The False Prophet

[divaD]

Re: The False Prophet

I don't follow or understand your reasoning here, how does abaddon and Satan being the same person prove that amil is now correct?

I belong in the premil camp at the moment, Yet I believe Satan is abaddon and also he is the beast that comes out of the pit, during the tribulation, I believe he has been in there since the time of the cross, And therefore totally inactive as a person for the last 2000 odd yrs, When he comes out of the pit during the tribulation I see him (the dragon) the beast and the false prophet gathering the kings of the earth to make war and they will gather them to the battle of that great day of God almighty. And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew Armageddon. At the end of this when the Lord comes and destroys them and throws the beast and the fp alive into the LoF an angel also grabs the dragon and throws him back into the pit for a set time, 1000yrs.

This is not the first time nor the last time, you keep trying to say abaddon being Satan proves amil so cant be correct, and you may be right, but I honestly think you are flogging a dead horse, unless of course you explain how so?

But I already explained why when I stated this..."But if abaddon and satan are one and the same, and if abaddon is indeed locked up in the pit until the angel opens the pit in Rev 9, that is Amil".

So why is it Amil if that were true? Because in order for abaddon to be locked in the pit to begin with, assuming he is satan, someone had to have cast him in there then locked the pit once he was secured inside. The only place we see any such thing as that is in Rev 20:1-3. The fact Rev 9 clearly occurs in this age before the 2nd coming, that would have to mean the same has to be true of Rev 20:1-3 if abaddon is locked inside the pit, and that abaddon is satan.

[boangry]

Re: The False Prophet

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

How then would you explain the following?

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



And look where he is cast out to...he was cast out into the earth. So maybe in John 12:31 it is meaning Revelation 12:9?

satan would be the prince of this world even while he still has access to heaven, therefore it's not required that he has to be present on this planet in order to be the prince of this world. The question then remains this...is he being cast out of the earth in John 12:31, or is he being cast out of heaven in that verse?

And if so, none of it would have anything to do with satan being bound in the pit a thousand years.

Again lol, I have to ask why if its Satan put into the pit(even if I think its a different time and totally unrelated to the millennium) does it equal a 1000yrs I think im missing something of momentous importance here, or like an old record that is stuck on the same spot, your calculator keeps spitting out the same answer for different equations and that is Satan is bound for 1000yrs and released after the millennium, therefore any mention of the pit + Satan = millennium = no alternatives accepted or presented please

[divaD]

Re: The False Prophet

Satan is cast down to the earth, woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea, (people do live at and inhabit the sea) For the devil has come down to you and Satan has great wrath for he knows his time is short, Now when the dragon saw he had been cast to earth he persecuted the woman that gave birth to the male child. :notice the come down to you, who is the you? the inhabitants ...



It cant be the pit here, he is on earth and he is persecuting Israel, I agree when Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven they could have been placed in the pit or the LOF and deservedly so, and they will be, but God uses them for His own purposes, and that is on earth, we have been foretold this would happen, God sent serpents amongst Israel to bite and torment them, and for what purpose? So they would look to the brass serpent lifted up on a pole and live, The same thing here, God sent them down to torment Israel so they would look to their Messiah and live, He was lifted up at the first coming and though the nation did not look and live, a lot of individuals did and do, God momentarily abandoned is prophesied plan with the nation Israel, so now setting everything aside during this time, the watch with the 69th seven countdown has been paused, but God will once again resume his prophetic plan and complete the 70weeks prophesised for Israel, hence the serpents will once again be released amongst Israel, to drive them to once again look up at the one lifted up on the pole, and when they do see Him whom they pierced they will look and they will live.

Going by what you submitted here, where does this leave any room for satan to be cast into the pit before the GT? Before he gets cast to the earth he still had access to heaven, so he couldn't have been in the pit then. And you just indicated that when he is cast to the earth this is not the pit, yet somehow you think satan is cast into the pit prior to the GT. Show that in Rev 12 then. That ch covers at least the past 2000 years and probably then some.

[boangry]

Re: The False Prophet

But I already explained why when I stated this..."But if abaddon and satan are one and the same, and if abaddon is indeed locked up in the pit until the angel opens the pit in Rev 9, that is Amil".

So why is it Amil if that were true? Because in order for abaddon to be locked in the pit to begin with, assuming he is satan, someone had to have cast him in there then locked the pit once he was secured inside. The only place we see any such thing as that is in Rev 20:1-3. The fact Rev 9 clearly occurs in this age before the 2nd coming, that would have to mean the same has to be true of Rev 20:1-3 if abaddon is locked inside the pit, and that abaddon is satan.

