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  • ewq1938
    replied
    Originally posted by boangry View Post
    such is the nature of forums instead of agreeing and adding to your good points ill point out what I perceive is a difference,



    I didn't notice any real difference being pointed out. Do you disagree that Satan could actually be the AC? Either in his natural form or possessing a person...I still believe ultimately the AC is Satan and is what Satan has always wanted to be, a God worshiped by man and especially replacing Christ and taking worship from Him.

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  • boangry
    replied
    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post


    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


    Is it a coincidence that Lucifer/Satan wanted to do the same things the antichrist is prophesied to do? Can you imagine the level of deception if satan himself, the fallen archangel, were to pretend to be God? After being kicked out of heaven, doesn't it make sense that satan himself would try to be God on the world stage known as the great tribulation? The last time he really is allowed any power before Christ returns? It amazes me people are still thinking it's just going to be some man satan influences...
    Thanks a lot of reading in your post so I shortened it, I know some people also see when the head had a mortal wound, that Satan permanently indwells and takes over a spiritless corpse to become instantly king of the world, and uses Moses body as an example of Satan trying to do this before, yet the reason why I dont see this, is simply the AC is thrown alive into the LoF before the millennial period, So while I pretty much agree with your thoughts, such is the nature of forums instead of agreeing and adding to your good points ill point out what I perceive is a difference,

    While I think that Satan entered Judas and had some control over him, Judas was still also rightly held to account, I suppose I extrapolate this thinking right through out human history and I think it is by Gods permission he enters people. And yet I agree he also wants to be as God and wants to be worshipped etc etc

    But notice men also want to do this? how many times have I heard I am the greatest!! coming from the mouth of men and it seems to me I here it more and more, especially sportsmen and are they getting close to being adored by millions of fans and do they as men like it?

    This thinking even tries to sneak into Christian circles, how many times have you herad this, "Ive been reading and studying the bible for 91 years young whippersnapper", (so submit to me a mere man)

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  • boangry
    replied
    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

    Satan influencing a human to do his bidding is not the same as Satan himself taking on or appearing in human form. The AC and his False Prophet will be humans that can be touched, however, there is no account of satan ever appearing as a human being. Therefore, I find it hard to justify your claim that Satan took on the form of a man because he never did.



    In 2 Thess 2:9 & Rev 13:4 scripture says the beast "antichrist" receives power from Satan, thereby making him distinct from Satan. Regarding the False Prophet, Rev 13:12 says he, himself received power from the first beast (AC). Satan did not in any way manifest in human form. If you cannot understand what is written in plain language in scripture, you have a lot of studying to do.
    You say Rev 13:12 the second beast is receiving power from the first beast, this is a slight difference but I read it more as the first beast is ruling the world, and the second beast is using the authority of the first beast to cause all the world to worship the first beast, Also note this language "And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence" John uses this word here a lot to denote things in the presence of God elsewhere, for instance the angels in the presence of or before God. To me whether or not one sees Satan as being able to temporally indwell people to influence them or if he whispers in his ear(or however he influences people) It seems to me that the second beast is influencing the first beast, And we both agree the first beast Antichrist is influenced by Satan. And although I don't understand what you mean by the antichrist giving power to the false prophet, to me it seems scripture is more harmonised if the second beast is Satan. So im probably going to just agree to disagree with you on the identity of the second beast.

    Also It makes no sense to me if the second beast as the false prophet performs all these signs and miracles, would not that then mean people would worship him, yet it says he causes the world to worship the first beast, Again in verse 14, He was granted signs to do in the sight of again its that same word used in verse 12 in the presence of the first beast, so by all accounts it reads to me that the world thinks its the first beast performing the signs, yet its not they are deceived.


