key depicts something needed to unlock something that is locked, that being the point.

[ewq1938]

Re: The False Prophet

I was basically meaning it proves Amil if abaddon had been in the pit before it opened, and that abaddon was satan, because satan wouldn't be in the closed pit and then seen coming out of it unless someone initially cast him in there to begin with. We have to keep in mind, until the falling star, which I take to be meaning an angel, unlocks the pit and opens it, this obviously indicates the pit has been closed and locked until the angel opens it. Regardless that the key is likely not literal, a key depicts something needed to unlock something that is locked, that being the point.

The problem is nothing says Abaddon was in the pit before it was opened.

[divaD]

Re: The False Prophet

The problem is nothing says Abaddon was in the pit before it was opened.

So why would he be the angel of the bp then? It seems to me, whenever the bp was initially locked, whenever that may have been, it remains locked until the falling star in Rev 9 unlocks it.

[ewq1938]

Re: The False Prophet

So why would he be the angel of the bp then?

It just means he is the leader of those in the pit and that he entered the pit to organize them for his plans for the GT.

It seems to me, whenever the bp was initially locked, whenever that may have been, it remains locked until the falling star in Rev 9 unlocks it.

Yes and that's when Satan/Abaddon went into the pit.

Also, outside of this passage, have you ever seen the bible name any of the demons/fallen angels that serve Satan? Isn't it only Satan that is named and those not exactly names but descriptions of who he is morally? Accuser, deceiver, adversary etc etc.

An angel who is leader of actual demons...that sounds like Satan to me. Isn't it also strange that this king over the demons is never mentioned again? Or is it possible he is named just by another of his many many names?

[divaD]

Re: The False Prophet

The problem is nothing says Abaddon was in the pit before it was opened.

Boangry apparently thinks there is something that says that. Not only does he have satan in the pit after the GT for a thousand years, he also has him in the pit before the GT for a thousand years, apparently meaning there are 2 thousand year periods. One prior to the GT, the other after the GT.

I see abaddon/Satan being released during the tribulation in which he will deceive the nations with lying wonders etc, then Satan being thrown back into the pit for a 1000 more according to Rev 20 to deceive the nations no more till the end of the 1000yrs then he will go out and gather them again.