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  • #76
    Re: The False Prophet

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    So which of the 7 literal hills in Rome has a deadly wound, and is healed?

    Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads(apparently meaning one of the 7 hills of Rome) as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
    In Rev 17 the symbol has dual application. It applies to seven consecutive kingdoms.

    And it also represents 7 hills on which the whore city sits.

    Rev 13, does not mention the hills, and ties in very closely with Daniel 7, in which heads are kingdoms. So one of those kingdoms has a deadly wound.

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    • #77
      Re: The False Prophet

      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post

      Rev 13, does not mention the hills

      Why does that matter though? Is the 7 headed beast with 10 horns in Rev 17 this same 7 headed beast with 10 horns in Rev 13 or not?

      If it is, the following verse tells us what the 7 heads represent.

      Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

      Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

      How then can this head not be one of the seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth? Which then brings us back to where we started. If meaning 7 literal hills in Rome, which literal hill in Rome is Revelation 13:3 referring to? But if we have mountains meaning kingdoms rather than literal hills, we can perhaps understand the following like such, in that case.

      Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his kingdoms as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

      Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven kingdoms, on which the woman sitteth.
      10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

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      • #78
        Re: The False Prophet

        Originally posted by divaD View Post
        Why does that matter though? Is the 7 headed beast with 10 horns in Rev 17 this same 7 headed beast with 10 horns in Rev 13 or not?

        If it is, the following verse tells us what the 7 heads represent.

        Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

        Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

        How then can this head not be one of the seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth? Which then brings us back to where we started. If meaning 7 literal hills in Rome, which literal hill in Rome is Revelation 13:3 referring to? But if we have mountains meaning kingdoms rather than literal hills, we can perhaps understand the following like such, in that case.

        Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his kingdoms as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

        Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven kingdoms, on which the woman sitteth.
        10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.


        Due to the fact that heads represent kingdoms in both Daniel 7 and in Revelation 17, that is the primary meaning. This is what Rev 13 is referring to.

        The additional meaning of 7 hills/mountains is only introduced in Rev 17 in relation to the harlot city.


        The seven heads are seven HILLS on which the woman sits. 10 They are ALSO SEVEN KINGS. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come

        If Rev 13 refers to one of the heads being wounded, is it referring to a "hill" or a "king". My common sense says it's the king being referred to that is wounded, not the hill. You seem to be focusing on the hill being wounded. We don't have to make a hill into a kingdom to understand the text, if the Bible interprets a symbol we should stick to that :

        Bible says : Head = hill
        Bible also says : Head = king

        Not: head = hill = kingdom

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        • #79
          Re: The False Prophet

          Originally posted by divaD View Post
          You think they have already literally been cast into there, correct?
          Yes I do"............

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          • #80
            Re: The False Prophet

            Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
            Scarlet Colored Beast just means he represents Governments, and Religious Orders, the Colors Purple and Scarlet are well known to be exclusive colors to the Royals and the Pious, thus the exclusivity. The garments of these colors only came via a long process and thus these dyes were expensive. If you want to see the picture of Revelation. 17 turn to Daniel chapter 5, the Fall of Babylon happened because of their Abomination of the Cups/Chalices of the Temple of God, thus MENE, MENE, TEKEL, thy Kingdom has been taken away from thee {handwriting on the wall}.

            The Beast of Rev. 17 is Apollyon, he comes out of the Pit, read Rev. 9, he is the King of the Pit, he is released in Rev. 9, in Rev. 11 he kills the Two-witnesses. The Beast of Rev. 13 is the Anti-Christ, a MAN. The Beast of Rev. 12 is Satan, the Dragon. These ate PLAYERS in and around the Mediterranean Sea Region Kingdoms, ALL are players. Satan is the TOP BRASS, he places a Demon named the Destroyer over the Region to DESTROY Israel, he tries to do this with Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia was used to bring Israel back to their homeland, thus he was overruled by God, Greece tried to Destroy Israel as did Rome via the Diaspora. All of those besides Cyrus tried to bring harm to Israel. He was then locked in the Pit. Then He will be released at the 1st Woe.



            The 8th King is is Apollyon, it says he is the King of the Bottomless Pit.

            I only have a small piece of difference with how you are thinking here, so I can relate quite easily and enjoy how you view things. You will disagree with my point of difference which is ok, but ill explain it so you might be able to understand how I relate this to other topics maybe?

            I see Apollyon/Abaddon which means destroyer as a destroyer in a cumulative sense, I see it as Him who destroys or who causes to perish.