The bolded bit here, I agree Rev 9 occurs before the 2nd coming, but disagree that it has to mean the same to be true of Rev 20:1-3, just because its abaddon aka Satan. Why cant the Lord come twice(it confused even the disciples) why cant Satan be released twice?

When the Lord came he came to plunder the house of the strongman, strongman = Satan, He first bound the strongman to plunder his goods. Goods = believers. Yet we know he is in the tribulation accounts so we can conclude he has been unbound?

[divaD]

Re: The False Prophet

Again lol, I have to ask why if its Satan put into the pit(even if I think its a different time and totally unrelated to the millennium) does it equal a 1000yrs I think im missing something of momentous importance here, or like an old record that is stuck on the same spot, your calculator keeps spitting out the same answer for different equations and that is Satan is bound for 1000yrs and released after the millennium, therefore any mention of the pit + Satan = millennium = no alternatives accepted or presented please

satan is only in the pit one time, that being during the thousand years. That means the chronology would be this since the time of the fall of man...satan is initially not in the pit....satan is in the pit, a thousand years according to Rev 20....satan is no longer in the pit...satan is then eventually cast into the LOF. That's it, satan isn't in and out of the pit multiple times, he is only out then in and then out, one time.

[ross3421]

Re: The False Prophet

Question for those on this thread...…..

1. Where is Satan located at the start of Rev 13?

Note is it possible for Satan to be on earth when his heads and horns are coming up from the sea?

2. When is Lucifer cast into the pit in Isaiah 14? Before or after the second coming?

Notice that in the chapter Lucifer falls from heaven which we also see a place being kicked out of in Rev 12 before the second coming. So then is it possible for him to go back into heaven 1000 years later to be cast out?

As if you say Is 14 is before then that proves AMIL. If you say after then somehow Satan has to be let back into heaven a place where he was kicked out...….

[ewq1938]

Re: The False Prophet

It does represent 3.5 years upon the earth.

That's absolutely impossible. Apart from the nonsensical idea that a thousand years represents only 3.5 years, the 3.5 years is when Satan has an empire and world leader rule over the world and persecute and kill Christians. The thousand years is when Satan is imprisoned and his global empire and ruler are cast into the LOF. What you claim goes completely against everything known from scripture on this. It's astounding that anyone could get things so backwards. The thousand years is the complete opposite of the 3.5 years and it is a thousand years not a handful of years.

[ewq1938]

Re: The False Prophet

Because in order for abaddon to be locked in the pit to begin with

Well, he wasn't locked in the pit so that means if it is Satan by another name, it doesn't affect Premill at all. Also, I see no evidence that fallen angels locked in the pit are ever released before the GWTJ timeframe when they enter the LOF with Satan. They are said to be held in Tartaroo which is a compartment of Hades, and I believe Hades in the pit so even if the pit is opened, not all places inside of it are opened.


2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5020

5020 tartaroo {tar-tar-o'-o}

from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades);; v

AV - cast down to hell 1; 1

1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by
the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer
punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

[ewq1938]

Re: The False Prophet

satan is only in the pit one time, that being during the thousand years.

He could have gone into the pit in Rev 9 though. He is only locked in the pit once but that doesn't forbid him going there when it's open.

[ewq1938]

Re: The False Prophet

satan is only in the pit one time, that being during the thousand years. That means the chronology would be this since the time of the fall of man...satan is initially not in the pit....satan is in the pit, a thousand years according to Rev 20....satan is no longer in the pit...satan is then eventually cast into the LOF. That's it, satan isn't in and out of the pit multiple times, he is only out then in and then out, one time.

Also, notice that the pit is not opened in Rev 20...it is only said to be locked so that means the pit had been open ever since Rev 9 so why wouldn't Satan use that as a "base" of some kind...going in and out with his demons etc. I believe this is why it says the beast ascends out of the pit that this means when the events of Rev 13 begin so the beast was waiting in the pit for the right time to emerge....and then the pit is still open through t5he entire GT only being locked when Satan is cast into it.

Rev 20:1* And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.*
Rev 20:2* And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,*
Rev 20:3* And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.*

No opening of the pit described here.

[divaD]

Re: The False Prophet

He could have gone into the pit in Rev 9 though. He is only locked in the pit once but that doesn't forbid him going there when it's open.

I don't find what you are meaning to be an issue, thus perfectly logical what you conclude. But what you are meaning is not what I was meaning. I'm meaning as in locked up in the pit, then loosed from the pit, then locked up again in the pit, then loosed from the pit again. satan is only locked in the pit one time, that being for a thousand years. That means before the thousand years and after the thousand years, he is never locked up in the pit one single time. So that means if, keeping in mind the 'if', abadddon has been locked in the pit when it is initially opened in Rev 9, and that abaddon is satan, this would undeniably prove Amil.

