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Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

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  • #31
    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

    Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    divaD, there's more to those specific verses I could also point out, but that's for starters ^
    I think I'm on the same page with you now, so it shouldn't be necessary for you to have to do that.

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    • #32
      Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

      Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
      But isn't it referring to the collective lot of deceivers that will arise in those days?
      One more thought I have one this point ^ …

      Where scripture speaks of the "and he shall confirm the/a covenant with the many FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]," I think that perhaps [or even, more likely] that it is not something like "2 separate parties agreeing on their separate sides of a contract" type thing, but more like "ALONG WITH the many" as they do the same thing (or agree to doing the same thing that) "he" is doing when "he" does this thing

      (and I think I've shown in past posts that where this exact word "the many" is used ELSEWHERE, it speaks of "Israel" [rather then something like surrounding countries or something]--I can't tell this for SURE, but I'm THINKING this is what the Hebrew text is conveying in Dan9:27a "with the many"... and that it's POSSIBLE that it is meaning "ALONG WITH the many" [/those of Israel])

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      • #33
        Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

        Originally posted by divaD View Post
        Ok I see your point now. Since 'tis' can mean 'certain', it therefore is a legit translation of the verse in question. But not that it has to mean 'certain', but because it can mean 'certain'.
        Right. It CAN legitimately be translated "A CERTAIN ONE" (and I think this is indeed the case for this Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR]" which correlates with the FIRST of the SEALS, i.e. SEAL #1 [as the OTHER SEALS also align with "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"])

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        • #34
          Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

          PS speaking of what I'd put in my Post #32... (hate that "EDIT" function is not working )… this is not to say I think it pertains to 100% of them, mind you

          [later in the chpt 12 context, it differentiates "the WISE [of Israel]" from those who are NOT wise and who do NOT "understand" at that point in the chronology, meaning 2nd half trib (of same/Israel, per context, as I see it)]

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          • #35
            Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

            Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
            The way I see THIS is, that in Matt24:23[24] (speaking of a LATER time-slot than what I've been speaking of in my previous posts of this thread) says (in v.23) [context: SECOND HALF of trib] "THEN [/at that time] if A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis] says unto you [proleptic 'you,' plural] 'See HERE the Christ, or HERE,' believe [it] not" (this person speaking of someone BESIDES themselves), and then the wording saying accompanied by "great signs and wonders," that THIS individual sounds very much aligned with what takes place in the Rev13:11-18 passage and there refers to the "ANOTHER beast" (the false prophet) and these kinds of "great wonders" and like things... and this is what I believe takes place IN THE SECOND HALF, aligning THESE sections of each passage... make sense??
            To be honest, I often battle to follow the logic of your posts, maybe because you use brackets a lot. This is one of those posts where I'm not sure what you mean.

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            • #36
              Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

              Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
              Some of the titles may be interchangeable, which of those characters do you identify any of these characters in the Olivet Discourse:
              A.THE antichrist?
              B. THE beast?
              C. THE false prophet?
              D. THE man of sin?
              E. None of the above?

              If you choose E, why are they not?

              Be Blessed
              The PuP
              I am not a Preterist, but I interpret the Olivet Discourse somewhat like Preterists, seeing it as fulfilled largely historically, with the exception of the 2nd Coming. The focus of the Discourse is on the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem in 70 AD. And the Tribulation following involve the Jewish Tribulation to take place from that time forward to the end of the age, including the suffering of Christians generally in a world in which nations turn away from God.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

                Originally posted by randyk View Post
                I am not a Preterist, but I interpret the Olivet Discourse somewhat like Preterists, seeing it as fulfilled largely historically, with the exception of the 2nd Coming. The focus of the Discourse is on the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem in 70 AD. And the Tribulation following involve the Jewish Tribulation to take place from that time forward to the end of the age, including the suffering of Christians generally in a world in which nations turn away from God.
                Doesn't the preterist camp incorporate the role of the beast of Daniel 7, in a historical fulfilment?

                Or what about that part of the discourse that covers [your words] "end of the age"? Is the beast of Daniel 7 historical or future? Are you saying that you don't see a historical or futuristic beast in the Olivet Discourse? Nor an antichrist [you answered E]?

                Be Blessed
                The PuP

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

                  Originally posted by divaD View Post
                  How many do you suppose currently living in that region even fits..."They only understand this if they are Christians who have read and heeded Matthew 24:15-17"?
                  None..........they don't Repent until after the Church is Raptured, during the 70th week, 75 days before the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem.