    Looks like you and I are singing from different hymn books because I have no idea where the "3 beats" you are talking about comes from? There are only 2 beats in Rev 13. I only mentioned Abaddon as the beast that kills the 2Ws.
    Two plus one equals three? Im not sure what the problem is with me saying you have three beasts involved in end times events and asking which one of the beasts do you see thrown alive into the Lof with the Fp, I now I see you are saying its the AC.
    Also, Abaddon is Satan's agent, so where in the Bible did you read that he killed the firstborn of Egypt? That particular deed was by an angel of God.
    Where do you read that abaddon is Satans agent?

    Exo 12:23 "for the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you.

    I see the Lord going through Egypt and taking an angel with Him, one who was authorised to kill those that were not protected by the blood.

    I see the angel with the Lord as Satan aka the destroying angel, not because he had authority to kill, for only God has the authority to decide over life and death.
    And combined with other accounts there seems to have been an angel who was given a physical role of destroying people, a lot of people associate this angel as the one named as the destroyer
    that comes out of the pit Rev 9 And more people including myself Also see him as Satan.

    1 chron 21:15 And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But as the angel was doing so, the LORD saw it and relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was destroying the people, "Enough! Withdraw your hand." The angel of the LORD was then standing at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.



    In Rev 17:8 we are told Abaddon went into perdition. That's the last account we have of him and his destruction occur long before the return of Christ when the AC+FP are cast into the lake of fire. I'm trying to help you - Satan did not manifest as a human in scripture.
    I don't understand again, You write abaddon went into perdition (as in past tense) and say it happens long before the return of Christ, are you amil in perspective?

    I appreciate your help, and realise too we are singing from different hymn books, but that's why I enjoy discussing not to try and alter your view but to better understand your view so it might help me





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  • DurbanDude
    replied
    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

    Unfortunately, you failed to cite the verse in Dan 10 that you referred to. With reference to the rest of your remarks, I will say that where scripture did not qualify a demon as a "beast" it makes no sense to assume it is. For example, Abaddon/Apollyon is clearly described as a beast in Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    However, I don't see the word 'beast' in Dan 7:17. If I'm wrong please correct me. I went on further to explain that a beast must at some point (if not always) manifest in human form. This will be the case when Abaddon, the angel of the bottomless pit kills the Two Witnesses!
    You seem to associate the beast with the demon Abaddon, yet deny beasts can be demons. Do I understand you correctly?

    Dan 7:17 does mention beasts:
    These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, shall arise out of the earth.

    It doesn't say if those beasts/kings are human kings or demon kings, but being just 4 kings relating to 4 kingdoms, instead of 50+ human kings, there is some logic to my position.

    In addition the first beast , the lion with wings is a symbol of the Babylonian demon Lamassu, and the bear is a symbol of the Persian demon Dobiel. Demon kings is certainly something to consider when understanding symbolic beasts.

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  • Trivalee
    replied
    Originally posted by boangry View Post
    I guess one of the differences between our views would be whether Satan took on the form of a man, My view sees Satan not only as a man, but as ruling over men or kingdoms, and being the prince of this world, I see Satan as entering Judas and the Lord commanding them to do quickly what they were about to do, (the reason the Lord used Satan to accomplish this could be that Judas was weak and liable to not lead the mob to the Lord.
    Satan influencing a human to do his bidding is not the same as Satan himself taking on or appearing in human form. The AC and his False Prophet will be humans that can be touched, however, there is no account of satan ever appearing as a human being. Therefore, I find it hard to justify your claim that Satan took on the form of a man because he never did.

    Also there are numerous verses that tie in the world rulers or kings with descriptions of Satan for example

    Eze 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

    Eze 28:12-13a Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God.

    Again, Ive always said there is a distinction between the beasts, As to the identity of them your position is duly noted, but this is what I see when I look at your position.

    The Man of sin (the Antichrist) according to 2thes 2 comes with the working of Satan, with all power, signs and lying wonders.

    The first beast comes with the working of the second beast, with all power signs and false miracles, and deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs.

    So I see that your making your false prophet perform exactly the same work and role as I see Satan does, yet I simply make scripture harmonise and conclude it is Satan.

