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Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

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  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    It looks like to me this makes you two on the same then. Well make that 3, I'm on the same page as well.
    Great. I've been saying this forever but people usually don't agree

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  • divaD
    replied
    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post






    That definitely happens after the GT is over. It's the 7th trump/second coming of Christ. The 6th seal speaks of those events but the events are still future at the time of the opening.
    It looks like to me this makes you two on the same then. Well make that 3, I'm on the same page as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    But you are still disagreeing with Jesus when he said that the g.t. happens before the stars fall from heaven.

    No, the GT happens before that happens. The issue is the seals are opened before the GT so nothing the seals describe means those events were happening at the time of the opening.



    Mat 24:29 KJV Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    That definitely happens after the GT is over. It's the 7th trump/second coming of Christ. The 6th seal speaks of those events but the events are still future at the time of the opening.

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  • Pesachpup
    replied
    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No. Scripture says no trumpets are handed out until after the 7th seal was opened so all seals are opened before any trump sounds and they don't sound immediately after that either. We don't know how much time passes but there is a clear gap between the 7th seal and when the trumps begin to sound.

    Rev 8:1* And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.*
    Rev 8:2* And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.*
    But you are still disagreeing with Jesus when he said that the g.t. happens before the stars fall from heaven.

    Mat 24:29 KJV Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    Be Blessed
    The PuP

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No. Scripture says no trumpets are handed out until after the 7th seal was opened so all seals are opened before any trump sounds and they don't sound immediately after that either. We don't know how much time passes but there is a clear gap between the 7th seal and when the trumps begin to sound.

    Rev 8:1* And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.*
    Rev 8:2* And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.*
    But you are still disagreeing with Jesus when he said that the g.t. happens before the stars fall from heaven.

    Mat 24:29 KJV Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    Be Blessed
    The PuP

    Leave a comment:


  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    If the seals are sequential and the trumpets are concurrent with the trumpets, then that means that you believe that those (concurrent) trumpets sound before the 6th seal is opened. Is that what you believe?
    No. Scripture says no trumpets are handed out until after the 7th seal was opened so all seals are opened before any trump sounds and they don't sound immediately after that either. We don't know how much time passes but there is a clear gap between the 7th seal and when the trumps begin to sound.

    Rev 8:1* And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.*
    Rev 8:2* And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.*

    Leave a comment:


  • Pesachpup
    replied
    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    All the seals are opened long before the GT. The seals only show glimpses of events that happen in the various trumps. The events the seals describe do not happen at the time of the opening. The 6th seal that was opened shows events of the 7th trump. Basically the seals give us information of things to come, and the trumps are the things to come actually happening. Christ does not return in the 6th seal and then a second time in the 7th trump...That tells us the first was showing us what would happen later.
    If the seals are sequential and the trumpets are concurrent with the trumpets, then that means that you believe that those (concurrent) trumpets sound before the 6th seal is opened. Is that what you believe?

    Be Blessed
    The PuP

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    All the seals are opened long before the GT. The seals only show glimpses of events that happen in the various trumps. The events the seals describe do not happen at the time of the opening. The 6th seal that was opened shows events of the 7th trump. Basically the seals give us information of things to come, and the trumps are the things to come actually happening. Christ does not return in the 6th seal and then a second time in the 7th trump...That tells us the first was showing us what would happen later.
    If the seals are sequential and the trumpets are concurrent with the trumpets, then that means that you believe that those (concurrent) trumpets sound before the 6th seal is opened. Is that what you believe?

    Be Blessed
    The PuP

    Leave a comment:


  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Essentially, Jesus says that the great tribulation of those days precedes the opening of the 6th seal.
    All the seals are opened long before the GT. The seals only show glimpses of events that happen in the various trumps. The events the seals describe do not happen at the time of the opening. The 6th seal that was opened shows events of the 7th trump. Basically the seals give us information of things to come, and the trumps are the things to come actually happening. Christ does not return in the 6th seal and then a second time in the 7th trump...That tells us the first was showing us what would happen later.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pesachpup
    replied
    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I can't agree. The AoD is clearly a part of the tribulation events.
    I would say that the AoD is concurrent with the start of the (great) tribulation of those days, so I believe we are in agreement on that part. When Jesus says (multiple times) "in those days", I believe that he is alluding to "that/ this generation" that shall see all these things" come to pass:

    Mat 24:34 KJV Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    The thing that I wanted/ want to point out is that Jesus gives us an ordering to the events "of those days"

    Mat 24:29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER the "tribulation" of THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    And so, the "tribulation of those days" does not include the darkened sun, lightless moon, stars falling from heaven [the 6th seal] nor the powers of the heaven being shaken [Nor the erchomai/ coming of Jesus]. Essentially, Jesus says that the great tribulation of those days precedes the opening of the 6th seal. This is why I stand by my conviction to say that Paul does not have the AoD in mind when he talks about the revelation of the man of sin.

