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  • Originally posted by divaD View Post
    Re: The False Prophet




    This right here makes my point. If the war is still future with 3.5 years remaining after it happens, what would that obviously mean? It would mean since the creation of man up until this future war, satan would still have access to heaven. satan can't be bound in the pit while he still has access to heaven. So this would mean since the creation of man up until this future war, there would be at least 6000 years that he has continual access to heaven before getting kicked out unto the earth. In order for him to even emerge from the bp, an angel has to first come down from heaven in order to cast him into it for a thousand years. But if he still has access to heaven before he is cast to the earth, then only 3.5 years remaining once he is cast unto the earth, how could he have possibly been in the pit before this final 3.5 years? The pit is not in heaven. The pit is obviously in the earth. We're told the beast ascends from it. Ascend means up, so that means the beast is below the surface of the earth in order to ascend.
    I'm not sure of what ross is arguing, but one thing I know for sure is that Satan is not yet in the pit. How can he, when scripture says he's going about seeking who he may devour (1 Peter 5:8)?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post

      Hi Trivalee,

      I agree that Satan is not the beast (Rev 13:4 confirms two entities). I also agree that the symbol of beast denotes a king, kingdom or individual that subjugate Israel.

      However I see nothing that precludes the beast from being a demon king. Daniel 10 confirms regional demon kings do exist.

      The beast comes up from the pit just like the demon king Apollyon, and like Satan will do at the end of the 1000 years, indicating that it's location is that of demons, being in that bottomless pit.

      In addition in Dan 7:17 there are only 4 kings associated with 4 entire kingdoms, not 50 or 100 human kings. This points to demon kings, not human kings, because there are no 4 human kings that can be especially identified with 4 kingdoms lasting thousands of years.

      Have you any verse that would indicate otherwise?
      Unfortunately, you failed to cite the verse in Dan 10 that you referred to. With reference to the rest of your remarks, I will say that where scripture did not qualify a demon as a "beast" it makes no sense to assume it is. For example, Abaddon/Apollyon is clearly described as a beast in Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

      However, I don't see the word 'beast' in Dan 7:17. If I'm wrong please correct me. I went on further to explain that a beast must at some point (if not always) manifest in human form. This will be the case when Abaddon, the angel of the bottomless pit kills the Two Witnesses!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by boangry View Post
        I guess one of the differences between our views would be whether Satan took on the form of a man, My view sees Satan not only as a man, but as ruling over men or kingdoms, and being the prince of this world, I see Satan as entering Judas and the Lord commanding them to do quickly what they were about to do, (the reason the Lord used Satan to accomplish this could be that Judas was weak and liable to not lead the mob to the Lord.
        Satan influencing a human to do his bidding is not the same as Satan himself taking on or appearing in human form. The AC and his False Prophet will be humans that can be touched, however, there is no account of satan ever appearing as a human being. Therefore, I find it hard to justify your claim that Satan took on the form of a man because he never did.

        Also there are numerous verses that tie in the world rulers or kings with descriptions of Satan for example

        Eze 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

        Eze 28:12-13a Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God.

        Again, Ive always said there is a distinction between the beasts, As to the identity of them your position is duly noted, but this is what I see when I look at your position.

        The Man of sin (the Antichrist) according to 2thes 2 comes with the working of Satan, with all power, signs and lying wonders.

        The first beast comes with the working of the second beast, with all power signs and false miracles, and deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs.

        So I see that your making your false prophet perform exactly the same work and role as I see Satan does, yet I simply make scripture harmonise and conclude it is Satan.

        To me this makes sense because Jesus the son of God, is the Christ and also the prophet that is to come in likeness to Moses, that He is the Christ and the Prophet.

        I see the man of sin as His nemesis so to speak, he is the Antichrist and false prophet.

        When Moses was sent by God to tell the people to follow him out of Egypt, Moses said to God they will not listen to me, God said to Moses perform these signs and they will believe I sent you because of the signs . It is a dual purpose role provided by God.
        In 2 Thess 2:9 & Rev 13:4 scripture says the beast "antichrist" receives power from Satan, thereby making him distinct from Satan. Regarding the False Prophet, Rev 13:12 says he, himself received power from the first beast (AC). Satan did not in any way manifest in human form. If you cannot understand what is written in plain language in scripture, you have a lot of studying to do.