    To me this makes sense because Jesus the son of God, is the Christ and also the prophet that is to come in likeness to Moses, that He is the Christ and the Prophet.

    I see the man of sin as His nemesis so to speak, he is the Antichrist and false prophet.

    When Moses was sent by God to tell the people to follow him out of Egypt, Moses said to God they will not listen to me, God said to Moses perform these signs and they will believe I sent you because of the signs . It is a dual purpose role provided by God.
    In 2 Thess 2:9 & Rev 13:4 scripture says the beast "antichrist" receives power from Satan, thereby making him distinct from Satan. Regarding the False Prophet, Rev 13:12 says he, himself received power from the first beast (AC). Satan did not in any way manifest in human form. If you cannot understand what is written in plain language in scripture, you have a lot of studying to do.

    I see your position also has three beasts, the Antichrist and the false prophet and Abaddon who comes up out of the pit, I personally see more problems with abaddon being the third beast than solutions, I presume most people see him as the angel who destroys the first born in Egypt, yet this seems to be all that is said about him if he is a separate entity.

    At least If I view him as Satan, I see elaborate detail about what he did throughout the old testament and the new, (hence the description in both Hebrew and Greek) that he was cast out of the world, or that he was bound, that he caused a war in heaven and was king of the 1/3 angels, That he played a role with the fall of man and death entering our world, That he will be put in the pit etc etc I mean to me it makes sense that Satan is attributed the description of the destroyer.

    Yet when I try and comprehend it from your viewpoint, that he is another king of the demons, what can I conclude from scripture, that he destroyed the firstborn in Egypt, and after he ascends and makes war against the two witnesses is that it? what did he do that he ended up in the pit, when and how did he get put in there, who are the demons in there with him?


    I get why you think this, from a human perspective it seems far fetched, so what can I say? Yet I still think with the word breath being used means scripture is indicating being given a spirit, In the same sense Adam was given breath, so the image built of the AC is given breath. rightly or wrongly im not going to discount it if I think it is what is being conveyed in the bible.

    Just a question so I can understand your view a wee bit better, when you have the beast and FP thrown alive into the lake of fire, do you see the beast as abaddon?

    Also If I can requote this,

    Would not most people say Satan rather than abaddon would fit your description of a beast or are you meaning just till Rev 13?
    Looks like you and I are singing from different hymn books because I have no idea where the "3 beats" you are talking about comes from? There are only 2 beats in Rev 13. I only mentioned Abaddon as the beast that kills the 2Ws. Also, Abaddon is Satan's agent, so where in the Bible did you read that he killed the firstborn of Egypt? That particular deed was by an angel of God.

    In Rev 17:8 we are told Abaddon went into perdition. That's the last account we have of him and his destruction occur long before the return of Christ when the AC+FP are cast into the lake of fire. I'm trying to help you - Satan did not manifest as a human in scripture.



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  • Trivalee
    replied
    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post

    Hi Trivalee,

    I agree that Satan is not the beast (Rev 13:4 confirms two entities). I also agree that the symbol of beast denotes a king, kingdom or individual that subjugate Israel.

    However I see nothing that precludes the beast from being a demon king. Daniel 10 confirms regional demon kings do exist.

    The beast comes up from the pit just like the demon king Apollyon, and like Satan will do at the end of the 1000 years, indicating that it's location is that of demons, being in that bottomless pit.

    In addition in Dan 7:17 there are only 4 kings associated with 4 entire kingdoms, not 50 or 100 human kings. This points to demon kings, not human kings, because there are no 4 human kings that can be especially identified with 4 kingdoms lasting thousands of years.

    Have you any verse that would indicate otherwise?
    Unfortunately, you failed to cite the verse in Dan 10 that you referred to. With reference to the rest of your remarks, I will say that where scripture did not qualify a demon as a "beast" it makes no sense to assume it is. For example, Abaddon/Apollyon is clearly described as a beast in Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    However, I don't see the word 'beast' in Dan 7:17. If I'm wrong please correct me. I went on further to explain that a beast must at some point (if not always) manifest in human form. This will be the case when Abaddon, the angel of the bottomless pit kills the Two Witnesses!