    Be Blessed
    The PuP

    Leave a comment:


  • divaD
    replied
    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    I mention several events, so I am not real sure what you need to be clarified. So let me start with Rev 12 that says that the woman is fed in the wilderness
    from the face of the serpent FOR A time, times and a half and/or 1260 days. Whereas, the times of the beast equal 42 months, which equals 1239 (+/- 1) days, meaning that Satan is cast out approx. 21 days before the 42 months begin. It could be different if the ending points (of the 42 months and 1260 days are different). Let me insert a personal note here. To equate 42 months, or time, times & a half, to be equal to the 1260 days is to find yourself part & parcel with the philosophy of the "antichrist" who wishes to change times and seasons. A so-called "prophetic" month of 30 days is that inordinate unscriptural philosophy. The scriptures ONLY give rise to a lunar month calendar system, that amounts to months of 29 and 30 day lengths, with 12 months equaling 354 days. Time, times, and half, 1260 days, and 42 months are all non-congruent lengths of time.

    Because the AoD happens before the G.T., which happens before Satan is cast out, which happens before the powers of the heavens are shaken, this means that the AoD IS NOT the same thing as when the man of sin is revealed. I equate his revelation with this time when the powers of heaven are shaken. This equates to one or more of thee following: 5th trumpet, beast from the sea, or beast from the earth.

    Jesus comes with the kingdom at the 7th trumpet a short period of time after the "man of sin is revealed first, 2 Thess 2". This also corresponds to the "another" that arises after the first 10 horns, who subdues the other 3 kings that arise from the earth.
    I.e. the 4th king subdues the other 3 kings that arise from the earth. This is in addition to the little horn uprooting 3 of the first 10 horns.
    Dan 7:24 KJV And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    This period of time is stated to last for Time, Times, and the "Dividing" of Time. [not half a time]. Although this could technically be any where from 3 years, 1 month UPTO 3 years 11 months, but because this king arises after the little horn breaks the whole world into pieces, it is a period of time less than 3 years and 6 months. This also means that it corresponds to some time after Satan is cast out of heaven for his time, times and half a time. I hope this answered your question. I'll be glad to further clarify that or any other question.

    Be Blessed
    The PuP
    Now that you have clarified, I would say you and I are basically seeing a lot of this the same. Initially I thought you may have meant satan gets cast out after the trib of those days, where I would have disagreed with that. But since you weren't meaning that, I then don't really have anything to dispute in that post, which is good of course.

    Leave a comment:


  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    The text of the Olivet Discourse reveals that the AoD precedes and initiates the great tribulation "of those days" and that it is only AFTER the tribulation of "those days" that the stars of heaven fall at the owning of the 6th seal.
    I can't agree. The AoD is clearly a part of the tribulation events.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pesachpup
    replied
    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    So when are you indicating this initially occurs....This is the same as when satan is cast out of heaven.? Kind of hard to tell from the way you put it, thus why I'm inquiring.
    I mention several events, so I am not real sure what you need to be clarified. So let me start with Rev 12 that says that the woman is fed in the wilderness
    from the face of the serpent FOR A time, times and a half and/or 1260 days. Whereas, the times of the beast equal 42 months, which equals 1239 (+/- 1) days, meaning that Satan is cast out approx. 21 days before the 42 months begin. It could be different if the ending points (of the 42 months and 1260 days are different). Let me insert a personal note here. To equate 42 months, or time, times & a half, to be equal to the 1260 days is to find yourself part & parcel with the philosophy of the "antichrist" who wishes to change times and seasons. A so-called "prophetic" month of 30 days is that inordinate unscriptural philosophy. The scriptures ONLY give rise to a lunar month calendar system, that amounts to months of 29 and 30 day lengths, with 12 months equaling 354 days. Time, times, and half, 1260 days, and 42 months are all non-congruent lengths of time.

    Because the AoD happens before the G.T., which happens before Satan is cast out, which happens before the powers of the heavens are shaken, this means that the AoD IS NOT the same thing as when the man of sin is revealed. I equate his revelation with this time when the powers of heaven are shaken. This equates to one or more of thee following: 5th trumpet, beast from the sea, or beast from the earth.