                  See Zechariah 13:8-9, where 1/3 of the Jews repent and 2/3 perish. Then in Zechariah 14:1-2 we see the AC Conquer Jerusalem and in verses 3 and 4 Jesus defeats the AC.

                  So 1/3 of the Jews will know to Flee Judea, but they only know when the Two-witnesses show up, at the 1335, which is 75 days BEFORE the 1260 and 45 days BEFORE the 1290. That's my point, those Jews repent before the 1290 and 1260 or else they wouldn't know to Flee Judea !!

                  WOW.....LOL.....I started this before the Bama game and got VERY DISTRACTED.........Oh well, we can't win them all.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

                    Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                    I believe the following verse (Matt24:5/Mk13:6) does ^ as you say, but not Matt24:4/Mk13:5 (which Grk word "G5100" can be translated "A CERTAIN ONE").

                    [recall, I'm saying that in my study of the chronology (etc), I believe ALL of the "beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (which parallel the SEALS) begin FOLLOWING "our Rapture/The Departure," including this INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5... 1Th5:2-3]" which is followed by many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that follow on from that INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR] So, I believe the WORDING of this specific verse is designed to be DISCOVERED ("understood") by those who will exist IN the trib JUST FOLLOWING our Rapture/The Departure... FOR THEIR "benefit" (to "grasp" what is now to transpire upon the earth, at/during that specific future time-period which will LEAD UP TO "His 2nd Coming to the earth" FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth)]
                    Let me add this. The essence of this small portion of scripture (Matt 24:4,5) is to not be deceived into believing by "a certain man" is that of a dual thrust.
                    Firstly, it is the deceptive lie that says "Christ has come". Secondly, the heart of that lie is "I am that Christ (that has come) ". It's a deception from a first person perspective. Its not, THEY have come, as in multiple Christ's, nor is of a third person perspective that many people are saying, "he has come". This is what we see later in the chapter, in verse 26 where "THEY say... He is in the desert...[or] in the secret place..." I would just personally add, this latter (in time) deception is going to be a much stronger type of deception as evidenced by the multitude of testimonies pointing to one individual, VERSUS one man "touting himself". This 3rd person tour of deception would be more appro pro to be referring to be pointing to a single man rather than the first. My personal opinion of Matt 24:4,5 is that this will be the "spiritual mood" of the world when they see the temple of God being rebuilt, aka messiah is near.

                    Be Blessed
                    The PuP

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

                      Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                      Doesn't the preterist camp incorporate the role of the beast of Daniel 7, in a historical fulfilment?

                      Or what about that part of the discourse that covers [your words] "end of the age"? Is the beast of Daniel 7 historical or future? Are you saying that you don't see a historical or futuristic beast in the Olivet Discourse? Nor an antichrist [you answered E]?

                      Be Blessed
                      The PuP
                      As I said I'm not a Preterist, and don't know all the nuances of the Preterist interpretations. My recollection is that they see pretty much everything as historically fulfilled, except that Partial Preterists see the 2nd Coming as future. The Beast would be, I think, the ancient Roman Empire, and the Abomination of Desolation would be, as I agree, the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans in 70 AD.

                      I also think the 4th Beast of Dan 7 is the ancient Roman Empire. But I think the Beast continues throughout the present age until the rise of Antichrist himself. Rome fell in 476 AD, but the Eastern Empire continued, under Constantinople, until 1453 AD. The government of Rome, however, continued also in the West under its new leadership, and ultimately evolved into the Holy Roman Empire.

                      According to Daniel the 4th Empire would fragment into 10 nations, which would then be confederated under the Antichrist. That's what I believe. As we read the book of Revelation, we can see in the language the use of ancient Roman symbols a picture into the last days appearance of the Antichristian Empire.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

                        Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                        Some of the titles may be interchangeable, which of those characters do you identify any of these characters in the Olivet Discourse:
                        A.THE antichrist?
                        B. THE beast?
                        C. THE false prophet?
                        D. THE man of sin?
                        E. None of the above?
                        As long as B is talking about the second beast, then all are the same person. This person is the AoD mentioned in the OD.
                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

                          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                          As long as B is talking about the second beast, then all are the same person. This person is the AoD mentioned in the OD.
                          The text of the Olivet Discourse reveals that the AoD precedes and initiates the great tribulation "of those days" and that it is only AFTER the tribulation of "those days" that the stars of heaven fall at the owning of the 6th seal. This is the same as when satan is cast out of heaven. And it is only after that time (6th seal) that the powers of heaven are shaken, only to be followed by the coming of Christ WITH THE KINGDOM at the 7th trumpet. We also know that the 42 months (1239 days) begins AFTER Satan is cast out of heaven, which happen AFTER the AoD. The events of Rev 12 through 14 are concurrent to the events from the 6th seal unto the 7th trumpet. The gathering of the elect with a trumpet can not be taking place later (at Armageddon) because this would contradict Paul 's systems that the kingdom of God is inherited at the last trumpet, because that would mean that there would be 2 last trumpets.


