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  • #91
    Re: The False Prophet

    Originally posted by boangry View Post
    I don't really ascribe to this type of logic, But I note: it also doesn't name him Beelzebub here either or A few other names that come to mind, so...
    Even if we toss that logic out, Rev 20:10 still already has the beast and fp in the LOF before satan even joins them there. In Rev 20:10, there are 3 entities involved, not two, or one instead. Plus there is also the following.

    Revelation 13:2 And the beast(one entity) which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon(another entity) gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

    3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
    4 And they worshipped the dragon(one entity) which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast(another entity), saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


    If someone said...And they worshiped the Father who gave power to the Son, and they worshiped the Son, would any trinitarian think the Father and Son are the same person?

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    • #92
      Re: The False Prophet

      Originally posted by divaD View Post
      The beast is not meaning satan though. Nowhere in Rev 19 does it ever indicate satan is cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming.
      Agreed.
      satan is not even mentioned in that chapter.
      but you quoted Rev 17? who I believe is Satan

      In Rev 20 though, when satan is cast into the LOF, the beast and fp are already there. If satan is the beast, how does he manage to get cast into the LOF twice?
      You misunderstand me, I also believe Satan gets thrown into the LoF at the end of the 1000yrs in Rev 20, not In ch 19, I think answered you before the same question, Ill have a look at what I said, but I think there is a third beast, There is an Image built of the FP, It will be huge, Similar to the the image built of Nebuchadnezzar, except this one will be given life.

      Rev 13:15 says He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many who would not worship the image of the beast to be killed."

      Yes I realise what im saying sounds incredulous but whenever breath is used in this context it means life for example God breathed breath into Adam and brought him to life, Acts 17:25 says concerning our creator. "nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything."

      Rightly or wrongly I have a picture of a big Giant robot tank in the form of a man come to some sort of life marching with the armies of the AC upon Israel.

      And If the image did come to life, and if controlled by Satan (I don't know the Hows) then it needs thrown into the pit...

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      • #93
        Re: The False Prophet

        Originally posted by divaD View Post
        Even if we toss that logic out, Rev 20:10 still already has the beast and fp in the LOF before satan even joins them there. In Rev 20:10, there are 3 entities involved, not two, or one instead. Plus there is also the following.

        Revelation 13:2 And the beast(one entity) which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon(another entity) gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

        3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
        4 And they worshipped the dragon(one entity) which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast(another entity), saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


        If someone said...And they worshiped the Father who gave power to the Son, and they worshiped the Son, would any trinitarian think the Father and Son are the same person?
        Ok I went back and found you asking this before and Will repost my answer in case you missed





        Originally posted by divaD View Post
        The following alone contradicts some of your conclusions.

        Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

        The text says this...These both were cast alive. Usually 'both' means 2, thus making these not the same entity, but 2 distinct entities.

        Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

        the devil that deceived them...equals 1 entity. the beast...equals 1 entity. the false prophet...equals 1 entity. 1 entity+1 entity+1 entity=3 entities.






        Originally posted by boangry View Post
        Yes excellent point.

        I was going to copy and paste a previous post from another thread, but ill rewrite instead.

        1st beast = the False prophet aka the antichrist = 1 entity

        2nd beast = Satan = 1 entity

        3rd beast = Image that has come to life = 1 entity

        So 1+1+1 = one hundred and eleven nah just kidding, it = 3 entities.

        Rev 13:15 "He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast" Gen 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;"

        I find the idea of an image coming to life, totally unfathomable, but by all means and purposes its what the text appears to say, and if its what the scripture says then its all according to Gods plan.

        Rev 13:15b"That the image of the beast should both speak, and cause as many as would not worship the beast to be killed"

        And if the third beast has been brought to life I expect this is the beast that is cast alive with the FP into the lake of fire.
        We just have different entities, for instance you saying the first beast out of the sea is the one coming out of the bottomless pit, has merits, Im going to have a look and try and rethink why I do and if I need to change :-)

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        • #94
          Re: The False Prophet

          Originally posted by boangry View Post
          I don't really ascribe to this type of logic, But I note: it also doesn't name him Beelzebub here either or A few other names that come to mind, so...
          True.