    Jesus comes with the kingdom at the 7th trumpet a short period of time after the "man of sin is revealed first, 2 Thess 2". This also corresponds to the "another" that arises after the first 10 horns, who subdues the other 3 kings that arise from the earth.
    I.e. the 4th king subdues the other 3 kings that arise from the earth. This is in addition to the little horn uprooting 3 of the first 10 horns.
    Dan 7:24 KJV And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    This period of time is stated to last for Time, Times, and the "Dividing" of Time. [not half a time]. Although this could technically be any where from 3 years, 1 month UPTO 3 years 11 months, but because this king arises after the little horn breaks the whole world into pieces, it is a period of time less than 3 years and 6 months. This also means that it corresponds to some time after Satan is cast out of heaven for his time, times and half a time. I hope this answered your question. I'll be glad to further clarify that or any other question.

    Be Blessed
    The PuP

    Leave a comment:


  • divaD
    replied
    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    The text of the Olivet Discourse reveals that the AoD precedes and initiates the great tribulation "of those days" and that it is only AFTER the tribulation of "those days" that the stars of heaven fall at the owning of the 6th seal. This is the same as when satan is cast out of heaven. And it is only after that time (6th seal) that the powers of heaven are shaken, only to be followed by the coming of Christ WITH THE KINGDOM at the 7th trumpet. We also know that the 42 months (1239 days) begins AFTER Satan is cast out of heaven, which happen AFTER the AoD. The events of Rev 12 through 14 are concurrent to the events from the 6th seal unto the 7th trumpet. The gathering of the elect with a trumpet can not be taking place later (at Armageddon) because this would contradict Paul 's systems that the kingdom of God is inherited at the last trumpet, because that would mean that there would be 2 last trumpets.

    So when are you indicating this initially occurs....This is the same as when satan is cast out of heaven.? Kind of hard to tell from the way you put it, thus why I'm inquiring.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pesachpup
    replied
    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    As long as B is talking about the second beast, then all are the same person. This person is the AoD mentioned in the OD.
    The text of the Olivet Discourse reveals that the AoD precedes and initiates the great tribulation "of those days" and that it is only AFTER the tribulation of "those days" that the stars of heaven fall at the owning of the 6th seal. This is the same as when satan is cast out of heaven. And it is only after that time (6th seal) that the powers of heaven are shaken, only to be followed by the coming of Christ WITH THE KINGDOM at the 7th trumpet. We also know that the 42 months (1239 days) begins AFTER Satan is cast out of heaven, which happen AFTER the AoD. The events of Rev 12 through 14 are concurrent to the events from the 6th seal unto the 7th trumpet. The gathering of the elect with a trumpet can not be taking place later (at Armageddon) because this would contradict Paul 's systems that the kingdom of God is inherited at the last trumpet, because that would mean that there would be 2 last trumpets.


    Mat 24:15 KJVWhen ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
    Mat 24:21-22 KJVFor then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except THOSE DAYS should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    "THOSE DAYS" refers to WHEN the AoD is seen, which will be followed by great tribulation.

    Mat 24:29 KJVImmediately after the tribulation of THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    There we see numerous events that are to follow "AFTER the tribulation of THOSE DAYS".

    Mar 13:14 KJVBut when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
    Mar 13:19-20 KJVFor in THOSE DAYS shall be affliction, such as was not (unparalleled) from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
    Mar 13:24-25 KJVBut in THOSE DAYS, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

    This was the exact parallel to Matthew where we see the following order of events: AoD, G.T.,Sun, Moon, Stars, Powers shaken.

    Mat 24:3 KJVAnd as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the SIGN of thy COMING, and of the end of the world?

    The disciples asked for the sign of the parousia/ coming.
    Mat 24:30 KJVAnd then shall appear the SIGN of the Son of man in heaven:

    The Sign is given just prior to (and IS NOT) the coming of Jesus.

    and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mar 13:26 KJVAnd THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
    Luk 21:27 KJV And THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    What accompanies his erchomai?

    Mat 24:31 KJVAnd he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    Mar 13:27 KJVAnd then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    The gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other. Of particular note is the great trumpet that Matthew tells.

    Because the stars falling in Rev 6:12ff is the same event as Satan and his angels of Rev 12, AND, the concluding events of the O.D. (coming & gathering of elect), matches the 7th trumpet and Jesus's appearance with the 144,000 on Mt Zion, in Rev 14, the coming of Jesus with the trumpet in the O.D. is the same as the 7th trumpet arrival of the kingdom.

    Because 1 Cor 15 reveals that the kingdom is inherited at the LAST trumpet, the coming of Jesus (with a trumpet) in the O.D. cannot be his coming at Armageddon, BECAUSE it would be a trumpet that takes place AFTER the 7th, making for 2 LAST trumpets.



    To build upon the notion that the trumpet of Matt 24:31 is indeed the same as the 7th trumpet of Rev 11 AND the LAST trumpet of 1Cor15, where, in both instances, the kingdom of God is ushered in, let is look at the parable of the fig tree. (Selective verses).

