The False Prophet

[ewq1938]

Re: The False Prophet

He cant spew water if he is on earth.

You are making less and less sense. Space water?

[divaD]

Re: The False Prophet

How does satan persecute the woman? By spewing water as flood towards her. He cant spew water if he is on earth. In addition he has to spew water as he is not on earth with her. The text says clearly the woman is safe from the FACE of the serpent.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

How can satan possibly not be on the earth when we are already told he was cast unto the earth?
.

The 1000 years are a metaphor, why John cannot determine measure time outside this realm ie time in the pit thus he uses the phrase "1000". But it does equal 3.5 years measured time on earth.

You need it to mean a thousand years in order for your theory to supposedly work, and not that it actually means that. Where do we even see a hint of an angel coming down from heaven in Rev 12 in order to cast satan into the pit? Nowhere, that's where.

[divaD]

Re: The False Prophet

His time to be locked in the pit comes in the future from Rev 12.

Yes, and it would be after verse 17 has been fulfilled.

[ross3421]

Re: The False Prophet

How can satan possibly not be on the earth when we are already told he was cast unto the earth?

.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

So we have two accounts of being cast out. One says "into" the earth, the other "unto". So where was he cast on the earth or beneath? Again where was he thrown down to?

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

I keep reiterating this verse in the hopes it sticks. Again woe unto the inhibitors of the sea! This can only mean the dead so the devil has gone down to the sea, fact. And some point he will also be upon the earth as well. First he goes into the sea then upon the earth.

The heads and horns are PART of Satan himself

Now another important thing to understand is the Satan is comprised of many parts. The heads and horns are part of Satan himself not some past kingdoms. We know they are not kingdoms as they are picture in heaven and upon the dragon. The heads and horns are like your arms and legs. The heads and horns are kings of his spiritual kingdom that will arise and eventually come upon earth as the final kingdom. Thus Satan can be in the pit AND upon earth at the same time in the sense that Satan the father being in the pit while his "other parts" are upon the earth. This is seen in Rev 13.

Where is Satan at the start of Rev 13?

Well he is not in heaven. Is he then on earth watching himself come up from the sea?

How is it that his heads and horns are in the sea and not himself? How did they get into the sea from heaven without him? if the heads and horns were cast into the sea which we are coming up from the sea then so too was Satan cast into the sea!. In addition, we know he is not upon the earth as the he gives power unto this first beast.

If Satan was upon the earth he would be part of the first beast as the case in heaven and not need to give him power and separate from the first beast. Again it is like God giving power from heaven to his son on earth. Likewise Satan giving power to his son from Hell who is upon earth!!!

Where do we even see a hint of an angel coming down from heaven in Rev 12 in order to cast satan into the pit? Nowhere, that's where.

Though it is not stated does not mean it did not happen. After a battle do you not imprison your enemies? Surely The punishment was just not to be thrown to the ground a place where he previously deceived.

[ross3421]

Re: The False Prophet

Can you show us which 450 days it is meaning then?

Yes. Actually I was just able to put these pieces together. I have circled these related passages many times each time getting a clearer picture. It's like doing a puzzle, you separate the pieces into like parts then outline the boarder and then start joining the like parts in an area then having to stop as you can see other more matching. You go to other areas and do the same giving a clearer picture to the prior areas until the picture is complete.

Ok enough of the analogy. I was able to complete the picture of the 450 days last night. So again scripturally "time" is translated to 360, and a season is known to be 90 days.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

First clue

So our first clue is Rev 9 and the 5th trumpet being 150 days in length.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Second clue

Our second clue to the equation is that these plaques will be like a woman in travail, in labor pangs. Now we know when a woman who is in labor her contractions get shorter the closer to birth not to mention more intense. Thus the 6th trumpet must be less than 150 days.

Third clue

Our third clue is Dan 12. The 1260/1290 and 1335 days. Between the 1260 and 1335 day there are 75 days which just so happens to be half of the 150 days of the 5th trumpet and fits the narrative. Thus the 5th trumpet is 150 days in length then the 6th trumpet is 75 days in length. The 7th trumpet is ground zero, 2nd coming. Therefore after the 1260th day the 6 trumpet sounds.