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  • Trivalee
    replied
    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    Re: The False Prophet




    This right here makes my point. If the war is still future with 3.5 years remaining after it happens, what would that obviously mean? It would mean since the creation of man up until this future war, satan would still have access to heaven. satan can't be bound in the pit while he still has access to heaven. So this would mean since the creation of man up until this future war, there would be at least 6000 years that he has continual access to heaven before getting kicked out unto the earth. In order for him to even emerge from the bp, an angel has to first come down from heaven in order to cast him into it for a thousand years. But if he still has access to heaven before he is cast to the earth, then only 3.5 years remaining once he is cast unto the earth, how could he have possibly been in the pit before this final 3.5 years? The pit is not in heaven. The pit is obviously in the earth. We're told the beast ascends from it. Ascend means up, so that means the beast is below the surface of the earth in order to ascend.
    I'm not sure of what ross is arguing, but one thing I know for sure is that Satan is not yet in the pit. How can he, when scripture says he's going about seeking who he may devour (1 Peter 5:8)?

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  • ewq1938
    replied
    Originally posted by boangry View Post

    At least If I view him as Satan, I see elaborate detail about what he did throughout the old testament and the new, (hence the description in both Hebrew and Greek) that he was cast out of the world, or that he was bound, that he caused a war in heaven and was king of the 1/3 angels, That he played a role with the fall of man and death entering our world, That he will be put in the pit etc etc I mean to me it makes sense that Satan is attributed the description of the destroyer.

    I also believe Satan will also be the Ac...multi roles.

    What I have prepared on this:

    Who is the wicked one spoken of in these verses?


    1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


    We all know this is satan.


    1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.


    We all know this is satan.


    1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.


    We all know this is satan.


    1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.


    We all know this is satan.


    Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


    Here we are told directly it is the devil!


    Now that we have that established:


    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:



    Paul calls the Antichrist three names, all names of Satan but "that Wicked" is the easiest to prove to be none other than Satan.


    Don't worry that this says "Wicked" while the others say "wicked one". It is the same wording, and the word "one" is added for clarity the other times.


    Matt 13:38
    38 Ho dé agrós estin ho kósmos Tó dé kalón spérma
    3588 1161 68 2076 3588 2889 3588 1161 2570 4690
    The field is the world; the good seed
    hoútoí eisin hoi huioí teés basileías Tá dé zizániá
    3778 1526 3588 5207 3588 932 3588 1161 2215
    are the children of the kingdom; the but tares
    eisin hoi huioí toú poneeroú
    1526 3588 5207 3588 4190 9999
    are the children of the wicked one;
    (Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright (c) 1994 by Biblesoft)

    9999 means the word "one" was added.



    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


    Realize that Paul is referring to what Isaiah wrote:


    Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
    Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
    Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
    Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;



    Satan is called the son of perdition because that's his fate:


    Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


    Isaiah makes clear it is Satan that is cast into that pit as well as the 5th trump which calls Satan the "angel of the pit", not to mention Satan being cast into the pit for 1000 years.

    So, Isaiah speaks of lucifer/satan and mentions things that Paul says the antichrist shall do, using the same examples we find in Isaiah. Then, we see the same things happening to satan in Revelation. It doesn't take much to realize Paul is saying satan will be the antichrist. We only need to connect the dots.





    2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


    Paul not only calls Satan the "man of sin" and the "son of perdition" but also calls him "that Wicked". Those three names should be enough for any bible reading Christian to fully recognize who Paul is speaking about.


    "whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"


    (the word after in the Greek does not mean "after" as in chronological order but "after" as in "like" or "according to")



    So why you ask does Paul say this Wicked person comes "after" the workings of Satan?