          Satan isn't a personal name although we do use it in that way. All the "names" he has are really just descriptions of who he is morally. The word satan means adversary, devil means accuser, apollyon means destroyer and abaddon means destruction, dragon means a great serpent and serpent is just serpent implying deception and danger. When these are read in context it is always the one we call "Satan". They are not different beings in context.


          Barnes:
          Whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon - The name Abaddon means literally “destruction,” and is the same as Apollyon.

          Clarke:
          Abaddon - From ??? abad, he destroyed.
          Apollyon - From ap?, intensive, and ?????, to destroy. The meaning is the same both in the Hebrew and Greek.

          Gill:
          whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon; both which signify a "destroyer"



          apollyon means destroyer

          Joh_10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

          Satan is the thief who wants to destroy just as the word Apollyon means to destroy.

          abaddon means destruction

          1Co_5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

          Here Satan does cause destruction. To destroy or cause destruction is the same concept which is why scholars say the two names have the same meaning.
          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: The False Prophet

            Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
            Just to clarify, there is just one ten horn Roman kingdom, but 3 demons are connected to it.

            Firstly there's Satan, the dragon.
            In Rev 13:2 he gives the end times demon/ beast from the bottomless pit, power and authority over the ten horn kingdom.
            Yet there is an ancient demon king/ beast, in Daniel 7 that had power and authority over Rome, right from Greek times until the second coming.

            Satan is in ultimate control, the Roman beast controls a large region of EU/Turkey, but an ancient Syrian/Israel based beast will rise up at the end. Satan and the Roman beast will give the Syrian/Israel based beast vast control in the region for the final 3.5 years.
            You have the last one you mention via Daniel 7 crossed up, that is Apollyon of Rev. 17.

            Rev. 12 is Satan. Rev. 13 is a MAN, the Little Horn. So its Satan {he is a Demon} the Little Horn/Man of Sin {he is a Man} and Apollyon the Demon that WAS...IS NOT...YET IS. Apollyon was the prince of Persia that withstood Micheal for 21 days.

            All of the "Beasts" are about the power of the Mediterranean Sea Region. Egypt was a head, Assyria was a Head as were Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. The Last Beast is a MAN because he never passes his Kingdom on to another, like all the others did, that is why in Rev. 17 God REDUCES the Kingdoms to Kings who fall, it shows us the last beast is a MAN not a Kingdom passed from one king to another. That's why Dan/ 7:11-12 points out that this last beast will be cast straight into hell when he loses dominion, whereas all the other Beasts will live on for a time and a season, because Jesus ends Satan's rule on earth, there is no longer any place for ANY KINGDOM but the Rock that smashes the Statue into pieces, and the ROCK hits the Statue in the FEET {10 Toes/Kings and Anti-Christ/Beast}.

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            • #96
              Re: The False Prophet

              Originally posted by divaD View Post
              So why does the dragon have seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads? I can make sense of what you say in regards to the beast that rises out of the sea, but I don't see any of that explaining why satan, at the time of Christ's birth, is depicted as having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads?
              Because the Prophecy has nothing to do with Jesus birth, that was in the past, we are just being given a CODE where we can understand who these Beasts are, where they ruled, and it needed to be told in CODE so as not to get Rome to crack down on the Church for sedition. Everything past Rev. chapter 3....beginning with 4:1 is the HEREAFTER meaning after the Rapture/Church Age. Thus Rev. 12 is about the 1260 Conquering of Jerusalem, as shown in Daniel 12:6-7, called the 1260 event because there is 1260 days of time where the Beast is given to rule as the Beast.

              Rev. 12 is about that Beasts 1260 days, and him chasing the Woman {Israel} into the Wilderness/Mountains via the Anti-Christs Army. It has nothing to do with Jesus being born, its just a part of the code like Genesis 37:9 tells us who the Woman is. The whole prophecy is about the 1260 Event, where Satan is cast down on day 1260. This is how we know the first six seals are opened in ONE DAY, on day 1260, in the Middle of the week.