Day 1 --------------- Day 1260 = 6th trumpet ------- 75 days ---------- Day 1335 = 7th trumpet.

Now understanding the pang lengths and 2X factor 75 then 150. We can state the 4th trumpet as 300 days. So we have ……

Trumpet 4 = 300 days
Trumpet 5 = 150 days
Trumpet 6 = 75 days
Trumpet 7 = 0

So do you see the 450 days? So we have.....

Day 1 = Trumpet 1 -----810 days ----4 Trumpet 300 days ----- 5 trumpet 150 Days --------Day 1260 = 6th trumpet ------- 75 days (little season)---------- Day 1335 = 7th trumpet.

So the 6th trumpet is the little season

So now back to our verse.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

So starting with the first trumpet all the beasts are together. Then after 810 days together at the fourth trumpet their dominion is taken away by the fourth beast yet their lives prolonged for 450 days (season and time/4th and 5th seal). Upon the 6th seal the start of the little season Satan then comes up from the pit.

Day 1 --------- 1260 Satan in the pit ie "1000 years" ---------Day 1260 Satan loosened from the pit for a little season ---------Day 1335.


The parallels of the trumpets and Seals

We see the same scenario played out in the seals. The first four seals representing the four beast all on the earth together ruling on earth. Upon the fourth seal we see the fourth king with Hell following at which this little horn assumes power over the kingdom and the other beasts lose their dominion. Then we have the mention of the little season!!!!! Also realized are that the seals and trumpets are parallel, thus seal one is opened and then trumpet one sounds and so on.....

[DurbanDude]

Re: The False Prophet

Does this help us determine chronology then? Obviously the events recorded in Rev 9, in regards to the pit, it is meaning after the pit has already been closed and locked. Obviously in Rev 20, in regards to the pit, it is initially meaning when the pit is closed and locked, then meaning when it is opened once satan is loosed from it.

The question is, is Rev 9 meaning when the pit is reopened after having been locked when the angel locked it after having cast satan into it? One problem with that, when satan is loosed from the pit, he goes out to deceive the nations. When the pit is opened in Rev 9 though, the locusts that emerge are not sent out to deceive the nations, but are instead sent out to torment those that have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

This says...and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. When and where though? Was it given to him once he reached the pit, or was it given to him before he even left heaven?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

This one on the other hand states...having the key of the bottomless pit

I dont think we can prove premill that way, some amills may want to match the rise of Abaddon with Satan's release, but im not sure if that's a universal amil belief.

[divaD]

Re: The False Prophet

I dont think we can prove premill that way, some amills may want to match the rise of Abaddon with Satan's release, but im not sure if that's a universal amil belief.

Not to prove Premil though, but to prove Amil. It's almost as if Amil can be proven like this, except when the pit is opened in Rev 9, it's not opened in order for the occupants inside to then go out and deceive the nations, which is what satan sets out to do once he is released from the pit. It is instead opened so that the occupants inside can go forth and torment those that have not the seal of God in their foreheads. That is not anything satan attempts to do when released, thus not part of his plans, therefore when the pit opens in Rev 9, this is not meaning when the pit reopens in Rev 20.

[ross3421]

Re: The False Prophet

when the pit is opened in Rev 9, it's not opened in order for the occupants inside to then go out and deceive the nations, which is what satan sets out to do once he is released from the pit. It is instead opened so that the occupants inside can go forth and torment those that have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Can they be tormented and both deceived at the same time? Sure.

Do not the evil spirits deceive the world in gathering them for battle? Are not miracles for deception? Sure. Note below is after the 5th trump.

Rev 16
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

(And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do)

Is not this battle below just a repeat of the one in Rev 16? Do we not see a battle with Gog and Magog before the seconding coming? Can this happen twice? Rev 16 says the great day of God, is there another or a greater day some 1000 years later? LOL.

