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  • Re: The False Prophet

    Originally posted by boangry View Post
    This is how I see what your trying to say, You are telling me that Rev 20 says this

    20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and for the first time he's ever been bound, bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit for the very first time, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while, which is the one and only time he will come out of the pit.

    Which is adding what your doctrine is to how you understand this passage.
    That is pretty much the way I see it except for the things you neglected to include, which I have underlined below.

    Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven after the 2nd coming, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and for the first time he's ever been bound in the bottomless pit, bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit for the very first time, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while, which is the one and only time he will come out of the pit.

    How am I adding my doctrine to the text? What Premil does not agree all of Rev 20:1-3 is meaning post the 2nd coming?

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    • Re: The False Prophet

      Originally posted by divaD View Post
      That is pretty much the way I see it except for the things you neglected to include, which I have underlined below.

      Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven after the 2nd coming, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and for the first time he's ever been bound in the bottomless pit, bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit for the very first time, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while, which is the one and only time he will come out of the pit.

      How am I adding my doctrine to the text? What Premil does not agree all of Rev 20:1-3 is meaning post the 2nd coming?
      It's the "and for the first time he's ever been bound" and "which is the one and only time he will come out of the pit" which are unneeded and may be true but also do not need to be true...as I said before, the only important part here is that all of this is after the GT, naturally which also means after second coming.
      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

      Comment


      • Re: The False Prophet

        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
        It's the "and for the first time he's ever been bound" and "which is the one and only time he will come out of the pit" which are unneeded and may be true but also do not need to be true...as I said before, the only important part here is that all of this is after the GT, naturally which also means after second coming.
        Notice that I indicated bound in the bottomless pit, and not bound in general, such as in a spiritual sense. Maybe Amil believes that being bound in the BP is meaning in a spiritual sense, but I see no reason to believe that since Rev 9 proves anyone bound in the pit is not meaning in a spiritual sense.

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        • Re: The False Prophet

          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
          the only important part here is that all of this is after the GT, naturally which also means after second coming.
          I agree, so why don't Amils agree all of this is after the GT? Why do they think all of it is before the GT instead?

          Comment


          • Re: The False Prophet

            Originally posted by divaD View Post
            Going by what you submitted here, where does this leave any room for satan to be cast into the pit before the GT? Before he gets cast to the earth he still had access to heaven, so he couldn't have been in the pit then. And you just indicated that when he is cast to the earth this is not the pit, yet somehow you think satan is cast into the pit prior to the GT. Show that in Rev 12 then. That ch covers at least the past 2000 years and probably then some.
            I have a long answer and a short answer, ill just give the short answer.

            I see the war in heaven as one event, I see 1/3 of the angels following Satan in his rebellion, I don't see the 1/3 of the angels falling before creation, and another 1/3 at Gen 6, and another 1/3 during the tribulation period, but I see one war and one fall.

            When God stepped out of heaven and became a man, the one who declared us unworthy(while right) showed no faith and belief in Jesus, and ascended to heaven to take the throne and one third of those who are watching the grand theme of redemption from heaven side with Satan, they cross over the line so to speak and in doing so they make their eternal choice and deny the Lord Jesus.

            So the account of the war in heaven gives us to accounts in the same chapter, those who read the bible are more than use to this method and description of things, read Genesis for example it trains us to read the account from one perspective, then goes back over the same thing and explains the same event in more detail, for example how Eve was formed, critics of the bible have tried to use these verses as contradictions, yet believers see it as opening our eyes to the harmony of scripture, throughout the gospel accounts we have really good examples of the same thing happening.

            Hence in Rev 12, we have one account give the timing while the other is silent on the timing, so we can combine them for the complete picture. This does not mean there are two wars or two accounts of the 1/3 angels leaving heaven.

            So the timing is here, And another sign appeared in heaven: behold a great fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her child as soon as it was born.

            The timing is given here as after Israel(Mary) got with child(So the third heaven was vacated by God) and as soon as the child was born which must then mean before Bethlehem, and the children under two being killed, again this lines up with verse 13, now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.

            So we have more detail that Israel were persecuted by Satan and his angels/demons after they were cast to the earth.

            So to answer your first question
            where does this leave any room for satan to be cast into the pit before the GT?
            I believe REV 12 is concerning Israel and explains for us whats hidden in the heavens and gives a timeframe for us of the 70 weeks of Daniel, so I don't believe it mentions or refers to the mystery that is the church, in fact on a timeline I would leave the church totally off it, so on my timeline at the cross where the Lord is cut off at the end of the 69th week, I would continue or commence from the 70th week after the church has departed, which of course for us is still future and we see the Man of sin is now revealed, so basically 2000yrs are not even taken into account and one wont see the gap period on Daniels timeline. When Satan and the demons are released, as far as prophecy and Israel are concerned it will be like them resuming from where they left off.