              So until one can see its not about the past bit the future 70th week this is going to be hard to understand in full.

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              • #97
                Re: The False Prophet

                Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                Ok so you and many others think the 7 heads are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, MP, Greece, Rome, Last kingdom (revived Rome?). So follow this logic....

                So I will assume though I don't agree that the four kingdoms in Dan 2 speak of the same in Dan 7. So we would have the seven heads as such .....

                1. Egypt
                2. Assyria
                3. Babylon - Lion
                4. MP - Bear
                5. Greece - Leopard
                6. Rome - Beast
                7. revived Rome - Little horn

                The problem is the Lion, Bear, Leopard, Beast are 7 heads in of themselves as the leopards has four heads. Thus in the most common interpretation there are actually more than 7 heads and thus needs to be discredited.

                6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

                1. Egypt
                2. Assyria
                3. Babylon - Lion
                4. MP - Bear
                5,6,7,8, Greece - Leopard
                9. Rome - Beast
                10. revived Rome - Little horn

                The seven heads are contained within the Lion (1), bear (2), Leopard (3,4,5,6), Beast (7) the little horn would be the 8th. Thus the seven heads would not include Egypt nor Assyria.
                Each head is a Kingdom, not sub divided Kingdoms within a Kingdom, in that case we would count hundreds of Kingdoms.

                Egypt is a Kingdom that was in POWER or had DOMINION over the Mediterranean Sea Region {MSR} and Israel, we can see this on a Map, then Assyria was a Power with Dominion in the MSR, followed the Babylon who took Israel into bondage, followed by Persia who favored Israel but yet had power and dominion over the MSR. Greece then Conquered Persia and Micheal/God made the prince of Persia {Apollyon IMHO} bend to His will that Alexander the Great Conquer the whole MSR. The Rome eventually gained great power and dominion over the Mediterranean Sea Region.

                These are the 6 Heads of which 5 gad fallen in Rev. 17, ONE WAS {IS at Johns time} and one is YET TO COME !! Nowhere do we count more than on Head as a Power of Dominion in the Mediterranean Sea Region, its not about the Number of Kingdoms, there can only be ONE POWER overall that has Dominion over the Region. All, of this added 4 her and others there is just not what God is speaking of, Hes speaking of the POWERS over the MSR, not sub powers divided by sub powers divided by tribes !!

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                • #98
                  Re: The False Prophet

                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  ?? How? The 4th beast has 7 heads. The beast is not a head. The heads are mountains. I wish people would stick to what the verses actually say.
                  The MOUNTAIN stands for a Rising Power.

                  Nowhere does it say the 4th beast has 7 heads but it has 10 horns. Read again.

                  The dragon has both 7 heads (4 beasts) and 10 horns.
                  The 7th Head has 10 Horns and he ARISES out of the 6th Head which was WOUNDED. That is why the E.U. must Conquer Northern Africa, Israel, Lebanon and Syria, see Daniel 11:40-43, this makes the Anti-Christs Kingdom on a Map look IDENTICAL to the Old Roman Empire on a Map.

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                  • #99
                    Re: The False Prophet

                    Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
                    The MOUNTAIN stands for a Rising Power.
                    Not in Rev. The rising powers are the ten kings who receive kingdoms one hour with the beast empire, who rises with these smaller inner kingdoms. The mountains are just like the hills of Rome, areas of land where the kingdoms are established.



                    The 7th Head has 10 Horns and he ARISES out of the 6th Head which was WOUNDED.
                    The bible doesn't say which of the 7 heads were wounded nor does it say head number 7 has all ten horns. The beast has 7 heads so those ten horns would be distributed more evenly than you propose.