    Because it is Satan. He comes "after" or LIKE Satan because he is satan...this Antichrist "role" Satan will play is "like" himself because Satan likes to deceive with "power and signs and lying wonders"


    This is like saying "the Terminator is after or like the working of Arnold Schwarzenegger". Why is that? Because the Terminator is a ROLE Schwarzenegger played and was in fact Schwarzenegger all along just acting or pretending to be a machine from the future. The Antichrist will also be a ROLE that Satan plays (acting or pretending to be God), and yes, will have been Satan all along too. It is truly the greatest act of deception that will ever have been attempted and for a short time it will be extremely successful. Don't be deceived. If someone thinks the antichrist will be a human man influenced by satan, they have already been deceived. No wonder the antichrist will fool so many because they are pre-deceived before it ever happens.



    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    The falling away is Apostasy and that means Christians leaving the faith for a false God. It has no other meaning, so realize the horrible level of spiritual devastation that is coming to the "body of Christ"!


    Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


    So who is the beast that comes out of the pit and goes into perdition?


    Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


    Its Satan of course, the son of perdition. Perdition means to perish and that's what will happen to Satan after he ascends from the pit.



    Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


    Don't think the seven headed beast and the false prophet are literal things or people, its all symbology partially explained in Rev 17.


    Anyone looking for some wicked human antichrist-man is going to be fooled when Satan appears pretending to be Christ, known as the Antichrist. Do not be fooled by a type or foreshadow or similarity of the Antichrist. I have no doubt that some human man will come on the scene and make most Christians think he is fulfilling the Antichrist prophecies...but he wont be the actual AC, but only a type...only a trick to fool Christians looking for "an" Antichrist instead of "the" Antichrist.


    The Antichrist and the False prophet are one in the same, the same being. It's like saying a President and George Washington. The one often called the "political beast" is the first beast of Rev 13 which is a governmental system ruling the world and the "religious" beast is the false prophet/Antichrist whom is a single being that claims to be God and rules over the first beast and thus the world. All of that together with the deceived people worshipping him constitutes the whore Babylon which simply translates as "confusion".




    1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


    Antichrist will come, but until then many types of the AC shall come...do NOT fall for a type as the real thing. There are all those that deny Christ which makes them Antichrist's because they oppose Christ but the other thing John wrote about is the singular, specific one that is called Antichrist. He is not merely just one of the others. He is unique and he is the one that is most dangerous. He is called by many other names than Antichrist but Antichrist is the most used in Christianity.


    The AC will be Satan, a supernatural being who will claim to be God, specifically Jesus Christ. He will have "powers" and will look like and present himself as Christ and that's how he is able to fool the world, even Christians. Most Christians as yourself are expecting a human AC and Satan knows this and will take advantage of it.

    Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

    The Devil will cast some people into prison during the tribulation! Could he do that while acting in the role of the antichrist?

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; [font color=red]so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God[/font].
    2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


    Rev 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
    Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.



    Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
    Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
    Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

    Did you notice Lucifer, the fallen ANGEL will be in the pit?

    Rev 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
    Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.


    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


    Is it a coincidence that Lucifer/Satan wanted to do the same things the antichrist is prophesied to do? Can you imagine the level of deception if satan himself, the fallen archangel, were to pretend to be God? After being kicked out of heaven, doesn't it make sense that satan himself would try to be God on the world stage known as the great tribulation? The last time he really is allowed any power before Christ returns? It amazes me people are still thinking it's just going to be some man satan influences...

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  • boangry
    replied
    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    Re: The False Prophet



    The antichrist and his False Prophet are the "beasts", not Satan. The Biblical use of the word, 'beast' starting from the Book of Daniel, denotes those e.g. a king, kingdom or an individual that oppress and subjugate Israel. This means that the beast must be physical! Throughout scripture, Satan never took on human form, instead, he uses people to do his bidding.
    I guess one of the differences between our views would be whether Satan took on the form of a man, My view sees Satan not only as a man, but as ruling over men or kingdoms, and being the prince of this world, I see Satan as entering Judas and the Lord commanding them to do quickly what they were about to do, (the reason the Lord used Satan to accomplish this could be that Judas was weak and liable to not lead the mob to the Lord.