            So in other words, if there was no Church age there would be no need for Satan to be bound, he would continue doing what he was doing since the birth of Christ, the cross and the ascension and His return 7 years later(likewise for the fallen angels)

            But since there is the Church age, we now have a totally new programme introduced by God, so we need to temporally halt the tribulation from happening, from Gods wrath and judgment being poured out upon the earth, Israel's kingdom from being set up as promise, and to do all this is simple we can just cast Satan and the demons out until we are ready to resume the plan, and then we will bring em back and they can continue for the short time allotted to them.

            So I hope this answers this question, the room is right up until the cross that Satan could be cast into the pit And I think this is as john 12:31 tells us or as John 16 says, the Holy spirit will come and convict the world of sin etc etc and of judgment for the ruler of this world is judged.

            Comment


            • Re: The False Prophet

              Originally posted by divaD View Post
              Notice that I indicated bound in the bottomless pit, and not bound in general, such as in a spiritual sense. Maybe Amil believes that being bound in the BP is meaning in a spiritual sense, but I see no reason to believe that since Rev 9 proves anyone bound in the pit is not meaning in a spiritual sense.
              Ill admit near all of Christianity in the last 100yrs have moved towards the view that Satan and his horde are still about doing who knows what, I think it has something to do with the world wars and of course Catholicism were proponents before this but I don't count them, And lately even Amil have softened their stance from Satan being totally bound and in the pit, to maybe he just has less power now and hes allowed to venture so far out of the pit to make the really bad person sin.

              But are you sure you are not really an amil in disguise, I mean you hold so adherently to their traditional view of how they see rev 20 as one and the same as rev 9 that if you did come to see Satan was in the pit before the second coming that you would have to switch to amil and then deny the 1000yr period that is to follow etc etc which I don't think you will ever do, so instead any hint at all from any one that the timings may be different is hands over the ears and lalalalalalalalalalalala

              Comment


              • Re: The False Prophet

                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                I agree, so why don't Amils agree all of this is after the GT? Why do they think all of it is before the GT instead?
                Because as Amil's they believe the thousand years is now and the whole chain and pit part is just Satan on a long chain like a dog is (which doesn't match the text), and that Satan will be freed and the little season is the GT, then Christ returns as "fire" and kills everyone and then judgement day happens. There are some who differ on some of those things but this is a common belief among those I have read and talked to. Sometimes people say the thousand years is the GT and some mix the thousand years and little season after as basically the same time period, or some say the thousand years is actually over and we live in the little season...depends on the person
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • Re: The False Prophet

                  Here is a question for Amils, especially Marty, if he cares to even answer.

                  Revelation 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.


                  Do you take this in a spiritual sense, or a literal sense? By literal I'm not meaning literal locusts, but that these are literally demons of some kind, and that they have been literally confined in the BP until the BP is opened, thus they are then unleashed upon the earth? How ever you interpret this you must interpret satan's binding in the BP in the same manner. Because satan is cast into this very same pit. And if these locusts can't literally get out until the pit is opened, then neither can satan literally get out until the pit is opened after he has been locked up in it first.

                  Comment


                  • Re: The False Prophet

                    Originally posted by divaD View Post
                    Notice that I indicated bound in the bottomless pit, and not bound in general, such as in a spiritual sense. Maybe Amil believes that being bound in the BP is meaning in a spiritual sense, but I see no reason to believe that since Rev 9 proves anyone bound in the pit is not meaning in a spiritual sense.
                    You have not responded to my latest posts??? Can you not answer?

                    2. When is Lucifer cast into the pit in Isaiah 14? Before or after the second coming?

                    Notice that in the chapter Lucifer falls from heaven which we also see a place being kicked out of in Rev 12 before the second coming. So then is it possible for him to go back into heaven 1000 years later to be cast out?

                    As if you say Is 14 is before then that proves AMIL. If you say after then somehow Satan has to be let back into heaven a place where he was kicked out...….

                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                    It's the "and for the first time he's ever been bound" and "which is the one and only time he will come out of the pit" which are unneeded and may be true but also do not need to be true...as I said before, the only important part here is that all of this is after the GT, naturally which also means after second coming.
                    same to you...... Can you not answer?

                    2. When is Lucifer cast into the pit in Isaiah 14? Before or after the second coming?

                    Notice that in the chapter Lucifer falls from heaven which we also see a place being kicked out of in Rev 12 before the second coming. So then is it possible for him to go back into heaven 1000 years later to be cast out?

                    As if you say Is 14 is before then that proves AMIL. If you say after then somehow Satan has to be let back into heaven a place where he was kicked out...….