Rev 20
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

[divaD]

Re: The False Prophet

Can they be tormented and both deceived at the same time? Sure.

Do not the evil spirits deceive the world in gathering them for battle? Are not miracles for deception? Sure. Note below is after the 5th trump.

Rev 16
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

(And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do)

Is not this battle below just a repeat of the one in Rev 16? Do we not see a battle with Gog and Magog before the seconding coming? Can this happen twice? Rev 16 says the great day of God, is there another or a greater day some 1000 years later? LOL.

Rev 20
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 16:14 can be explained via Rev 13:1. Rev 13:1 is not meaning Rev 9 though.

If satan can deceive the nations, then not deceive the nations, then once again deceive the nations, then I'm sure there can be a battle before he is bound, and one after he is loosed. Why the former battle would be called the great day of God, and that the latter one wouldn't, that I have no clue. Even though you find the thought of that hilarious, there is not a single one of you who can prove using Rev 12, that satan is bound a thousand years anywhere in that chapter. And that chapter covers at least the past 2000 years, so where does the thousand year binding of satan fit in Rev 12 then?

And if that's not enough, the locusts locked up in the pit in Rev 9 prove that when one is locked up in the pit, they are not also roaming the earth at the same time. Therefore when satan is locked in the pit, the same has to be true for him as well.

[ross3421]

Re: The False Prophet

Rev 16:14 can be explained via Rev 13:1. Rev 13:1 is not meaning Rev 9 though.

there is not a single one of you who can prove using Rev 12, that satan is bound a thousand years anywhere in that chapter. And that chapter covers at least the past 2000 years, so where does the thousand year binding of satan fit in Rev 12 then?

And if that's not enough, the locusts locked up in the pit in Rev 9 prove that when one is locked up in the pit, they are not also roaming the earth at the same time. Therefore when satan is locked in the pit, the same has to be true for him as well.

1000 years is a metaphor! That's why it is not found in Rev 12.

It does represent 3.5 years upon the earth. The woman is protected from the dragon for 3.5 years, why or how? He is in the pit. So for this time he personally cannot deceive the nations but his son can.

Having the 7 heads and 10 horns come up from the (sea) pit proves Satan must also be in the pit as I have previously stated they are part of the dragon himself.

I have given way enough reasons why there cannot be a 1000 literal years. Let's turn to IS 14. Does this happen before or after the 2nd coming?

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

First thing to notice is that where Lucifer is falling from, heaven. So can Lucifer who was kicked out from heaven in Rev 12 then fall from heaven to the pit 1000s of years later?

[boangry]

Re: The False Prophet

That would be my position as well, regardless who abaddon is meaning or not meaning. But even so, nothing states he wasn't imprisoned there either. That, too, is only being assumed. But if abaddon and satan are one and the same, and if abaddon is indeed locked up in the pit until the angel opens the pit in Rev 9, that is Amil, and there would be no way to get around it. Keeping in mind that this is based on all these ifs I brought up, and that they were true.

I don't follow or understand your reasoning here, how does abaddon and Satan being the same person prove that amil is now correct?

I belong in the premil camp at the moment, Yet I believe Satan is abaddon and also he is the beast that comes out of the pit, during the tribulation, I believe he has been in there since the time of the cross, And therefore totally inactive as a person for the last 2000 odd yrs, When he comes out of the pit during the tribulation I see him (the dragon) the beast and the false prophet gathering the kings of the earth to make war and they will gather them to the battle of that great day of God almighty. And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew Armageddon. At the end of this when the Lord comes and destroys them and throws the beast and the fp alive into the LoF an angel also grabs the dragon and throws him back into the pit for a set time, 1000yrs.

This is not the first time nor the last time, you keep trying to say abaddon being Satan proves amil so cant be correct, and you may be right, but I honestly think you are flogging a dead horse, unless of course you explain how so?

[boangry]

Re: The False Prophet

Satan isn't the angel who has the key to the pit. A different angel has that key and imprisons Satan in the pit. Wouldn't make sense if the most evil person in history has the key to his own prison.