            According to the Brown Driver Briggs lexicon, the Hebrew abaddon (Hebrew: אבדון‎; abaddon) is an intensive form of the Semitic root and verb stem abad (אָבַד)[1] "perish" (transitive "destroy"), which occurs 184 times in the Hebrew Bible. The Septuagint, an early Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, renders "Abaddon" as "ἀ απώλεια",[2] while the Greek Apollyon comes from apollymi (ἀ απόλλυμι), "to destroy". The Greek term Apollyon (Ἀ απολλύων, "the destroyer"), is the active participle of apollymi (ἀπόλλυμι, "to destroy").

            I also see this as related to sin, as sin destroys and causes one to perish, this link can be traced all the way back to Eden, As there was a serpent there who had a role in the fall of man and sin entering the world.

            Also When you say Satan tried to destroy Israel, I see it as slightly different, I see God warning Israel to obey if they don't he will bring ruin upon them, For example the 10 northern tribes disobeyed God, and he let the Assyrians come and plunder and carry them away to captivity, I simply think God accomplished this by commanding Satan to do this. Satan indwells the King and obeys God.

            Satan also tried to indwell the prophet Moses of his own will but was not allowed to, Jude verse 9 says Yet Michael the archangel in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses.... "said the Lord rebuke you" this is in context of speaking evil of authorities and at the end of the day God puts them in place.

            Also we read in Deut 34 "Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigor diminished."


            So we can see that Satan also wanted to be the mouthpiece and leader for Gods people as well as prince of the world, then fast forward to the birth Of Jesus, another prophet in the manner of Moses came and was rejected, yet they will accept another who comes in his own name, he will be the Antichrist/false prophet. And then we have history repeating itself or is it God foretelling or showing us beforehand the things that will happen . Now Satan goes into the presence of the AC at the time of him receiving a fatal wound, and keeps him from dying. Im not saying 100% this is right but its just how I read it at the moment! And again I see it as a way God gathers the nations together in judgment and He seems to use Satan as His tool.

            I see that there were seven world kingdoms, gentile kingdoms that also had dominion over Israel at some point.

            1. Pharaoh also at times indwelt by Satan
            2. The Assyrian also at times indwelt by Satan
            3. King of Babylon also at times indwelt by Lucifer/Satan
            4. King of Persia also at times indwelt by Satan (means one horn will probably have been stronger)
            5. King of Greece at times indwelt by Satan
            6. King of Rome at times indwelt by Satan
            7. Antichrist at times indwelt by Satan

            I see the picture of the dragon with seven heads explained above.

            The beast(Satan) that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going into perdition.

            So I probably could have simply said I agree with a lot about your view of Abaddon, except that I think it is another name for Satan.

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            • #81
              Re: The False Prophet

              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
              I just take the Bible at face value
              1) it's obvious that the beast in Rev 17 is the same as the one in Rev 13, they both have ten horns and seven heads
              2) it is obvious that the 7 heads are consecutive, because 5 were, 1 is, and 1 is to come.

              Its always possible to have a more complicated interpretation of the text, I just try to stick to the face value meaning.
              Again, both Rev 13 and 17 say the beast has 7 heads, not consecutive. The only things mentioned to be consecutive are 8 kings. Only 5 of them had fallen before Johns time, one was falling and that left only two left to come. Those aren't heads. The heads hadn't fallen, one was and two heads left to come and fall. The whole problem comes from conflating the heads and kings.
              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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              • #82
                Re: The False Prophet

                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                If they are simultaneous, where I tend to get that impression as well, IMO verse 2 in Rev 13 would be the reason why. But I do see DurbanDude's point as well. But why would John see a 7 headed beast rise up from the sea if 5 of those heads were no longer significant?
                This is where one has to decide which manuscript is correct. One says the 7 heads are the 7 kings that fell and were falling. A dif one does not equate them as the same things but simply tal;ks about the heads, then moves on to a new subject regarding these consecutive kings. Obviously since the beast rises with all 7 heads, we cannot say 6 had fallen before it rose because it should only have 1 or 2 heads when John saw it. No heads fall at all, and even one that was wounded very seriously still healed and did not fall.
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: The False Prophet

                  Originally posted by boangry View Post

                  So I probably could have simply said I agree with a lot about your view of Abaddon, except that I think it is another name for Satan.
                  Assuming it might be another name for satan, I can think of at least 2 places, if this were so, it should have said so if that were the case.