[divaD]

Re: The False Prophet

Well, he wasn't locked in the pit so that means if it is Satan by another name, it doesn't affect Premill at all. Also, I see no evidence that fallen angels locked in the pit are ever released before the GWTJ timeframe when they enter the LOF with Satan. They are said to be held in Tartaroo which is a compartment of Hades, and I believe Hades in the pit so even if the pit is opened, not all places inside of it are opened.


2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5020

5020 tartaroo {tar-tar-o'-o}

from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades);; v

AV - cast down to hell 1; 1

1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by
the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer
punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

But some not only think abaddon is satan, but that abaddon had been locked in the pit prior to it being opened in Rev 9. That would be Amil in that case since this couldn't work with Premil. But since you don't conclude that abaddon has been locked in the pit to begin with, and even if he was satan....just like you indicated, this wouldn't affect Premil. It would only affect Premil if abaddon was locked up in the pit when it got opened in Rev 9.

[ewq1938]

Re: The False Prophet

I don't find what you are meaning to be an issue, thus perfectly logical what you conclude. But what you are meaning is not what I was meaning. I'm meaning as in locked up in the pit, then loosed from the pit, then locked up again in the pit, then loosed from the pit again.

Yes I know that is what you are talking about but even that doesn't "prove Amil".

satan is only locked in the pit one time, that being for a thousand years.

I agree but being locked up more than once but not mentioned is not an issue either IMO.

That means before the thousand years and after the thousand years, he is never locked up in the pit one single time. So that means if, keeping in mind the 'if', abadddon has been locked in the pit when it is initially opened in Rev 9, and that abaddon is satan, this would undeniably prove Amil.

Amil means Christ returns after the thousand years. So whether Satan is Abaddon or not or locked in the pit twice doesn't make Christ return after the thousand years. Therefore, no, it cannot be something that proves Amil right whether it's Satan or not or locked in the pit or not. This is only a small branch of Amil, not the core doctrine, that could be right or wrong but Amil as a whole is centered on when Christ returns and so is premil.

So, if Satan is Abaddon, it doesn't affect Amil or Premil.
If Satan is locked in the pit twice, it doesn't affect Amil or Premil.

The only thing that would aid Amil is if there was a way to make Rev 9 and Rev 20 the same exact timeframe, which is textually impossible because they happen at vastly different time periods.

[ewq1938]

Re: The False Prophet

But some not only think abaddon is satan, but that abaddon had been locked in the pit prior to it being opened in Rev 9. That would be Amil in that case since this couldn't work with Premil. But since you don't conclude that abaddon has been locked in the pit to begin with, and even if he was satan....just like you indicated, this wouldn't affect Premil. It would only affect Premil if abaddon was locked up in the pit when it got opened in Rev 9.

Like I said, that doesn't affect premill. How many times Satan is locked in a pit is irrelevant. It only matters that Rev 9 happens before the GT, and Rev 20 happens after it. Amil needs to make Satan's release from the pit and Satan's little season after the thousand years into the GT of 42 months thus they invent a second coming in Rev 20 where none is written and that allows then a return of Christ and an immediate transition into the GWTJ as per Amil beliefs.

[boangry]

Re: The False Prophet

satan is only in the pit one time, that being during the thousand years. That means the chronology would be this since the time of the fall of man...satan is initially not in the pit....satan is in the pit, a thousand years according to Rev 20....satan is no longer in the pit...satan is then eventually cast into the LOF. That's it, satan isn't in and out of the pit multiple times, he is only out then in and then out, one time.

This is how I see what your trying to say, You are telling me that Rev 20 says this

20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and for the first time he's ever been bound, bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit for the very first time, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while, which is the one and only time he will come out of the pit.

Which is adding what your doctrine is to how you understand this passage.

And while reading this verse in isolation it may support your interpretation, it does not conclusively say what your saying. I simply read it as this,

20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Just to note the traditional Amil view reads and interprets the verse exactly as you do, that is why they think the 1000yrs is now, they understood Satan is in the pit in regards to other scripture and wrongly apply this verse to them, So your view more lines up with Amil than my view does, Im more premil than you...

Like I said, that doesn't affect premill. How many times Satan is locked in a pit is irrelevant. It only matters that Rev 9 happens before the GT, and Rev 20 happens after it. Amil needs to make Satan's release from the pit and Satan's little season after the thousand years into the GT of 42 months thus they invent a second coming in Rev 20 where none is written and that allows then a return of Christ and an immediate transition into the GWTJ as per Amil beliefs.

Nice way of summarising it, thank you.