    Mat 24:33 KJVSo likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that IT IS NEAR, even at the doors.
    Mat 24:36 KJVBut of THAT DAY and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    Mat 24:44 KJVTherefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man COMETH.

    THERE I emphasized THAT DAY... IS NEAR...refers to the coming of the Son of man.

    Mar 13:29 KJVSo ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that IT IS NIGH, even at the doors.
    Mar 13:32 KJVBut of THAT DAY and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
    Mar 13:36 KJVLest COMING suddenly he find you sleeping.

    THERE i emphasised THAT DAY... IS NIGH...refers again to HIS COMING.

    Luk 21:31 KJVSo likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the "KINGDOM of GOD" IS NIGH at hand.
    Luk 21:34-35 KJVAnd take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so THAT DAY come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

    AND in this passage, I emphasized THAT DAY...IS NIGH...is referring to the KINGDOM of GOD.

    All three accounts say THAT DAY is "NEAR/ NIGH". THAT DAY is both the COMING of Jesus & the KINGDOM of GOD. The details of the Olivet Discourse reveal that that day is referring to the erchomai coming of Jesus [after all these events] and not the parousia. Furthermore, Paul equates the DOTL coming like a thief with Luke saying that it shall come as a snare upon all the earth.

    1Th 5:2 KJV For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    Going now to the account of the 7 trumpets, with the 7th being the Coming of the Lord with the kingdom of God, we find that the trumpets are the same events found in the book of Joel that precedes the coming DOTL with the coming of Elijah, as one of the 2 witnesses that also is said to precede the DOTL. What we have now shown is that the 7th trumpet is indeed the coming DOTL that will include the coming of the Son of man.

    What is noticeably absent from the O.D.? The revelation of the man of sin! Or is it? The O.D. states that the powers of heaven shall be shaken AFTER those days of great tribulation. Not only do we have Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven at the 6th seal, but we also have an angel fall from heaven at the 5th trumpet who usurps the authority of the bottomless pit. And because we have Rev 12 through 14 covering this same period of time from the 6th seal to the 7th trumpet, we also have the 2 beasts that rise from the sea and earth, who are given their authority from the dragon, and not God. All of this mimics the words of Paul from 2 Thess 2 in that the man of sin is revealed [JUST] BEFORE the DAY of Christ, aka, the Lord, shall come.

    2Th 2:3 KJV Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    What we essentially have is that the 5th trumpet and/or one of the beasts equals the revelation of man of sin. The AoD, which takes place BEFORE the powers of the heavens are shaken cannot be the tevelation of the man of sin, which takes place just before the DOTL begins at the 7th trumpet.

    Not only does Jesus come with the kingdom at the 7th trumpet, but he gathers the elect unto himself to Mt Zion:

    Rev 14:1 KJV And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    Be Blessed
    The PuP

    Leave a comment:


  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Some of the titles may be interchangeable, which of those characters do you identify any of these characters in the Olivet Discourse:
    A.THE antichrist?
    B. THE beast?
    C. THE false prophet?
    D. THE man of sin?
    E. None of the above?
    As long as B is talking about the second beast, then all are the same person. This person is the AoD mentioned in the OD.

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  • randyk
    replied
    Re: Who's in, who's out (of the Olivet Discourse)?

    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Doesn't the preterist camp incorporate the role of the beast of Daniel 7, in a historical fulfilment?

    Or what about that part of the discourse that covers [your words] "end of the age"? Is the beast of Daniel 7 historical or future? Are you saying that you don't see a historical or futuristic beast in the Olivet Discourse? Nor an antichrist [you answered E]?

    Be Blessed
    The PuP
    As I said I'm not a Preterist, and don't know all the nuances of the Preterist interpretations. My recollection is that they see pretty much everything as historically fulfilled, except that Partial Preterists see the 2nd Coming as future. The Beast would be, I think, the ancient Roman Empire, and the Abomination of Desolation would be, as I agree, the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans in 70 AD.

    I also think the 4th Beast of Dan 7 is the ancient Roman Empire. But I think the Beast continues throughout the present age until the rise of Antichrist himself. Rome fell in 476 AD, but the Eastern Empire continued, under Constantinople, until 1453 AD. The government of Rome, however, continued also in the West under its new leadership, and ultimately evolved into the Holy Roman Empire.

    According to Daniel the 4th Empire would fragment into 10 nations, which would then be confederated under the Antichrist. That's what I believe. As we read the book of Revelation, we can see in the language the use of ancient Roman symbols a picture into the last days appearance of the Antichristian Empire.

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