                    That is why the E.U. must Conquer Northern Africa, Israel, Lebanon and Syria, see Daniel 11:40-43, this makes the Anti-Christs Kingdom on a Map look IDENTICAL to the Old Roman Empire on a Map.
                    The beast empire that is coming will be so much more than any of this. It will make the area Rome used to control look like it's tiny.
                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • Re: The False Prophet

                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      Not in Rev. The rising powers are the ten kings who receive kingdoms one hour with the beast empire, who rises with these smaller inner kingdoms. The mountains are just like the hills of Rome, areas of land where the kingdoms are established.
                      No they aren't, the 7th Head/Mountain has yet to arrive. The 7 Mountains stands for 7 Kings who have ARISEN and Rev. 17 is showing this to John. The 7 Heads are a known entity. The whole reason God shows us MOUNTAINS..........Then Reduces these Kingdoms to Kings who have FALLEN us to let us know the LAST MOUNTAIN that arises will have a King that falls who will also be the Mountain who arose, thus the last Beast is a MAN ALONE, not a Kingdom passed from one king to another, the ORIGINAL MOUNTAIN will be the KING THAT FALLS also. That is why the Beast in Daniel 7:11 is KILLED and CAST into hell fire.

                      The bible doesn't say which of the 7 heads were wounded nor does it say head number 7 has all ten horns. The beast has 7 heads so those ten horns would be distributed more evenly than you propose.
                      You just have to know what to look for, The Roman Head was WOUNDED, its the only Beast that could be wounded, it was the last beast before the Anti-Christ HEALS the Beast.

                      The beast empire that is coming will be so much more than any of this. It will make the area Rome used to control look like it's tiny.
                      He will have the exact same land mass as Old Rome, now he might rule the whole earth from there, but the 7 Headed Beast refers to ONLY the Mediterranean Sea Region.

                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      Not in Rev. The rising powers are the ten kings who receive kingdoms one hour with the beast empire, who rises with these smaller inner kingdoms. The mountains are just like the hills of Rome, areas of land where the kingdoms are established.
                      No they aren't, the 7th Head/Mountain has yet to arrive. The 7 Mountains stands for 7 Kings who have ARISEN and Rev. 17 is showing this to John. The 7 Heads are a known entity. The whole reason God shows us MOUNTAINS..........Then Reduces these Kingdoms to Kings who have FALLEN us to let us know the LAST MOUNTAIN that arises will have a King that falls who will also be the Mountain who arose, thus the last Beast is a MAN ALONE, not a Kingdom passed from one king to another, the ORIGINAL MOUNTAIN will be the KING THAT FALLS also. That is why the Beast in Daniel 7:11 is KILLED and CAST into hell fire.

                      The bible doesn't say which of the 7 heads were wounded nor does it say head number 7 has all ten horns. The beast has 7 heads so those ten horns would be distributed more evenly than you propose.
                      You just have to know what to look for, The Roman Head was WOUNDED, its the only Beast that could be wounded, it was the last beast before the Anti-Christ HEALS the Beast.

                      The beast empire that is coming will be so much more than any of this. It will make the area Rome used to control look like it's tiny.
                      He will have the exact same land mass as Old Rome, now he might rule the whole earth from there, but the 7 Headed Beast refers to ONLY the Mediterranean Sea Region.

                      Comment


                      • Re: The False Prophet

                        Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
                        No they aren't, the 7th Head/Mountain has yet to arrive. The 7 Mountains stands for 7 Kings who have ARISEN and Rev. 17 is showing this to John.
                        The 7 mountains are not the 7 kings of which 6 fell before the 7th rises up. That 7th kingdom is the Rev 13:1 beast which has 7 heads, none had fallen because heads and kings are not the same things in Rev. Only horns are kings in the book.
                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                        Comment


                        • Re: The False Prophet

                          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                          Again, both Rev 13 and 17 say the beast has 7 heads, not consecutive. The only things mentioned to be consecutive are 8 kings. Only 5 of them had fallen before Johns time, one was falling and that left only two left to come. Those aren't heads. The heads hadn't fallen, one was and two heads left to come and fall. The whole problem comes from conflating the heads and kings.
                          It depends on the translation. NIV:

                          The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. THEY are also seven kings.