                          Mat 24:15 KJVWhen ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
                          Mat 24:21-22 KJVFor then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except THOSE DAYS should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

                          "THOSE DAYS" refers to WHEN the AoD is seen, which will be followed by great tribulation.

                          Mat 24:29 KJVImmediately after the tribulation of THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

                          There we see numerous events that are to follow "AFTER the tribulation of THOSE DAYS".

                          Mar 13:14 KJVBut when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
                          Mar 13:19-20 KJVFor in THOSE DAYS shall be affliction, such as was not (unparalleled) from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
                          Mar 13:24-25 KJVBut in THOSE DAYS, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

                          This was the exact parallel to Matthew where we see the following order of events: AoD, G.T.,Sun, Moon, Stars, Powers shaken.

                          Mat 24:3 KJVAnd as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the SIGN of thy COMING, and of the end of the world?

                          The disciples asked for the sign of the parousia/ coming.
                          Mat 24:30 KJVAnd then shall appear the SIGN of the Son of man in heaven:

                          The Sign is given just prior to (and IS NOT) the coming of Jesus.

                          and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
                          Mar 13:26 KJVAnd THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
                          Luk 21:27 KJV And THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

                          What accompanies his erchomai?

                          Mat 24:31 KJVAnd he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
                          Mar 13:27 KJVAnd then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

                          The gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other. Of particular note is the great trumpet that Matthew tells.

                          Because the stars falling in Rev 6:12ff is the same event as Satan and his angels of Rev 12, AND, the concluding events of the O.D. (coming & gathering of elect), matches the 7th trumpet and Jesus's appearance with the 144,000 on Mt Zion, in Rev 14, the coming of Jesus with the trumpet in the O.D. is the same as the 7th trumpet arrival of the kingdom.

                          Because 1 Cor 15 reveals that the kingdom is inherited at the LAST trumpet, the coming of Jesus (with a trumpet) in the O.D. cannot be his coming at Armageddon, BECAUSE it would be a trumpet that takes place AFTER the 7th, making for 2 LAST trumpets.



                          To build upon the notion that the trumpet of Matt 24:31 is indeed the same as the 7th trumpet of Rev 11 AND the LAST trumpet of 1Cor15, where, in both instances, the kingdom of God is ushered in, let is look at the parable of the fig tree. (Selective verses).

                          Mat 24:33 KJVSo likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that IT IS NEAR, even at the doors.
                          Mat 24:36 KJVBut of THAT DAY and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
                          Mat 24:44 KJVTherefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man COMETH.

                          THERE I emphasized THAT DAY... IS NEAR...refers to the coming of the Son of man.

                          Mar 13:29 KJVSo ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that IT IS NIGH, even at the doors.
                          Mar 13:32 KJVBut of THAT DAY and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
                          Mar 13:36 KJVLest COMING suddenly he find you sleeping.

                          THERE i emphasised THAT DAY... IS NIGH...refers again to HIS COMING.

                          Luk 21:31 KJVSo likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the "KINGDOM of GOD" IS NIGH at hand.
                          Luk 21:34-35 KJVAnd take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so THAT DAY come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

                          AND in this passage, I emphasized THAT DAY...IS NIGH...is referring to the KINGDOM of GOD.

                          All three accounts say THAT DAY is "NEAR/ NIGH". THAT DAY is both the COMING of Jesus & the KINGDOM of GOD. The details of the Olivet Discourse reveal that that day is referring to the erchomai coming of Jesus [after all these events] and not the parousia. Furthermore, Paul equates the DOTL coming like a thief with Luke saying that it shall come as a snare upon all the earth.

                          1Th 5:2 KJV For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

                          Going now to the account of the 7 trumpets, with the 7th being the Coming of the Lord with the kingdom of God, we find that the trumpets are the same events found in the book of Joel that precedes the coming DOTL with the coming of Elijah, as one of the 2 witnesses that also is said to precede the DOTL. What we have now shown is that the 7th trumpet is indeed the coming DOTL that will include the coming of the Son of man.