        I see your position also has three beasts, the Antichrist and the false prophet and Abaddon who comes up out of the pit, I personally see more problems with abaddon being the third beast than solutions, I presume most people see him as the angel who destroys the first born in Egypt, yet this seems to be all that is said about him if he is a separate entity.

        At least If I view him as Satan, I see elaborate detail about what he did throughout the old testament and the new, (hence the description in both Hebrew and Greek) that he was cast out of the world, or that he was bound, that he caused a war in heaven and was king of the 1/3 angels, That he played a role with the fall of man and death entering our world, That he will be put in the pit etc etc I mean to me it makes sense that Satan is attributed the description of the destroyer.

        Yet when I try and comprehend it from your viewpoint, that he is another king of the demons, what can I conclude from scripture, that he destroyed the firstborn in Egypt, and after he ascends and makes war against the two witnesses is that it? what did he do that he ended up in the pit, when and how did he get put in there, who are the demons in there with him?


        I get why you think this, from a human perspective it seems far fetched, so what can I say? Yet I still think with the word breath being used means scripture is indicating being given a spirit, In the same sense Adam was given breath, so the image built of the AC is given breath. rightly or wrongly im not going to discount it if I think it is what is being conveyed in the bible.

        Just a question so I can understand your view a wee bit better, when you have the beast and FP thrown alive into the lake of fire, do you see the beast as abaddon?

        Also If I can requote this,

        Would not most people say Satan rather than abaddon would fit your description of a beast or are you meaning just till Rev 13?
        Looks like you and I are singing from different hymn books because I have no idea where the "3 beats" you are talking about comes from? There are only 2 beats in Rev 13. I only mentioned Abaddon as the beast that kills the 2Ws. Also, Abaddon is Satan's agent, so where in the Bible did you read that he killed the firstborn of Egypt? That particular deed was by an angel of God.

        In Rev 17:8 we are told Abaddon went into perdition. That's the last account we have of him and his destruction occur long before the return of Christ when the AC+FP are cast into the lake of fire. I'm trying to help you - Satan did not manifest as a human in scripture.



        Comment


        • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

          Unfortunately, you failed to cite the verse in Dan 10 that you referred to. With reference to the rest of your remarks, I will say that where scripture did not qualify a demon as a "beast" it makes no sense to assume it is. For example, Abaddon/Apollyon is clearly described as a beast in Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

          However, I don't see the word 'beast' in Dan 7:17. If I'm wrong please correct me. I went on further to explain that a beast must at some point (if not always) manifest in human form. This will be the case when Abaddon, the angel of the bottomless pit kills the Two Witnesses!
          You seem to associate the beast with the demon Abaddon, yet deny beasts can be demons. Do I understand you correctly?

          Dan 7:17 does mention beasts:
          These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, shall arise out of the earth.

          It doesn't say if those beasts/kings are human kings or demon kings, but being just 4 kings relating to 4 kingdoms, instead of 50+ human kings, there is some logic to my position.

          In addition the first beast , the lion with wings is a symbol of the Babylonian demon Lamassu, and the bear is a symbol of the Persian demon Dobiel. Demon kings is certainly something to consider when understanding symbolic beasts.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

            Satan influencing a human to do his bidding is not the same as Satan himself taking on or appearing in human form. The AC and his False Prophet will be humans that can be touched, however, there is no account of satan ever appearing as a human being. Therefore, I find it hard to justify your claim that Satan took on the form of a man because he never did.



            In 2 Thess 2:9 & Rev 13:4 scripture says the beast "antichrist" receives power from Satan, thereby making him distinct from Satan. Regarding the False Prophet, Rev 13:12 says he, himself received power from the first beast (AC). Satan did not in any way manifest in human form. If you cannot understand what is written in plain language in scripture, you have a lot of studying to do.
            You say Rev 13:12 the second beast is receiving power from the first beast, this is a slight difference but I read it more as the first beast is ruling the world, and the second beast is using the authority of the first beast to cause all the world to worship the first beast, Also note this language "And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence" John uses this word here a lot to denote things in the presence of God elsewhere, for instance the angels in the presence of or before God. To me whether or not one sees Satan as being able to temporally indwell people to influence them or if he whispers in his ear(or however he influences people) It seems to me that the second beast is influencing the first beast, And we both agree the first beast Antichrist is influenced by Satan. And although I don't understand what you mean by the antichrist giving power to the false prophet, to me it seems scripture is more harmonised if the second beast is Satan. So im probably going to just agree to disagree with you on the identity of the second beast.