    Also there are numerous verses that tie in the world rulers or kings with descriptions of Satan for example

    Eze 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

    Eze 28:12-13a Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God.


    Rev 13 plainly shows that a distinction exists between the two beasts - the AC and his false prophet. If what is scripturally plain is lost to you, you are probably still drinking milk.
    Again, Ive always said there is a distinction between the beasts, As to the identity of them your position is duly noted, but this is what I see when I look at your position.

    The Man of sin (the Antichrist) according to 2thes 2 comes with the working of Satan, with all power, signs and lying wonders.

    The first beast comes with the working of the second beast, with all power signs and false miracles, and deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs.

    So I see that your making your false prophet perform exactly the same work and role as I see Satan does, yet I simply make scripture harmonise and conclude it is Satan.

    To me this makes sense because Jesus the son of God, is the Christ and also the prophet that is to come in likeness to Moses, that He is the Christ and the Prophet.

    I see the man of sin as His nemesis so to speak, he is the Antichrist and false prophet.

    When Moses was sent by God to tell the people to follow him out of Egypt, Moses said to God they will not listen to me, God said to Moses perform these signs and they will believe I sent you because of the signs . It is a dual purpose role provided by God.



    Well, you and the so-called commentators who believe Satan killed the 2Ws are wrong! In Rev 11:7 we are told that they are killed by the beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit. Satan is not in the pit now and couldn't be the culprit. However, Rev 9:11 tells who the killer is - Abaddon or Apollyon.
    I see your position also has three beasts, the Antichrist and the false prophet and Abaddon who comes up out of the pit, I personally see more problems with abaddon being the third beast than solutions, I presume most people see him as the angel who destroys the first born in Egypt, yet this seems to be all that is said about him if he is a separate entity.

    At least If I view him as Satan, I see elaborate detail about what he did throughout the old testament and the new, (hence the description in both Hebrew and Greek) that he was cast out of the world, or that he was bound, that he caused a war in heaven and was king of the 1/3 angels, That he played a role with the fall of man and death entering our world, That he will be put in the pit etc etc I mean to me it makes sense that Satan is attributed the description of the destroyer.

    Yet when I try and comprehend it from your viewpoint, that he is another king of the demons, what can I conclude from scripture, that he destroyed the firstborn in Egypt, and after he ascends and makes war against the two witnesses is that it? what did he do that he ended up in the pit, when and how did he get put in there, who are the demons in there with him?



    The scripture doesn't tell us that the image of the beast was cast into the lake of fire. Why? Because it is merely an image. Destroy the entity that empowered it and it becomes no more than wood, stone or whatever material it's made with. Thus in Rev 19:20 the AC+False Prophet are cast alive into the LoF. And nothing more was heard of the image.
    I get why you think this, from a human perspective it seems far fetched, so what can I say? Yet I still think with the word breath being used means scripture is indicating being given a spirit, In the same sense Adam was given breath, so the image built of the AC is given breath. rightly or wrongly im not going to discount it if I think it is what is being conveyed in the bible.

    Just a question so I can understand your view a wee bit better, when you have the beast and FP thrown alive into the lake of fire, do you see the beast as abaddon?

    Also If I can requote this,
    The Biblical use of the word, 'beast' starting from the Book of Daniel, denotes those e.g. a king, kingdom or an individual that oppress and subjugate Israel. This means that the beast must be physical! Throughout scripture, Satan never took on human form, instead, he uses people to do his bidding
    Would not most people say Satan rather than abaddon would fit your description of a beast or are you meaning just till Rev 13?



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  • DurbanDude
    replied
    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    Re: The False Prophet


    The antichrist and his False Prophet are the "beasts", not Satan. The Biblical use of the word, 'beast' starting from the Book of Daniel, denotes those e.g. a king, kingdom or an individual that oppress and subjugate Israel. This means that the beast must be physical! Throughout scripture, Satan never took on human form, instead, he uses people to do his bidding.