                  Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

                  Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

                  Not one single mention of Abaddon in either of these verses.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: The False Prophet

                    Originally posted by divaD View Post
                    But what are mountains though? Literal mountains?
                    It's just land not specifically volcanoes or something. Most land is not sea level flat...it rises up and people built kingdoms based on higher level places back in the past and that was for defensive purposes but kingdoms today aren't built on the highest ground, just important ground. America is a mountain, England is a mountain.....I think this is what the metaphors are meaning when we think globally.
                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: The False Prophet

                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      This is where one has to decide which manuscript is correct. One says the 7 heads are the 7 kings that fell and were falling. A dif one does not equate them as the same things but simply tal;ks about the heads, then moves on to a new subject regarding these consecutive kings. Obviously since the beast rises with all 7 heads, we cannot say 6 had fallen before it rose because it should only have 1 or 2 heads when John saw it. No heads fall at all, and even one that was wounded very seriously still healed and did not fall.
                      Your logic here is similar to my logic then, in regards to this.

                      Though I haven't quite figured it all out, and probably never will, I still think verse 2 in Rev 13 is key to why we see one beast, but with 7 heads.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: The False Prophet

                        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                        Bible also says : Head = king
                        Only according to certain manuscripts. Others do not say that. Rev 13 proves that the heads are not fallen kings/kingdoms.
                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: The False Prophet

                          Originally posted by divaD View Post
                          Your logic here is similar to my logic then, in regards to this.

                          Though I haven't quite figured it all out, and probably never will, I still think verse 2 in Rev 13 is key to why we see one beast, but with 7 heads.
                          Just like pagan Rome, the beast has 7 hills or mountains where ten kingdoms are located. It's that simple. I think of it as the 7 continents of the world, symbolizing an empire of ten smaller kingdoms ruling the Earth.
                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: The False Prophet

                            Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                            I can only see (3) enetities:
                            1) The Beast - This is a representation of nations and kings. The Beast represents worldly leaders having power and dominion over the people.
                            2) The False Prophet - He is a man (Man of Sin) (Son of Perdition) (Anti-Christ) (Abomination that makes desolation) - Daniel 12:11, Matthew 24:15, 2 Thess 2:3
                            3) The Dragon - The devil and Satan

                            * The beast is a general description to the leaders (having great power) that led "Gods people" captive since the time of Daniel. He is mentioned as going into the pit, killing the (2) witnesses, the red dragon fighting with Michael in the war in heaven (Rev 12:3), coming out of the sea in (Rev 13:1), described again in Rev 17:11 and Rev 19:19. This is representing leaders with worldly power and dominion over the "Gods people". The beast was in the pit for 1000 years (representing no power over "Gods people" for this period).
                            While I agree in that there are three entities Im not trying to be fastidious here or anything, but if the beast is symbolic then I don't really see it as an entity?

                            One of the reasons I cant relate to it as an entity, I don't see with how or why a symbol of world leaders and kings would be put in a pit, then released?

                            Also for example that means for instance in Rev 19:19 "And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war." I see three entities here where as you would only see two?


                            * The False profit is a man. He is the anti-Christ. But he is also described as the head that had the deadly wound and was healed and goeth into perdition (Rev 17:11). He is also a head of the beast (being the eighth). He is given 42 months to reign.

                            * Satan is the devil. He has been around since beginning of time. He gives power to both the beast and the false prophet. He was in Judas, He was in the red dragon (Rev 12:3), He was in the false prophet. He is cast in the LOF in Rev 20:10

                            The (3) entities are mentioned again in Rev 16:13
                            "three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet"
                            - The dragon is Satan
                            - The Beast is great leaders authorizing dominion over "Gods people" since Daniel
                            - The False Profit is the man of sin/son of perdition (Daniel 12:11, Matthew 24:15, 2 Thess 2:3) - Given 42 months to reign
                            Again I see similarities and differences of view, But reading this and other threads I have to change my thinking in certain areas for sure.

                            We probably agree here that the frogs are symbolic of Words, the lying seductive words permeate the whole world as the frogs got into every where back in Exodus.

                            But I still see the three entities here as

                            The mouth of the dragon, the mouth of the false prophet and the mouth of the image of the beast, Rev 13:15b "That the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many who would not worship the image of the beast to be killed."

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                            • #89
                              Re: The False Prophet

                              Originally posted by boangry View Post

                              The beast(Satan) that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going into perdition.

                              The beast is not meaning satan though. Nowhere in Rev 19 does it ever indicate satan is cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming. satan is not even mentioned in that chapter.

                              In Rev 20 though, when satan is cast into the LOF, the beast and fp are already there. If satan is the beast, how does he manage to get cast into the LOF twice?

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: The False Prophet

                                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                                Assuming it might be another name for satan, I can think of at least 2 places, if this were so, it should have said so if that were the case.

                                Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

                                Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

                                Not one single mention of Abaddon in either of these verses.
                                I don't really ascribe to this type of logic, But I note: it also doesn't name him Beelzebub here either or A few other names that come to mind, so...

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