                          If we understand Dan 7 through the eyes of history, the 4 heads of the leopard beast were the 4 kingdoms that followed Alexander's Greek Empire. From this we understand that heads are kingdoms.

                          The difference with the 7 heads, compared to the 4 heads, is that the 7 are consecutive, 5 were, one is, and one is to come.

                          But precedent and wording show that the 7 heads are 7 kings /kingdoms, and only 7 hills when specifically the harlot is mentioned.

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                          • Re: The False Prophet

                            Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
                            You have the last one you mention via Daniel 7 crossed up, that is Apollyon of Rev. 17.

                            Rev. 12 is Satan. Rev. 13 is a MAN, the Little Horn. So its Satan {he is a Demon} the Little Horn/Man of Sin {he is a Man} and Apollyon the Demon that WAS...IS NOT...YET IS. Apollyon was the prince of Persia that withstood Micheal for 21 days.

                            All of the "Beasts" are about the power of the Mediterranean Sea Region. Egypt was a head, Assyria was a Head as were Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. The Last Beast is a MAN because he never passes his Kingdom on to another, like all the others did, that is why in Rev. 17 God REDUCES the Kingdoms to Kings who fall, it shows us the last beast is a MAN not a Kingdom passed from one king to another. That's why Dan/ 7:11-12 points out that this last beast will be cast straight into hell when he loses dominion, whereas all the other Beasts will live on for a time and a season, because Jesus ends Satan's rule on earth, there is no longer any place for ANY KINGDOM but the Rock that smashes the Statue into pieces, and the ROCK hits the Statue in the FEET {10 Toes/Kings and Anti-Christ/Beast}.
                            Generally I do agree with you here, except a subtle difference when you say the Rev 13 beast is a human. It does seem like that but I prefer to stay consistent with the symbols. Ie beasts are kingdoms and /or demon kings. The Rev 13 beast only starts matching the behavior of the little horn when "given a mouth".
                            The demon king, when "given a mouth" is a boastful ruler who rules for 42 months. I therefore see the moment of being given a mouth, as representing the demon given a human mouthpiece, a human way of expression. Expressing itself through a human. The beast is cast into the lake of fire, not the human mouthpiece.

                            Regarding Apollyon, I'm not convinced yet that it is a Persian demon to re-arise, it seems more like a demon related to Antiochus, a Greek controlled kingdom based in Assyria. If we compare behavior of demons, the behavior under Antiochus is closely matching the future behavior of the antichrist. This is the demon who I expect to arise, the one during the time the Seleucids controlled the Levant.

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                            • Re: The False Prophet

                              Originally posted by divaD View Post
                              Your logic here is similar to my logic then, in regards to this.

                              Though I haven't quite figured it all out, and probably never will, I still think verse 2 in Rev 13 is key to why we see one beast, but with 7 heads.
                              The way you and ewq are reading Rev 17 needs clarification. The NIV is pretty clear that the 7 consecutive kings relate to the 7 heads.

                              The KJV is more ambiguous, but if you regard those 7 consecutive kings as unrelated to the beast, why does the Bible decide to introduce 7 consecutive kings into the text, if unrelated to the 7 heads of the beast just mentioned?

                              Not just the NIV, but the Amplified and some other Bibles (eg ASV) also associate the 7 heads with the 7 consecutive kings.
                              AmP:: The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits; and THEY are seven kings: five of whom have fallen, one exists and is reigning

                              Comment


                              • Re: The False Prophet

                                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                                Again, both Rev 13 and 17 say the beast has 7 heads, not consecutive. The only things mentioned to be consecutive are 8 kings. Only 5 of them had fallen before Johns time, one was falling and that left only two left to come. Those aren't heads. The heads hadn't fallen, one was and two heads left to come and fall. The whole problem comes from conflating the heads and kings.
                                Many bibles disagree with you. The 7 heads are directly related to 7 consecutive kings according to the NIV, the Amplified Bible, and more translations.

                                Its not a problem to conflate the kings/heads, it's the solution

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