            Also It makes no sense to me if the second beast as the false prophet performs all these signs and miracles, would not that then mean people would worship him, yet it says he causes the world to worship the first beast, Again in verse 14, He was granted signs to do in the sight of again its that same word used in verse 12 in the presence of the first beast, so by all accounts it reads to me that the world thinks its the first beast performing the signs, yet its not they are deceived.


            Looks like you and I are singing from different hymn books because I have no idea where the "3 beats" you are talking about comes from? There are only 2 beats in Rev 13. I only mentioned Abaddon as the beast that kills the 2Ws.
            Two plus one equals three? Im not sure what the problem is with me saying you have three beasts involved in end times events and asking which one of the beasts do you see thrown alive into the Lof with the Fp, I now I see you are saying its the AC.
            Also, Abaddon is Satan's agent, so where in the Bible did you read that he killed the firstborn of Egypt? That particular deed was by an angel of God.
            Where do you read that abaddon is Satans agent?

            Exo 12:23 "for the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you.

            I see the Lord going through Egypt and taking an angel with Him, one who was authorised to kill those that were not protected by the blood.

            I see the angel with the Lord as Satan aka the destroying angel, not because he had authority to kill, for only God has the authority to decide over life and death.
            And combined with other accounts there seems to have been an angel who was given a physical role of destroying people, a lot of people associate this angel as the one named as the destroyer
            that comes out of the pit Rev 9 And more people including myself Also see him as Satan.

            1 chron 21:15 And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But as the angel was doing so, the LORD saw it and relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was destroying the people, "Enough! Withdraw your hand." The angel of the LORD was then standing at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.



            In Rev 17:8 we are told Abaddon went into perdition. That's the last account we have of him and his destruction occur long before the return of Christ when the AC+FP are cast into the lake of fire. I'm trying to help you - Satan did not manifest as a human in scripture.
            I don't understand again, You write abaddon went into perdition (as in past tense) and say it happens long before the return of Christ, are you amil in perspective?

            I appreciate your help, and realise too we are singing from different hymn books, but that's why I enjoy discussing not to try and alter your view but to better understand your view so it might help me





            Comment


            • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post


              2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
              2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


              Is it a coincidence that Lucifer/Satan wanted to do the same things the antichrist is prophesied to do? Can you imagine the level of deception if satan himself, the fallen archangel, were to pretend to be God? After being kicked out of heaven, doesn't it make sense that satan himself would try to be God on the world stage known as the great tribulation? The last time he really is allowed any power before Christ returns? It amazes me people are still thinking it's just going to be some man satan influences...
              Thanks a lot of reading in your post so I shortened it, I know some people also see when the head had a mortal wound, that Satan permanently indwells and takes over a spiritless corpse to become instantly king of the world, and uses Moses body as an example of Satan trying to do this before, yet the reason why I dont see this, is simply the AC is thrown alive into the LoF before the millennial period, So while I pretty much agree with your thoughts, such is the nature of forums instead of agreeing and adding to your good points ill point out what I perceive is a difference,

              While I think that Satan entered Judas and had some control over him, Judas was still also rightly held to account, I suppose I extrapolate this thinking right through out human history and I think it is by Gods permission he enters people. And yet I agree he also wants to be as God and wants to be worshipped etc etc

              But notice men also want to do this? how many times have I heard I am the greatest!! coming from the mouth of men and it seems to me I here it more and more, especially sportsmen and are they getting close to being adored by millions of fans and do they as men like it?

              This thinking even tries to sneak into Christian circles, how many times have you herad this, "Ive been reading and studying the bible for 91 years young whippersnapper", (so submit to me a mere man)

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              • Originally posted by boangry View Post
                such is the nature of forums instead of agreeing and adding to your good points ill point out what I perceive is a difference,



                I didn't notice any real difference being pointed out. Do you disagree that Satan could actually be the AC? Either in his natural form or possessing a person...I still believe ultimately the AC is Satan and is what Satan has always wanted to be, a God worshiped by man and especially replacing Christ and taking worship from Him.
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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