    Rev 13 plainly shows that a distinction exists between the two beasts - the AC and his false prophet.
    Hi Trivalee,

    I agree that Satan is not the beast (Rev 13:4 confirms two entities). I also agree that the symbol of beast denotes a king, kingdom or individual that subjugate Israel.

    However I see nothing that precludes the beast from being a demon king. Daniel 10 confirms regional demon kings do exist.

    The beast comes up from the pit just like the demon king Apollyon, and like Satan will do at the end of the 1000 years, indicating that it's location is that of demons, being in that bottomless pit.

    In addition in Dan 7:17 there are only 4 kings associated with 4 entire kingdoms, not 50 or 100 human kings. This points to demon kings, not human kings, because there are no 4 human kings that can be especially identified with 4 kingdoms lasting thousands of years.

    Have you any verse that would indicate otherwise?

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  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: The False Prophet

    Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
    How could Satan be in heaven starting rev 13 when he was kicked out of heaven in rev 12?
    Satan is not in heaven in Rev 13.

    Leave a comment:


  • divaD
    replied
    Re: The False Prophet

    Originally posted by ross3421 View Post



    The war is future and happens up to the last 3.5 years. Thus there is not 1000s of years between the war Rev 12 and the last 3.5 years. Not sure your point?

    This right here makes my point. If the war is still future with 3.5 years remaining after it happens, what would that obviously mean? It would mean since the creation of man up until this future war, satan would still have access to heaven. satan can't be bound in the pit while he still has access to heaven. So this would mean since the creation of man up until this future war, there would be at least 6000 years that he has continual access to heaven before getting kicked out unto the earth. In order for him to even emerge from the bp, an angel has to first come down from heaven in order to cast him into it for a thousand years. But if he still has access to heaven before he is cast to the earth, then only 3.5 years remaining once he is cast unto the earth, how could he have possibly been in the pit before this final 3.5 years? The pit is not in heaven. The pit is obviously in the earth. We're told the beast ascends from it. Ascend means up, so that means the beast is below the surface of the earth in order to ascend.

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  • ross3421
    replied
    Re: The False Prophet

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    He would either be where he is seen in verses 2-4,
    How could Satan be in heaven starting rev 13 when he was kicked out of heaven in rev 12?

    or where he is seen in verse 7 where he still had access to heaven until this war broke out
    How can he still have access to heaven in Rev 13 when he was kicked out of heaven after the war.????

    The war and battle occur just before the 3.5 years. Then Satan is kicked out before the 3.5 years starts.

    or where is he is seen in verses 13-17. So take your pick.
    Even if Satan was on earth in these verses how do you explain his 7 heads and 10 horns being in the pit. How and when did they get there? Which we then see coming up from the pit at the start of Rev 13.

    All of the above covers at least the past 2000 years. Where in any of those past 2000 years could he have ever been in the pit?
    Verses 13-17 he is actually in the pit. IE 3.5 years. And for the same 3.5 years in rev 13.

    So again. Satan cannot be in heaven at the start of rev 13. And he cannot be on earth with 7 heads and 10 horns coming up from the pit with himself with 7 heads and 10 horns on earth at the same time.

    Depending when he gets cast unto the earth, that means all of the rest of the time that preceded him getting cast to te earth, he still had access to heaven. That means there's at least 4000 years right there, maybe even 6000 years, where he still had access to heaven since it is not until this war breaks out that he no longer has access to heaven. Obviously that means he still had access to heaven since the creation of man, up until this war in heaven. If this war in heaven is still future to us, that means he still has access to heaven even now, thus at least 6000 years since the beginning of man. If this war in heaven was in the first century, it would only be 4000 years or so since the beginning of man, that he continued to have access to heaven.
    The war is future and happens up to the last 3.5 years. Thus there is not 1000s of years between the war Rev 12 and the last 3.5 years. Not sure your point?

    The last few posts don't seem like you, are you OK?