                    Comment


                    • Re: The False Prophet

                      Originally posted by boangry View Post
                      Ill admit near all of Christianity in the last 100yrs have moved towards the view that Satan and his horde are still about doing who knows what, I think it has something to do with the world wars and of course Catholicism were proponents before this but I don't count them, And lately even Amil have softened their stance from Satan being totally bound and in the pit, to maybe he just has less power now and hes allowed to venture so far out of the pit to make the really bad person sin.

                      But are you sure you are not really an amil in disguise, I mean you hold so adherently to their traditional view of how they see rev 20 as one and the same as rev 9 that if you did come to see Satan was in the pit before the second coming that you would have to switch to amil and then deny the 1000yr period that is to follow etc etc which I don't think you will ever do, so instead any hint at all from any one that the timings may be different is hands over the ears and lalalalalalalalalalalala
                      When it comes to satan being bound, he can for sure be bound in this age, multiple times even, but only in a spiritual sense. Such as what Jesus was meaning in Matthew 12:29 when He was casting out devils. This is not the same as him being bound in the BP. satan is only bound there one time, and it is for a thousand years. There are no other times before the thousand years nor after the thousand years, where he is ever bound in the BP.

                      Comment


                      • Re: The False Prophet

                        Originally posted by divaD View Post
                        Here is a question for Amils, especially Marty, if he cares to even answer.

                        Revelation 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.


                        How ever you interpret this you must interpret satan's binding in the BP in the same manner. Because satan is cast into this very same pit. And if these locusts can't literally get out until the pit is opened, then neither can satan literally get out until the pit is opened after he has been locked up in it first.
                        So what is the issue?

                        Comment


                        • Re: The False Prophet

                          Originally posted by divaD View Post
                          When it comes to satan being bound, he can for sure be bound in this age, multiple times even, but only in a spiritual sense. Such as what Jesus was meaning in Matthew 12:29 when He was casting out devils. This is not the same as him being bound in the BP. satan is only bound there one time, and it is for a thousand years. There are no other times before the thousand years nor after the thousand years, where he is ever bound in the BP.
                          Isaiah 14? I also say Rev 12 but you disagreed already.

                          But still did not answer this question either...

                          1. Where is Satan located at the start of Rev 13?

                          Note is it possible for Satan to be on earth when his heads and horns are coming up from the sea?

                          Comment


                          • Re: The False Prophet

                            Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                            2. When is Lucifer cast into the pit in Isaiah 14? Before or after the second coming?
                            After. That is what causes his fall from the height of his power.

                            Notice that in the chapter Lucifer falls from heaven which we also see a place being kicked out of in Rev 12 before the second coming.
                            He is not in heaven in the passage. It's all about his desires, what he says in his heart, to be exalted in heaven and his throne above the stars etc etc but that doesn't happen. The best he achieves is being a false God on Earth and then Christ returns and throws him into the pit.
                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                            Comment


                            • Re: The False Prophet

                              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                              You have not responded to my latest posts??? Can you not answer?

                              2. When is Lucifer cast into the pit in Isaiah 14? Before or after the second coming?

                              Notice that in the chapter Lucifer falls from heaven which we also see a place being kicked out of in Rev 12 before the second coming. So then is it possible for him to go back into heaven 1000 years later to be cast out?

                              As if you say Is 14 is before then that proves AMIL. If you say after then somehow Satan has to be let back into heaven a place where he was kicked out....



                              You have not responded to my latest posts??? Can you not answer?

                              2. When is Lucifer cast into the pit in Isaiah 14? Before or after the second coming?

                              Notice that in the chapter Lucifer falls from heaven which we also see a place being kicked out of in Rev 12 before the second coming. So then is it possible for him to go back into heaven 1000 years later to be cast out?

                              As if you say Is 14 is before then that proves AMIL. If you say after then somehow Satan has to be let back into heaven a place where he was kicked out....
                              I was actually contemplating addressing this earlier when I initially saw this, but at the time I didn't have much of an answer, Still don't. One reason why, is because you are assuming everyone is interpreting what's in Isaiah 14 exactly like you are. But that's not necessarily the case. How then can someone answer this on your terms, when your terms assume that one agrees with how you are interpreting it, and because of that, depending on how one answers, if one answers this way, it means this, and if one answer it another way, it means that?

                              As to me I don't even take those things in a literal sense, where anyone is literally ascending to heaven or higher. I simply see it being connected with 2 Thess 2 4, for one.

                              Comment


                              • Re: The False Prophet

                                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                                After. That is what causes his fall from the height of his power.

                                He is not in heaven in the passage. It's all about his desires, what he says in his heart, to be exalted in heaven and his throne above the stars etc etc but that doesn't happen. The best he achieves is being a false God on Earth and then Christ returns and throws him into the pit.
                                C'mon your being ridiculous! How can you even read the scriptures and discern what is truth with that kind of statement.....

                                12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
                                13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
                                14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
                                15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

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