                          What is noticeably absent from the O.D.? The revelation of the man of sin! Or is it? The O.D. states that the powers of heaven shall be shaken AFTER those days of great tribulation. Not only do we have Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven at the 6th seal, but we also have an angel fall from heaven at the 5th trumpet who usurps the authority of the bottomless pit. And because we have Rev 12 through 14 covering this same period of time from the 6th seal to the 7th trumpet, we also have the 2 beasts that rise from the sea and earth, who are given their authority from the dragon, and not God. All of this mimics the words of Paul from 2 Thess 2 in that the man of sin is revealed [JUST] BEFORE the DAY of Christ, aka, the Lord, shall come.

                          2Th 2:3 KJV Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

                          What we essentially have is that the 5th trumpet and/or one of the beasts equals the revelation of man of sin. The AoD, which takes place BEFORE the powers of the heavens are shaken cannot be the tevelation of the man of sin, which takes place just before the DOTL begins at the 7th trumpet.

                          Not only does Jesus come with the kingdom at the 7th trumpet, but he gathers the elect unto himself to Mt Zion:

                          Rev 14:1 KJV And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

                          Be Blessed
                          The PuP

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

                            Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                            The text of the Olivet Discourse reveals that the AoD precedes and initiates the great tribulation "of those days" and that it is only AFTER the tribulation of "those days" that the stars of heaven fall at the owning of the 6th seal. This is the same as when satan is cast out of heaven. And it is only after that time (6th seal) that the powers of heaven are shaken, only to be followed by the coming of Christ WITH THE KINGDOM at the 7th trumpet. We also know that the 42 months (1239 days) begins AFTER Satan is cast out of heaven, which happen AFTER the AoD. The events of Rev 12 through 14 are concurrent to the events from the 6th seal unto the 7th trumpet. The gathering of the elect with a trumpet can not be taking place later (at Armageddon) because this would contradict Paul 's systems that the kingdom of God is inherited at the last trumpet, because that would mean that there would be 2 last trumpets.

                            So when are you indicating this initially occurs....This is the same as when satan is cast out of heaven.? Kind of hard to tell from the way you put it, thus why I'm inquiring.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

                              Originally posted by divaD View Post
                              So when are you indicating this initially occurs....This is the same as when satan is cast out of heaven.? Kind of hard to tell from the way you put it, thus why I'm inquiring.
                              I mention several events, so I am not real sure what you need to be clarified. So let me start with Rev 12 that says that the woman is fed in the wilderness
                              from the face of the serpent FOR A time, times and a half and/or 1260 days. Whereas, the times of the beast equal 42 months, which equals 1239 (+/- 1) days, meaning that Satan is cast out approx. 21 days before the 42 months begin. It could be different if the ending points (of the 42 months and 1260 days are different). Let me insert a personal note here. To equate 42 months, or time, times & a half, to be equal to the 1260 days is to find yourself part & parcel with the philosophy of the "antichrist" who wishes to change times and seasons. A so-called "prophetic" month of 30 days is that inordinate unscriptural philosophy. The scriptures ONLY give rise to a lunar month calendar system, that amounts to months of 29 and 30 day lengths, with 12 months equaling 354 days. Time, times, and half, 1260 days, and 42 months are all non-congruent lengths of time.

                              Because the AoD happens before the G.T., which happens before Satan is cast out, which happens before the powers of the heavens are shaken, this means that the AoD IS NOT the same thing as when the man of sin is revealed. I equate his revelation with this time when the powers of heaven are shaken. This equates to one or more of thee following: 5th trumpet, beast from the sea, or beast from the earth.

                              Jesus comes with the kingdom at the 7th trumpet a short period of time after the "man of sin is revealed first, 2 Thess 2". This also corresponds to the "another" that arises after the first 10 horns, who subdues the other 3 kings that arise from the earth.
                              I.e. the 4th king subdues the other 3 kings that arise from the earth. This is in addition to the little horn uprooting 3 of the first 10 horns.
                              Dan 7:24 KJV And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

                              This period of time is stated to last for Time, Times, and the "Dividing" of Time. [not half a time]. Although this could technically be any where from 3 years, 1 month UPTO 3 years 11 months, but because this king arises after the little horn breaks the whole world into pieces, it is a period of time less than 3 years and 6 months. This also means that it corresponds to some time after Satan is cast out of heaven for his time, times and half a time. I hope this answered your question. I'll be glad to further clarify that or any other question.

                              Be Blessed
                              The PuP

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

                                Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                                The text of the Olivet Discourse reveals that the AoD precedes and initiates the great tribulation "of those days" and that it is only AFTER the tribulation of "those days" that the stars of heaven fall at the owning of the 6th seal.
                                I can't agree. The AoD is clearly a part of the tribulation events.
                                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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