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  • Trivalee
    replied
    Re: The False Prophet

    Originally posted by boangry View Post
    But he was the serpent, and he is the dragon, I think You mean hes technically not designated as the beast, but who is?
    The antichrist and his False Prophet are the "beasts", not Satan. The Biblical use of the word, 'beast' starting from the Book of Daniel, denotes those e.g. a king, kingdom or an individual that oppress and subjugate Israel. This means that the beast must be physical! Throughout scripture, Satan never took on human form, instead, he uses people to do his bidding.

    The problem I have with this, would be the same as if you tried to tell me Jesus was not the prophet that was foretold to come, that he was not the deliverer in the vein of Moses, come to rescue his people, that He was only here in the role of Christ or conversely that Jesus was not the anointed one or the one chosen by God(the Christ) that he was just the prophet who was to deliver His people. Yet we can see and we know the role is one and the same they can not be split, the prophet performs signs and authenticates that he is the mouth piece of God.

    So I don't understand how or why the role needs split for the imposter to now become two imposters? maybe you can explain?
    Rev 13 plainly shows that a distinction exists between the two beasts - the AC and his false prophet. If what is scripturally plain is lost to you, you are probably still drinking milk.

    As ive said I don't understand how your reasoning can arrive to two different entities, so ill try and explain a bit more of why my reasoning has trouble seeing the AC as the second beast.

    Isaiah 14

    You said in your heart,
    “I will ascend to the heavens;
    I will raise my throne
    above the stars of God;
    I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
    on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.

    I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
    I will make myself like the Most High.”


    But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
    to the depths of the pit.


    Those who see you stare at you,
    they ponder your fate:
    “Is this the man who shook the earth
    and made kingdoms tremble

    A lot of the commentators I read have identified Satan as the beast the killing the two witnesses Rev 11:7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them and overcome them, and kill them. Which I have to agree with them, I can find scripture references for Satan being in the pit, but I cant find any for the AC being in the pit and coming out and killing the two witnesses?
    Well, you and the so-called commentators who believe Satan killed the 2Ws are wrong! In Rev 11:7 we are told that they are killed by the beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit. Satan is not in the pit now and couldn't be the culprit. However, Rev 9:11 tells who the killer is - Abaddon or Apollyon.

    As I said its a hard one, but then to me it says God gave the Second beast power to give breath to the image of the beast, if some people think that's supernaturally tricking people like putting a speaker in its mouth and talking from a hundred miles away then they are allowed to think that, but I still think Gods inspired Word is telling us it came to life(in what ever capacity) and to me it needs thrown into the LOF if this is indeed what has happened.
    The scripture doesn't tell us that the image of the beast was cast into the lake of fire. Why? Because it is merely an image. Destroy the entity that empowered it and it becomes no more than wood, stone or whatever material it's made with. Thus in Rev 19:20 the AC+False Prophet are cast alive into the LoF. And nothing more was heard of the image.

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  • divaD
    replied
    Re: The False Prophet

    Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
    Ok. can you then answer this question?

    Where is Satan at the start of Rev 13?
    Let's see if we can answer that with Rev 12.

    He would either be where he is seen in verses 2-4, or where he is seen in verse 7 where he still had access to heaven until this war broke out, or where is he is seen in verses 13-17. So take your pick. All of the above covers at least the past 2000 years. Where in any of those past 2000 years could he have ever been in the pit?


    Depending when he gets cast unto the earth, that means all of the rest of the time that preceded him getting cast to te earth, he still had access to heaven. That means there's at least 4000 years right there, maybe even 6000 years, where he still had access to heaven since it is not until this war breaks out that he no longer has access to heaven. Obviously that means he still had access to heaven since the creation of man, up until this war in heaven. If this war in heaven is still future to us, that means he still has access to heaven even now, thus at least 6000 years since the beginning of man. If this war in heaven was in the first century, it would only be 4000 years or so since the beginning of man, that he continued to have access to heaven.

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