Rev 9:1* And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.*

Rev 20:1* And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.*
Rev 20:2* And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,*

I believe the same angel has the key. A star falling and an angel coming down is the same exact thing.

Yep makes sense to me and I of course agree :-)

[boangry]

Re: The False Prophet

Scripture only shows Satan being locked in the pit once. Where is this earlier time?

Well as I quoted before John 12:31

Did you know being the angel of something like a pit does not mean they are imprisoned there?

Maybe, unless we are told the pit is locked for example

Rev_9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.


Let's see how the expression is used elsewhere:

Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Rev_16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

Here we have the "angel of the waters" but the angel doesn't live in the waters or is trapped in the waters. Being the angel of something means they have some type of authority or relationship with the place. Here it is the waters, in the other it is the pit. Being the angel of the pit doesn't mean the angel was imprisoned in the pit but has authority over the things that were imprisoned in the pit. How I see it is the pit is opened and the angel of the pit enters, possibly leading these evil things out. I believe this angel is Satan, called two names there but Satan isn't imprisoned in the pit until just prior to the 1000 years, so here in the 5th trumpet is long before the 1000 years. So, Apollyon (who I believe is another name of satan) isn't called the angel of the pit because he is imprisoned there but because he is the leader of the evil things that were imprisoned there.


So, being an angel "of" a place doesn't mean they live or are imprisoned there.

Sure I understand how you can see this, I suppose we can agree to disagree here, as I don't see the sea as a place of confinement I don't really agree that its comparing apples with apples. And besides we don't rely on one example anyway, its got to align with the rest of scripture, as I already see that the strong man is bound it aligns with how I see things.

[divaD]

Re: The False Prophet

Well as I quoted before John 12:31

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

How then would you explain the following?

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



And look where he is cast out to...he was cast out into the earth. So maybe in John 12:31 it is meaning Revelation 12:9? And if so, none of it would have anything to do with satan being bound in the pit a thousand years.

satan would be the prince of this world even while he still has access to heaven, therefore it's not required that he has to be present on this planet in order to be the prince of this world. The question then remains this...is he being cast out of the earth in John 12:31, or is he being cast out of heaven in that verse?

[boangry]

Re: The False Prophet

1000 years is a metaphor! That's why it is not found in Rev 12.

It does represent 3.5 years upon the earth. The woman is protected from the dragon for 3.5 years, why or how? He is in the pit. So for this time he personally cannot deceive the nations but his son can.

Having the 7 heads and 10 horns come up from the (sea) pit proves Satan must also be in the pit as I have previously stated they are part of the dragon himself.

I have given way enough reasons why there cannot be a 1000 literal years. Let's turn to IS 14. Does this happen before or after the 2nd coming?

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

First thing to notice is that where Lucifer is falling from, heaven. So can Lucifer who was kicked out from heaven in Rev 12 then fall from heaven to the pit 1000s of years later?

Satan is cast down to the earth, woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea, (people do live at and inhabit the sea) For the devil has come down to you and Satan has great wrath for he knows his time is short, Now when the dragon saw he had been cast to earth he persecuted the woman that gave birth to the male child. :notice the come down to you, who is the you? the inhabitants ...



It cant be the pit here, he is on earth and he is persecuting Israel, I agree when Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven they could have been placed in the pit or the LOF and deservedly so, and they will be, but God uses them for His own purposes, and that is on earth, we have been foretold this would happen, God sent serpents amongst Israel to bite and torment them, and for what purpose? So they would look to the brass serpent lifted up on a pole and live, The same thing here, God sent them down to torment Israel so they would look to their Messiah and live, He was lifted up at the first coming and though the nation did not look and live, a lot of individuals did and do, God momentarily abandoned is prophesied plan with the nation Israel, so now setting everything aside during this time, the watch with the 69th seven countdown has been paused, but God will once again resume his prophetic plan and complete the 70weeks prophesised for Israel, hence the serpents will once again be released amongst Israel, to drive them to once again look up at the one lifted up on the pole, and when they do see Him whom they pierced they will look and they will live.